Hornby's Nat Southworth responds to RMweb members' Q&A.

[Oakydoke]

.

 

Oh the joy of marketing "professionals"  -  they are so "up themselves" that they don't know just how silly they come across.

 

To think that no one else in the world has done as well as him !

 

Sad to think that companies have to operate with people like this.

 

.

I think that sort of personal attack is completely uncalled for.

OK, all Andy got in reply from the guy was avoidance and empty corporate type blather, but we shouldn't diminish Andy's efforts to obtain some insight into the goings on at Hornby. Frankly that personal attack must be very embarrassing for both Andy and most of the members on here.

[Oakydoke]

.

 It is all a long way from when I was a kid and would look in the Tri-ang Hornby catalogue and see what to save my pocket money for and then go to the local toy shop in the village where I lived and they would have several of everything in the catalogue in stock.

Aye and they used to duck Witches as well.

Ah them were the good old days.

[durham light infantry]

How Hornby management decide how many of each model to produce.

 

The maths can't be faulted...

 

 

Mike

[robmcg]

This is fast becoming a personal attack on the individual rather than a discussion of his replies. I'm surprised he even comes here every six months. I wouldn't bother.

I used to be proud to be a member of RMweb.

 

I didn't intend a personal attack on Nat, but sought to laugh at the style of language used by many in management.

 

There are some very raw nerves and hurt feelings among retailers and a little humour is ok.

 

As other have said, there is a lot of good will around for Hornby brands. Mr Southworth is aware of that. Criticism of his reply to Andy Y's questions is perfectly valid in my opinion, and his phrasing was in my opinion quite riddled with PR and marketing clichés.

 

That is criticism and I wouldn't characterise it as a personal attack. In social media generally you can expect criticism, ill-informed perhaps.

[Legend]

I think you have to take a helicopter view. Let's run it up the flag post and see what happens

[Andy Y]

I'm sure Nat's felt a bit under the microscope reading these responses! It's worth mentioning that it was Nat himself who proffered the idea of the Q&A session when we were talking one day, due to personal circumstances at this end we ran the session after Warley rather than the week before as intended and even that one week would probably have made a difference to perceptions in some cases. My point there really is that at least Nat is accessible and prepared to stick a head above the parapet for which thanks are due.

 

You may not like the style of responses but working for a Plc does mean that public responses often have to be guarded or limited in some form but at least they're responses which means at least the questions have been heard; if you haven't read an answer you'd like to read it doesn't necessarily mean that there was no point in asking the question. That helps Hornby gain an understanding of what people think; those who posted questions are probably some of the most passionate part of Hornby's customer base, 'we' may not be the average train set chocolate machine buying part of their market but at least we've had a say. As for the chocolate machine I told Nat that it had me shaking my head all day on Wednesday; it certainly doesn't fit 'our' perception of what Hornby should be but how many products do we buy or buy from businesses where we actively give such feedback and seemingly demand that the company be run in such a way - that's part of the passion I guess.

 

Some feel that references to the 'brand' is over-used but in my view it is the the most valuable product that they have on the shelf, it's the thing that makes buyers pick up products and it's the one thing which has a value in years to come; far more so than trading performance. If Hornby were ever to change ownership that is the thing the buyer would be interested in and how to make it work for 'him'. Having had a good deal of retail experience and running a retail and wholesale business I do understand that there are balances needed to maximise revenue but also to not upset either part of the customer base it's frustrating to see some of the quite public cock-ups which have happened. The reality is those cock-ups happen in business day in and day out all over the world to many companies but we don't know or don't care about them because we're really not that interested. If we want more of a say than making protest comments I guess the thing to do is buy some Hornby shares and have a say in that capacity and become one of the dreaded shareholders that some feel Hornby are appeasing and it may give a slightly different view. You and I could do that if we so wished.

