DMU conversions for Sheffield Exchange

[EddieK]

If it eases your mind about not finding the conversion kit. 114s didn't , so far as I'm aware, run in the NEReg, and certainly not in that period. 

The whole fleet was based at Lincoln from 1956, until LN closed in the mid 80s and they migrated to Tyseley for their last few years

 

The 114s were slightly odd in that when they went through the refurbishment scheme, the wore the "South Yorkshire PTE" symbols, implying that the PTE had funded the refurbs, even though they lived in Lincolnshire. In the early to mid 80s, I got the impression that Eastern Region DMUs used around the Yorkshire area (and beyond the county boundaries) tended to be regarded as a sort of common pool, regardless of being allocated to Lincoln, Neville Hill, Botanic Gardens or Hammerton Street. My one and only ride from Rowntrees Halt to York (and onwards to Selby) was in a 114.

In spite of this common pool, I presume that units returned to nominal home depot for maintenance or significant repair.

As an aside, I have heard of cases where Neville Hill units ended-up overnight at Newton Heath and were then "borrowed" on the basis that they were better than NH's own fleet...

[Ravenser]

The 114s were slightly odd in that when they went through the refurbishment scheme, the wore the "South Yorkshire PTE" symbols, implying that the PTE had funded the refurbs, even though they lived in Lincolnshire. In the early to mid 80s, I got the impression that Eastern Region DMUs used around the Yorkshire area (and beyond the county boundaries) tended to be regarded as a sort of common pool, regardless of being allocated to Lincoln, Neville Hill, Botanic Gardens or Hammerton Street. My one and only ride from Rowntrees Halt to York (and onwards to Selby) was in a 114.

In spite of this common pool, I presume that units returned to nominal home depot for maintenance or significant repair.

As an aside, I have heard of cases where Neville Hill units ended-up overnight at Newton Heath and were then "borrowed" on the basis that they were better than NH's own fleet...

 

The 114s were always common at Sheffield, where they worked in from Lincolnshire. I think S Yorkshire PTE services may have been largely supported from LN - there wasn't a DMU depot in Sheffield.

 

But I don't recall seeing much in the way of NL, BG or Hammerton St units in Lincolnshire - possibly the odd NL unit , certainly not the rest. (Transpennine DMUs are another matter - they were specifically allocated to Hull/Cleethorpes-Sheffield-Manchester Transpennine South services)  We might well see Derby Etches Park or even at a push TS units.

 

It may well be that after the 1970 closures in Lincolnshire there was a surplus of 114s and the ER started using them elsewhere. But that logic shouldn't have applied in the 1960s when there was a separate NE Region and there was a lot more railway in Lincolnshire

[EddieK]

The 114s were always common at Sheffield, where they worked in from Lincolnshire. I think S Yorkshire PTE services may have been largely supported from LN - there wasn't a DMU depot in Sheffield.

 

But I don't recall seeing much in the way of NL, BG or Hammerton St units in Lincolnshire - possibly the odd NL unit , certainly not the rest. (Transpennine DMUs are another matter - they were specifically allocated to Hull/Cleethorpes-Sheffield-Manchester Transpennine South services)  We might well see Derby Etches Park or even at a push TS units.

 

It may well be that after the 1970 closures in Lincolnshire there was a surplus of 114s and the ER started using them elsewhere. But that logic shouldn't have applied in the 1960s when there was a separate NE Region and there was a lot more railway in Lincolnshire

Yes, I see what you mean. The Etches Park visitors would have been (most likely Class 120s) on the Crewe - Derby - Lincoln axis, Tyseley sets seemed popular on excursion traffic and from the mid 1980s they seemed to get everywhere across the middle part of England and North Wales. From 1986/7 Lincoln was closed and a few 114s moved to Tyseley. Once there, they seemed to work north of Walsall and on the Cambrian lines.

I recall seeing evidence of 114s working in from the eastern end of the Lincoln - Nottingham (and occasionally Derby) axis. Yes, by the time I was visiting the wide Yorkshire area, the lines in Lincolnshire had been decimated, and so a quantity of the 114 fleet would have been sucked in to other duties beyond Sheffield.

[Clive Mortimore]

The 114s were always common at Sheffield, where they worked in from Lincolnshire. I think S Yorkshire PTE services may have been largely supported from LN - there wasn't a DMU depot in Sheffield.

