Hornby's Nat Southworth responds to RMweb members' Q&A.

[Dunsignalling]

Looking at the profiles of some of their senior managers it seems that there was some experience with such bastions of retail as Woolworth and JJB Sports.

Oh, Dear!

[Free At Last]

What is the setting time of N gauge concrete?

[Waverley West]

Duplication means choice and that means we have to make sure that we are your first choice. 

 

Which in the case of the Mk 2e's at least seems to me to mean rushing them to market before Bachmann's Mk 2f's and making a hash of them (in my humble opinion, not to mention that of quite a few others).

[cheesysmith]

I think the most enlightening bit of this was the use of the word BRAND to describe Hornby. That sounds too much like a asset management company instead of a model railway/toy manufacturer. But then again, Hornby are not a manufacturer any more, nor are they actually a distributer, that they have contracted out. How long before the design is contracted out to china or some place, leaving Hornby as just a brand where some expensive suits collect inflated wages whilst making a mark up on what they sell, and if things go wrong, they just jump ship blaming that the problems were not their fault?

 

They seem to be leaving themselves at the mercy of others, and are in danger of having nothing left to manage. Being a manager is one of the most difficult jobs going at the moment, especially if you have no control over what others are doing.

[Forester]

Sad to say, Hornby exactly fits the profile of a company ripe for takeover:

A very strong brand, a large loyal customer base, a retail price ceiling which appears not to have been reached, a fixable supply chain problem  .....

...and an incompetent management team.

The merger and acquisition specialists love this kind of company because they will bring in a complete new management team motivated by big bonuses when the company is sold on later, and provide some cash to restart the company, while not having to worry about any loss of demand for the product.

 

It wouldn't do the hobby much good in the long term, though, so despite the strong feelings most of us share about the continuing misery at Hornby, it is in the interests of the hobby to help keep the company out of the clutches of the "barbarians" who would really milk it to death.

[The Stationmaster]

Looking at the profiles of some of their senior managers it seems that there was some experience with such bastions of retail as Woolworth and JJB Sports.

Being a member of 'Linked In' does have its occasional benefits

Thanks to Andy for conducting this exercise.  The replies though are just the guarded responses you might expect from a 'Company Man'.  Apart from the forecast expansion of 'N' gauge there was nothing in it really.

 

However the answers to Questions 2 & 6 were, I felt, particularly disingenuous, and the whole, 'proud to be working for a great British company' shtick is something I heard time and time again from William Britains Marketing Managers, right up to the day before they sold out to an American company.

I think this sums it up admirably - as you say, the answers are very much what we could have expected and I also agree that some of them were rather disingenuous.  What really worries me about Nat Southworth's replies was the way they compare with what I hear from people in the trade (and not just Widnes Model Centre's words in this thread and elsewhere on RMweb) in that there seems to be a disconnect between the 'corporate line' and the reality of the retail situation.   I can't really see how Hornby's direct retail sales of items at less than trade prices is going to 'invigorate the market' while in fact it's far more likely to irritate retailers and their customers (i.e. me);  in fact the only thing it might 'invigorate' is Hornby's bottom line - but not by very much.

 

So let's try to move forward a bit.  Firstly we have been offered some further positive information about the company's efforts to address its supply situation and it is rather more - in my view - than 'just words' and we can but hope that it succeeds, for all our sakes.  Secondly and importantly is the very fact that Nat Southworth again agreed to take on questions from RMweb, now while the style of the answers was not at all unexpected as far as I'm concerned the good thing is that he actually bothered - from little acorns perhaps?

 

Third, and I think crucially important for us, is to recognise that Hornby's corporate structure has changed and that we are not necessarily seen in the light which Simon Kohler's presence at shows and on emails encouraged us to believe we were seen.  We are not necessarily anything different from Hornby's other customers - what counts (and, in reality, has always counted) is what we put into Hornby's bottom line as a particular segment of the various markets they are in - for example remarks here about an advent calendar clearly aimed at the 'toyshop' market are irrelevant for Hornby, and do us no good.  Failure to sort chickens from eggs in the matter of duplication don't help our reputation either apart from demonstrating a naivety about product development timescales - and so it goes on.