 

The posting which referenced profit warnings from a couple of years ago after the Olympic distraction included links to 'expert' comment about what Hornby should be doing. Those commentators saw it as improving social media interaction; Hornby have done that but not necessarily in the ways that I, understandably, would think. It has 30,000+ Facebook likes (as opposed to be the positive PR Hornby will have experienced in the Warley News topic http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/92766-news-from-warley-2014/with over 40,000 views in the week after posting) but the quality of so many replies on Facebook (for any business) leads me more than anything (apart from comments on Youtube videos) to feel that society is doomed when it's considered an asset for a business to engage in that way. In this site and others Hornby has a very clearly defined sector of the market it can communicate with. It does to a limited degree and the collective hobby press will soon be off to Margate to see what's coming for next year and at least I get the invite; whether my name's on a dartboard at the moment in deepest Kent I don't know until I see the look on Nat's face. I feel it would be good for Hornby to engage more with 'our' part of the market but not to the extent of asking every Friday afternoon what we're doing at the weekend.The door's open and the audience have shown that people who engage with the community can reap benefits. Many people in Hornby do read these pages far more frequently than some may imagine but it would be nice to turn into a dialogue rather than just reading mad rants. Come on in.

 

Hornby has some excellent people within the business and although they get locked upstairs and we don't get to know them they are the ones doing their very best to give us those products but it is understandable that the public faces of the business protect those people from those mad ranters and keeps them working rather than loafing on the internet all day but it would be a positive thing for Hornby for some of its buyers to see what those people do on occasion. In that context Nat has been prepared to be a public face and engage with RMweb and for that alone he deserves some respect; of course it's permissible to disagree with what's been said but it's not necessary to be publicly insulting; what does that achieve?

 

I'd still question some things myself; the most affirmative answer was to that of the N gauge question and it's clear there's more to come from Hornby in that direction but I feel it's not going to be the most productive way to go. There are already two strong players in the UK market both of whom are either carrying comparatively high stock levels of existing products or at very least not seeing sales at the same rate as 4mm scale products, there's not many livery/number re-runs in the world of N gauge and once initial demand is sated there are low residual sales. Given Hornby's more recent moves of trying to supply demand levels but not carry much stock afterwards (or offer clearance prices impacting on the value of items still on a retailer's shelf) I honestly do not think N gauge is the way to go for growth.

 

One area I think Hornby do not capitalise on relates to that brand and that is some retro-styled products which evoke earlier eras of success; there's heritage that can make us smile, novelties that can make the kids have fun, exploding giraffe cars or whatever (maybe that's not quite right but there we go). However what 'we' want is a Hornby that can produce good quality products and bring them to us at a sensible price; do that and 'we' buy it.

 

Having said all of that and extended an open hand I still wonder if the Hornby whose marketeers ask us what we're up to,  call things a loco when it should be a train (or possibly vice versa) or think that a chocolate machine (with no refills available) is a better seasonal punt than a nice set of coasters for the desk (or other relevant gifty items) then maybe we're not right for a new Hornby? At least we have choices out there and we may still want some of the things that they may make but maybe we don't have to be as passionate or care as much as we do in the future?

 

So, as some have said, it's part of a process which I hope means future dialogue.

[Adam1701D]

Not sure if I agree with your point about N sales, Andy. I would agree there have been some slow selling items but these tend to be more "niche", such as the Class 350, 86 or 4-CEP. My local shop reports that N is coming close to outselling OO, with a lot of modellers making the switch, as quality and range as increased.

 

Despite this, Hornby's Brighton Belle seems to have been a huge success, with units appearing on layouts with no Southern connection whatsoever.

 

Providing Hornby don't duplicate what's already available, there is real scope some some exciting releases in the smaller scale. I'm sure the wishlisters could have a field day with the current 4mm catalogue!

[Dunsignalling]

Aye and they used to duck Witches as well.

Ah them were the good old days.

One for next years wishlist: River bridge with working Ducking stool (DCC ready).