 

But I don't recall seeing much in the way of NL, BG or Hammerton St units in Lincolnshire - possibly the odd NL unit , certainly not the rest. (Transpennine DMUs are another matter - they were specifically allocated to Hull/Cleethorpes-Sheffield-Manchester Transpennine South services)  We might well see Derby Etches Park or even at a push TS units.

 

It may well be that after the 1970 closures in Lincolnshire there was a surplus of 114s and the ER started using them elsewhere. But that logic shouldn't have applied in the 1960s when there was a separate NE Region and there was a lot more railway in Lincolnshire

Except the purpose built shed at Darnell? :dontknow:

[Ravenser]

Except the purpose built shed at Darnell? :dontknow:

 

In the mid 80s, when the 114s were refurbished, no.

 

DA is listed in the 1979 and 1980 Locoshed, but as far as I can see, had no allocation. By 1983  it was gone. I don't have anything in between as we were in Australia.

 

At what point Darnall ceased to have an allocation I don't know, but by the time I was visiting S. Yorkshire in the mid 80s it had gone completely and it looks like it had been reduced to a stabling point during the 1970s.

 

DN had a reasonable allocation of DMUs - it's possible DA may have been functioning as a stabling/sign-on point for DN units

 

101s certainly appeared on the Lincoln/Nottingham/Derby/Birmingham services, more so than 120s, and they weren't LN units . Possibly DY units - certainly that's where the 150/1s that replaced them in 1985 were based

[Clive Mortimore]

In the mid 80s, when the 114s were refurbished, no.

 

DA is listed in the 1979 and 1980 Locoshed, but as far as I can see, had no allocation. By 1983  it was gone. I don't have anything in between as we were in Australia.

 

At what point Darnall ceased to have an allocation I don't know, but by the time I was visiting S. Yorkshire in the mid 80s it had gone completely and it looks like it had been reduced to a stabling point during the 1970s.

 

DN had a reasonable allocation of DMUs - it's possible DA may have been functioning as a stabling/sign-on point for DN units

 

101s certainly appeared on the Lincoln/Nottingham/Derby/Birmingham services, more so than 120s, and they weren't LN units . Possibly DY units - certainly that's where the 150/1s that replaced them in 1985 were based

My mistake thinking that a building built during the modernisation plan for DMUs was used at some point for DMUs.

[John Tomlinson]

I have a thought, somewhere in the back of my head, that the modern shed at Darnall was built for the Woodhead electrification. As the section to Rotherwood, passing Darnall was the last to open (January 1955?) I expect the shed to be of similar vintage.

 

It was in any case quite a modest affair, not a lot bigger than the one at Wath, with the main facility being at Reddish in east Manchester.

 

John.

[Clive Mortimore]

I have a thought, somewhere in the back of my head, that the modern shed at Darnall was built for the Woodhead electrification. As the section to Rotherwood, passing Darnall was the last to open (January 1955?) I expect the shed to be of similar vintage.

 

It was in any case quite a modest affair, not a lot bigger than the one at Wath, with the main facility being at Reddish in east Manchester.

 

John.

The building I am referring to is a three road ER glass house with the same style of pits as found in A Shed Stratford, Cambridge, Lincoln, and Norwich. There is photo of it in Rex Kennedy's Diesels and Electrics on Shed, Vol 2, ER.

 

This is the only photo I can find on line. http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p325189781/h34a4f2aa#h34a4f2aa

[John Tomlinson]

Clive, yes that's the place I had in mind. Pits but no engine room level walkways or lifting gear. So I guess just light maintenance and for exams.

 

IIRC Wath was similar but two road. Reddish was a substantial building with three parts, the main area had full lifting gear for locos, like the works at Stratford.

 

John.

Edited March 17, 2018 by John Tomlinson

[Clive Mortimore]

Clive, yes that's the place I had in mind. Pits but no engine room level walkways or lifting gear. So I guess just light maintenance and for exams.

 

IIRC Wath was similar but two road. Reddish was a substantial building with three parts, the main area had full lifting gear for locos, like the works at Stratford.

 

John.

HI John

 

The other sheds I listed are the same, the fitters had access to the DMU engines form the pits outside of the rails. You do not need lifting gear for a DMU engine it slides out sideways on to a trolley.

[Ravenser]

The building I am referring to is a three road ER glass house with the same style of pits as found in A Shed Stratford, Cambridge, Lincoln, and Norwich. There is photo of it in Rex Kennedy's Diesels and Electrics on Shed, Vol 2, ER.