 

So perhaps we might get a bit less 'marketing speak' in answers from Hornby if we showed rather more maturity in more of our comments about their real shortcomings as they impact on us and our retailers.

 

Tin Helmet and body armour now in place.

[sub39h]

Thanks for the effort Andy, but I feel that Hornby have wasted your time and reading the responses has wasted ours. 

[Ian Hargrave]

Thanks for the effort Andy, but I feel that Hornby have wasted your time and reading the responses has wasted ours. 

Yes and I can appreciate much of the sentiment expressed here and agree with some of it. But....it is a beginning and perhaps should be viewed from that perspective. If our responses are seen as primarily negative it might seal off an important avenue of communication. I don't think that is a desirable outcome. Nor do I view this exercise as time wasted It perhaps is a beginning and maybe we should be content with that just for now.We tend to consider ourselves as the final arbiters of correctness in this field. We might pause for a moment and also consider what others think of us and how we are viewed by the senior management in both major companies and by other modellers.I have been the recipient of unflattering observations from both sections.Iam sure I'm not alone in hearing remarks such as " Oh,you're not one of those whingers,are you?"

 

There is another topic running on RMWeb at the moment  on which one of our number seems hell-bent on a one member crusade against one manufacturer. It is an illustration of the corrosive effects of negativity.Not Hornby.Off topic.But an unenlightening example of what I mean.

[pete_mcfarlane]

So perhaps we might get a bit less 'marketing speak' in answers from Hornby if we showed rather more maturity in more of our comments about their real shortcomings as they impact on us and our retailers.

 

Does anyone remember that 1980s kid's TV phone in where the cut-price British Jackson wannabes 'Five Star' got asked the (in their case quite reasonable) question 'Why are you so F****** s***?'. I get the impression that quite a few members on here would like to do the same with Hornby.

 

We've basically asked the senior marketing bloke a load of random questions, and then got annoyed when he's used marketing speak in his replies and talked in high level general terms without giving much away. Just because some of the other manufacturers go on web forums and talk at great length about the internal workings of their business doesn't mean that Hornby have to.

 

 

That said, this snippet was interesting, as it hints at a little bit of frustration with the production side of the business. 

 

The sales team have been advised of false dawns before...

[brushman47544]

 but I feel that Hornby have wasted your time and reading the responses has wasted ours. 

 

I certainly wouldn't go that far, but I do think perhaps the choice of questions made it very difficult for Nat Southworth, assuming he wanted to, give the sort of clear and specific answers we were hoping for. He did after all give a clear and unambiguous answer concerning future N gauge products. For next time perhaps Andy might select the questions assuming there will be similar constraints on the answers Nat can give to certain types of question.

[APOLLO]

Sad to say, Hornby exactly fits the profile of a company ripe for takeover:

A very strong brand, a large loyal customer base, a retail price ceiling which appears not to have been reached, a fixable supply chain problem  .....

...and an incompetent management team.

The merger and acquisition specialists love this kind of company because they will bring in a complete new management team motivated by big bonuses when the company is sold on later, and provide some cash to restart the company, while not having to worry about any loss of demand for the product.

 

It wouldn't do the hobby much good in the long term, though, so despite the strong feelings most of us share about the continuing misery at Hornby, it is in the interests of the hobby to help keep the company out of the clutches of the "barbarians" who would really milk it to death.

 

The takeover "barbarians" would load the company with debt, as has happened to Sanda Kan, Manchester United etc etc. Not good.

 

Modern business is ruthless. Brand names rule - I have long ago stopped "trusting" many (but certainly not all) brand names, having had quality issues with too many items over the last few years (most with good old British / German etc once respected brands). Its a world of s*** out there - buyer beware.

 

Hornbys quality though in my opinion is high - never had a serious fault requiring return of any of my Hornby locos & stock over many years. I will continue to buy Hornby products as long as they are offered at (to me) a reasonable price. (Which varies amongst people). Hornbys current marketing methods though, simply suck.