 

This is the only photo I can find on line. http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p325189781/h34a4f2aa#h34a4f2aa

 

If DA was being used for delivery checks on 56s in 1977, that implies that it was no longer in use for DMUs. That would very much tally with the lack of an allocation in the 1978 and 1979 locosheds, and it's disappearance sometime thereafter (when there were no more 56s to check??)

 

PTEs were established in 1975 I think, so it may well not have been in use for DMUs during the existence of S. Yorkshire PTE

 

That leaves the question of when it opened (after the demise of the GC steam shed? ) and more pertinently what was allocated there. 

 

I would imagine Clive's interest would be in what was allocated there during the 1960s, when in theory it should have been supplying units for his layout

[John Tomlinson]

I think you'll find that the modern structure opened in the '50's for the Woodhead electrification (#209), and the old steam shed was in use, with an allocation of steam and diesels, until at least 1965.

 

In 1965 the depot at Tinsley opened, and there was a mass transfer of diesel locos plus the "41A" shedcode. I think steam finished in the Sheffield area in 1965, so Darnall's remaining locos would have been withdrawn at that time. 

 

The Sheffield area DMU's would have continued to be serviced at Darnall presumably, I can't ever recall seeing anything other than perhaps the odd car at Tinsley in many visits in the early '70's. Remember as well there were extensive carriage sidings at Nunnery, adjacent to the GC line east of Sheffield Victoria, and I wonder if fuelling facilities were provided there? Nunnery sidings had access via an east to south chord into Midland station, the one used by Retford bound services today.

 

John.

[Clive Mortimore]

I think you'll find that the modern structure opened in the '50's for the Woodhead electrification (#209), and the old steam shed was in use, with an allocation of steam and diesels, until at least 1965.

 

In 1965 the depot at Tinsley opened, and there was a mass transfer of diesel locos plus the "41A" shedcode. I think steam finished in the Sheffield area in 1965, so Darnall's remaining locos would have been withdrawn at that time. 

 

The Sheffield area DMU's would have continued to be serviced at Darnall presumably, I can't ever recall seeing anything other than perhaps the odd car at Tinsley in many visits in the early '70's. Remember as well there were extensive carriage sidings at Nunnery, adjacent to the GC line east of Sheffield Victoria, and I wonder if fuelling facilities were provided there? Nunnery sidings had access via an east to south chord into Midland station, the one used by Retford bound services today.

 

John.

Hi John

 

The building in question never had any OLE going to it.

 

DMU sheds were not on hit list for photographers, there are tons of photos of Deltics let alone any other locos at Clarence Yard, Finsbury Park, I think I have seen two of the DMU shed at Western Sidings, Finsbury Park.

[ISW]

Except the purpose built shed at Darnell? :dontknow:

Clive,

 

I knew I'd seen a photo of a DMU at Darnall. Took some finding though ... So, just to prove that DMUs did at least 'visit' Darnall depot, see photo below extracted from "British Rail 1948-78 A Journey by Design" showing "... this view of Darnall depot in 1959. This Derby built railcar ...".

 

 

Ian

[Clive Mortimore]

Clive,

 

I knew I'd seen a photo of a DMU at Darnall. Took some finding though ... So, just to prove that DMUs did at least 'visit' Darnall depot, see photo below extracted from "British Rail 1948-78 A Journey by Design" showing "... this view of Darnall depot in 1959. This Derby built railcar ...".

 

New Doc 2018-03-19.jpg

 

Ian

Hi Ian

 

In have that book, and I had forgotten that photo. Thanks.

[Enterprisingwestern]

I think you'll find that the modern structure opened in the '50's for the Woodhead electrification (#209), and the old steam shed was in use, with an allocation of steam and diesels, until at least 1965.

 

In 1965 the depot at Tinsley opened, and there was a mass transfer of diesel locos plus the "41A" shedcode. I think steam finished in the Sheffield area in 1965, so Darnall's remaining locos would have been withdrawn at that time. 

 

The Sheffield area DMU's would have continued to be serviced at Darnall presumably, I can't ever recall seeing anything other than perhaps the odd car at Tinsley in many visits in the early '70's. Remember as well there were extensive carriage sidings at Nunnery, adjacent to the GC line east of Sheffield Victoria, and I wonder if fuelling facilities were provided there? Nunnery sidings had access via an east to south chord into Midland station, the one used by Retford bound services today.

 

John.

 

Neither Nunnery or Heeley carriage sidings had fuelling facilities, DMU re-fuelling was carried out at the sidings at the south end of Sheffield Midland.

 

Mike.

[cheesysmith]

IIRC the fueling of DMUs was originally at darnall, and the last thing darnall DMU did was component recovery from the 123/124 DMUs. Darnall DMU when shut was replaced with a fueling and light maintenace point at sheffield midland built on the motorail and fish dock using the sidings next to the PSB. I think the DMU shed and the carridge sidings at nunnery fell into disuse when the HSTs were introduced on MML services.

[Clive Mortimore]

Here are some photos of a resurrected project, a Trans Pennine  DMU.

 

 

 

 

 

I am using Tri-ang Mk1 coaches, they are not the right profile but I hope the end result will be a passable Trans Pennine layout model.

 

Sharing the same box is another dormant project, a Swindon 4 car Inter City unit using the same source of model coaches, again with the same caveat. I have come a cross a few photos of a 4 (or 8) car train with a power car and a trailer added making a 6 (or 10) car set. I recently brought a collection of Mk1 coaches and from it I will be able to make six car train. 

 

In the collection of coaches are some Trix models, if you have been Singaller 69's thread on class 126 units he uses Trix coaches as they have the correct window spacing and in 4mm scale the slightly smaller windows as found on a Edinburgh to Glasgow set, I will be making a three car unit to start with. I am going to copy how Martyn lengthens and deepens the sides. I have plenty of spare Tri-ang roofs and underframes, with ends, to bulk out the 3.8mm Trix coaches.

 

This leaves me with some Trix roofs, which oddly enough are correct width and profile for a SR 6S Hastings DEMU, Now I think I can sratchbuild straight sided coaches. Last night I was thinking how will I power the 6S? Simple it will share the same Replica powered coach chassis as the North London EMU. I am using the centre car as the power unit and looking at the undeframe, and bogies of that and a trailer car on a 6S and they are the same, more to the point if I use the TFK it has a continuous footboard on the compartment side, like the North London EMU. The other side hasn't but who will notice. 

 

 

[Signaller69]

Nice to see the TP unit stretching its legs Clive, no doubt it will doubly look the part when painted.

 

Thanks for the "plug" by the way! If it wasn't for the Class 126 window spacings/size I would have much rather used Triang donor vehicles over the Trix ones I have to say.

 

Looking forward to seeing progress on your Hastings unit in due course too!

 

Regards,

Martyn.

[Clive Mortimore]

Progress today on the Swindon Inter-City unit, I have made the second open trailer, I am waiting for the sides on the new motor brake second to set, heading off to the model room to make the buffet and most importantly I have made a power chassis for the train using Lima H0 class 33 power bogies. The chassis has had a trial run with the coaches off the Trans Pennine and seemed to cope with five coaches at all speed ranges.

 

With the buffet car the BR diagram shows the buffet side, I tried to work out the window spacing from the plan for the "corridor" side as the Golding drawing and the MTK kit I have disagreed with each other. Photographs I have of the corridor side are mainly in the train and 3/4 views which are helpful but not that good when sizing windows. I then had a brain wave, one of the Inter-City buffets was rebuilt to work in a Clacton unit and the drawing of it was included in a series of EMU drawings in the Great Eastern Journal. It shows the side I was after, it matches the plan on the BR diagram but disagrees with the Golding drawing and the MTK kit. I am using the GE Journal drawing as the EMU ones have been very helpful so I trust it.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Clive Mortimore

[Clive Mortimore]

The Swindon Inter City has been running tonight but it did look a little odd with no cab. I did build one later but for some reason my ruler lied and it ended up being too narrow so I will have another go tomorrow.

I went into sheer panic when I thought I didn't have enough underframes and roofs for the next round of cutting and shutting. I have I was just looking in the wrong boxes.

[Clive Mortimore]

The Swindon unit now has a basic cab and looked very good as it trundled around the layout with the Trans Pennine going the other way.

 

While those two were pottering around I was busy making the power chassis for the class 309 EMUs. I did get them to a point where I could run the whole 10 car train with all three units powered, some work is still needed but they are getting there.

 

All the time I was busy I had some of my favorite bands playing.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 for some reason my ruler lied

 

You must have bought it from the same place as mine Clive!

 

Mike.

[Signaller69]

I use the old maxim of "measure twice, cut once, then add lots of filler cos its still too short"!

[Enterprisingwestern]

I use the old maxim of "measure twice, cut once, then add lots of filler cos its still too short"!

 

I also have knives and files that lie to me, either that or the tracking needs adjusting.

 

Mike.