 

Brit15

[Fenman]

...  I can't really see how Hornby's direct retail sales of items at less than trade prices is going to 'invigorate the market' while in fact it's far more likely to irritate retailers and their customers (i.e. me); ...

 

While I agree with pretty much all the rest of your post, I think it's a mistake to conflate all customers with your own circumstances or experiences. Speaking as a punter with no local model shop, Hornby's direct retail sales of items at less than trade prices was very welcome indeed (as indeed is the offer of all other goods at RRP).

 

As it happens, they offered nothing I wanted. But the principle - of providing service to those of us without a local model shop - is, to me, very welcome.

 

Paul

[Tase]

Well, that's 5 minutes of my life I'll never get back! .......reaches for the Ignore Topic button...

[sub39h]

I certainly wouldn't go that far, but I do think perhaps the choice of questions made it very difficult for Nat Southworth, assuming he wanted to, give the sort of clear and specific answers we were hoping for. He did after all give a clear and unambiguous answer concerning future N gauge products. For next time perhaps Andy might select the questions assuming there will be similar constraints on the answers Nat can give to certain types of question.

 

Harsh perhaps, but let's look at it this way - Hornby Railways (irrespective of their future intentions) are in the business of 00 gauge model railways. The 4mm scale has by far the biggest following in the UK. So if objectively you're saying the only useful bit of information we can extract is that Hornby may develop their N gauge range, that information is likely to be of little use to the majority of people who have read the interview. It may be a positive thing for some, but for most it is nothing but a side note. The remainder of the interview yields little useful information for the rest (the vast majority?) of us.

 

Another poster has said that negativity may mean Hornby does not engage with the public in the future. Who are they harming by doing that? Tbh I'd almost be inclined to say "no news is good news", and if Hornby are going to try and weasel their way out of answering legitimate questions posed to them by their own customers then maybe saying nothing may be a better thing to do. At this rather perilous time in their history, can they afford another hit to their reputation?

 

Anyhow I stand by my original statements. I feel that reading the interview was a waste of my time, and I don't think I'm alone. 

[GreenBR]

Hello,

Don't normally comment on this sort of thing but, it would have been nice to receive answers that were aimed at ordinary people in an ordinary way. Little words are much better and have greater meaning in my humble very ordinary opinion.

Regards

[Spannerman]

The answers given are typical of most corporate/politik style presentations these days, where nothing is either answered nor discounted.

 

The use of the word brand is the same as how football teams are called franchises, both phrases which sicken loyal followers.

 

I'm not sure the responses with the exception of the N gauge announcement will really be what anyone wanted.

 

Atb

 

Nik

[The Stationmaster]

While I agree with pretty much all the rest of your post, I think it's a mistake to conflate all customers with your own circumstances or experiences. Speaking as a punter with no local model shop, Hornby's direct retail sales of items at less than trade prices was very welcome indeed (as indeed is the offer of all other goods at RRP).

 

As it happens, they offered nothing I wanted. But the principle - of providing service to those of us without a local model shop - is, to me, very welcome.

 

Paul

A very good point Paul - but don't overlook the fact that Hornby's Americanised (i.e Black Friday) sale would have exactly the same impact on retailers who also sell by mail/internet ordering as it would on my most local model shop (which is only 1 hour's drive away).  In fact as it happened one item which was offered in that sale at way below trade cost price was exactly the same as one I purchased only a few months and which might have arrived in the post from my other 'local' model shop (which is several counties away.

 

The message is not the convenience or otherwise of how one shops but the fact that Hornby are sometimes offering stuff to the public via direct sales (and not just on Black Friday) at considerably lower cost than they charge retailers as a wholesale price.

[Andy W]

Perhaps if there is a next time we need to be more subtle in wording the questions so they are less likely to produce mostly meaningless answers. What a pity that Ben Ando who asks people questions they don't always want to answer for a living is associated with Bauer and not Warners.

[Ozexpatriate]

Perhaps if there is a next time we need to be more subtle in wording the questions so they are less likely to produce mostly meaningless answers.

There's something to be said for this.

 

Conventional wisdom is to ask open-ended questions but perhaps, rather than asking the hard questions we'd like answers to, we ask closed questions (like questions with a yes/no answer) that we think Hornby might actually answer directly and specifically like:

 

Q. Do you have plans for N gauge? A. Yes.

 

While deeper questions may go unanswered, the results might be more satisfying this way.

 

That format seemed to work.

[Ron Ron Ron]

That format seemed to work.

 

It doesn't appear to work on politicians !

 

 

.

[Ozexpatriate]

It doesn't appear to work on politicians !

It depends on the question.

 

Perhaps it's time to throw them some softballs? (if I may indulge in an Americanism.)

[wirey33]

_{I've had to read this one a couple of times to really grasp what's being said.......}

 

_{We have had a long period of unpredictability and as such it has been very hard to balance supply and demand.}

 

_{I understand that supply is a problem (due to manufacturing capacity), but demand for a certain model won’t change much, even with ever increasing delays. If modellers want a particular loco they’ll wait until it arrives. OK, there may be a few who will spend their money on something else, but with so many announcements of new models in recent years and the capacity problems at the Chinese manufacturing plants, I believe modellers understand that waiting and missed delivery promises is part of the hobby these days. So demand remains until it’s satisfied with supply. How is that unpredictable?}

 

_{Now these next answers I guess are relating to the “Exeter” situation….}

 

_{During this period there has been an increased trend of “pre-order” which we recognise is our consumers’ efforts to guarantee the desired model. As we improve our supply chain we believe we will improve our ability to satisfy this demand.}

 

_{Rough translation - Even though we had pre-orders for XXX items, providing us with a clear indicator of interest levels, we produced significantly less than XXX and we're going to hide behind wishy-washy phrases like "Supply Chain" so we don't have to come clean and say things like "We didn't order enough; it's our fault. We’ll order some more."}

 

_{Now I’m open to being corrected here, but my understanding of Supply Chain covers the whole process from raw materials production, to processing of the raw materials, to component manufacture, to assembly, shipping it to the warehouse and finally distribution to the retailers. I doubt Hornby get involved with component manufacturers so their “Supply Chain” is pretty short – manufacture-shipping- distribution. How difficult is it to “manage” a “supply chain” that requires “I’d like 1000 of those, please ship them to me with an invoice, when they arrive send them to the retailers”?}

 

 _{"We acknowledge that we and retailers have under called demand.." - No, the retailers told you how many they wanted and you came up with significantly less, trying to blame the retailers for that is nothing short of an insult. Keeping back you own stash and then selling it direct is doubly insulting to both your retailers and their customers (or consumers!?)}

 

_{"..as such we need to increase our volumes to get closer to this." - Closer ??? Closer ?!?! How about actually fulfilling the requirements of your consumers? Sounds like a good business plan to me.}

 

_{I'm fortunate that there are almost no Hornby items which I want for my layout/collection, so I can take a slightly detached view. Having said that, almost every answer has me wondering how the company can continue to squeeze retailers and disappoint customers (N gaugers aside!!) and still continue to trade?}

 

_{Their “Classic” market of modellers who grew up in the steam soaked 50’s & 60’s is a diminishing target (sorry guys, none of us are getting any younger……..) The new(-ish) market of modellers who grew up with the smell of diesel fumes will look at the Hornby range and head for the nearest Bachmann/Dapol dealer. The most popular classes (The Class 55, 47, 40, 37 and Westerns) are represented in the Hornby range but every single model is bettered by another manufacturer. The Class 08, 56 & 60 are great models but will never sell in the volume that the most popular classes will. So where does that leave Hornby ? Surely the Christmas market of Train Sets can’t keep them afloat?}

[Ozexpatriate]

However the answers to Questions 2 & 6 were, I felt, particularly disingenuous, ...

Regrettably the wording of Question 2 focused on the printed catalogue.

 

It specifically said: "There are examples of products such as Hornby's latest King Arthur, R3010, where the production model varies from that which has been illustrated in catalogues."

 

Had question two been:

"There are examples of products such as Hornby's latest King Arthur, R3010, where the production model varied from the illustrations on Hornby.com at the time of release. What are the reasons behind this, should the changes be communicated to the consumer and are there any other models likely to be affected?"

 

Nat would not have had the opportunity to deflect to the obsolescence of the printed catalogue.

[Ozexpatriate]

_{We have had a long period of unpredictability and as such it has been very hard to balance supply and demand.}

 

_{I understand that supply is a problem (due to manufacturing capacity), but demand for a certain model won’t change much, even with ever increasing delays. If modellers want a particular loco they’ll wait until it arrives. OK, there may be a few who will spend their money on something else, but with so many announcements of new models in recent years and the capacity problems at the Chinese manufacturing plants, I believe modellers understand that waiting and missed delivery promises is part of the hobby these days. So demand remains until it’s satisfied with supply. How is that unpredictable?}

Their supply chain is unpredictable - not customer demand.

 

_{During this period there has been an increased trend of “pre-order” which we recognise is our consumers’ efforts to guarantee the desired model. As we improve our supply chain we believe we will improve our ability to satisfy this demand.}

 

_{Rough translation - Even though we had pre-orders for XXX items, providing us with a clear indicator of interest levels, we produced significantly less than XXX and we're going to hide behind wishy-washy phrases like "Supply Chain" so we don't have to come clean and say things like "We didn't order enough; it's our fault. We’ll order some more."}

 

_{Now I’m open to being corrected here, but my understanding of Supply Chain covers the whole process from raw materials production, to processing of the raw materials, to component manufacture, to assembly, shipping it to the warehouse and finally distribution to the retailers. I doubt Hornby get involved with component manufacturers so their “Supply Chain” is pretty short – manufacture-shipping- distribution. How difficult is it to “manage” a “supply chain” that requires “I’d like 1000 of those, please ship them to me with an invoice, when they arrive send them to the retailers”?}

 

_{"..as such we need to increase our volumes to get closer to this." - Closer ??? Closer ?!?! How about actually fulfilling the requirements of your consumers? Sounds like a good business plan to me.}

Hornby reported a product delivery to order ratio as 65% for the first half of 2014/15 improving from 59% in 2013/14. Question 7 was indirectly answered.

[Andy Hayter]

There's something to be said for this.

 

Conventional wisdom is to ask open-ended questions but perhaps, rather than asking the hard questions we'd like answers to, we ask closed questions (like questions with a yes/no answer) that we think Hornby might actually answer directly and specifically like:

 

Q. Do you have plans for N gauge? A. Yes.

 

While deeper questions may go unanswered, the results might be more satisfying this way.

 

That format seemed to work.

 

 

My question, which Andy (the other more important one) took directly regarding bottlenecks could not have been more closed.

 

The answer?   We have teams looking at this.  Which if I take that as  serious answer to the question means, "I don't know yet."  In which case I am afraid Nat and the whole team should resign.  If you don't yet know where your problems are then you are not fit for purpose.

 

If on the other hand this was a fob off for, "I am not going to tell you." , then the man is treating us like idiots.  As such he should be ashamed of himself and resign.

 

If he meant and had said, "this is commercially sensitive and I prefer not to divulge." I for one could accept that.  But Marketing speak seems to have filled his brain with the same muddle that the whole Hornby organisation seem to be sliding into.

 

However given the answer to this and every other question bar the N gauge one, I am afraid that the next time Nat comes and asks for us to quiz him, my question will be why do you think we should bother, given the mealy mouthed answers you gave in the past?

 

Sorry Andy Y, I know you tried, but wrestling with eels just leaves sticky slime on your hands.

 

I have previously defended Hornby regarding some of the issues they have had, but I am now struggling to defend the indefensible (aka their Marketing Department).