 

John

[Andy Y]

I wouldn't disagree that some retailers do succeed with N but a good number I've spoken to feel that N has better availability for someone walking in off the street than OO because of the of the supply/demand balance; we've got a lot of retailers out there clamouring for 4mm releases whilst N gauge products take longer to shift. The Farish Duchess is a knockout for me but a year or two down the road how many will retailers be selling compared to a Hornby Duchess for example?

[Ian Hargrave]

Post 92...Andy. Many thanks A wise and reasoned reflection on the current state of play.....and a comprehensive summation of where we're at and the way forward. The door is ajar...let's keep it that way and just maybe it'll open wider in the months and years to come.

[NINJA]

Robmcg said it reminded him of THE OFFICE programme.

 

It reminds me of THE APPRENTICE programme speak.

[NHY 581]

Hornby/triang models have played a part in my life for around fifty years, since my Father bought my first train set when I was 3 months old.

 

How sad am I at the current state of Hornby.

 

They produce some wonderful models of my favourite loco so and rolling stock. I am sure Nat means well but I am equally sure that his buzz word littered corporate response illustrates a company who are not in complete control of their products.

 

A classic case of the tail wagging the dog.

 

On a very basic level, I am sure the company are frustrated at the fact they cannot get their models to the retailers on time.

At my level, and surprisingly for a man of my age, I am genuinely disappointed that I will not be playing with my 700 class on Christmas day......sad but true.

 

This smacks of another great British institution being undermined by businessmen with no passion for the product, unlike many of the employees.

It would be a national disaster if Hornby fail, but fail they will if they cannot deliver.

Railway modellers are on the whole very passionate about their hobby. Whilst in no way singling Nat out, it appears that we the consumers are more passionate about their products than Hornby are.......

 

Rob.

[The Stationmaster]

Well, that proves what I have long suspected about Linked In, and why I shall never join it (despite being pestered). Its a pile of rubbish that anyone can say what they like and it doesnt have to match reality. 

Alas total nonsense - if you have your profile on Linked In (which I have, and Nat Southworth has read it just as I have read his) you are making yourself wide open and for many people it pays to sell yourself in the way you might do so at an interview.  But there is always a sting in the tail because anyone who reads it can take you up on it and ask you to prove it should they happen to interview you, so you're a mug if you stick your chin out with your skills and abilities and then can't back it up with facts.  Also other members can comment on the various skills you have listed which might well work as a sort of back-scratching exercise but equally others in your particular field will know whose words they can or can't trust.

 

So in fact it does have to match reality and you would be very soon found out if it doesn't.  Apologies for going OT

 

And Andy - many thanks for Post 92. 

[durham light infantry]

Andy, I think the heart of the matter is that we want to buy Hornby product and are frustrated, exasperated and infuriated by the insulting and conciliatory used of social media by Hornby.

 

"Perhaps foolishly I am on Facebook, I regularly get sent messages from Hornby which can only be described as trivial in

nature. The lack of information coming from the company recently regarding the availability of models and the resultant

rumour fest has damaged the reputation of the company in the eyes of many enthusiasts. Many of us feel that this has been

quite unnecessary."

 

My Grandmother used to say "If you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say it!" I get the feeling that the qwerty

keyboards at Hornby IT and promotions are filled with these...

 

 

STOP USING THEM

 

 

"recognise that the large majority of our sales will continue to come from traditional retail outlets."

 

Can we please see something to back this up other than more rhetoric and spin? I wish to place pre-orders for quite a lot of the 21T hoppers with my local retailer of choice. I don't want to be told that none or a small amount of my order has arrived, and "err that's all folks". Which then results in me having to amputate a couple of limbs to pay some ebay lowlife who has no overheads.

 

To sum up, I would like 3 simple things from Hornby for Christmas.

 

1) Stop insulting and degrading your customer base.

 

2) Show how you are supporting the model railway shops.

 

3) Provide enough product to supply your customer base and retailers before using it in a sale.

 

Mike

[Legend]

Many thanks for your post Andy. I think very well reasoned. Hopefully Nat can tailor responses to his market . Probably it is the case that he needs the PR speak while talking to the Financial Press but needs a more down to earth approach when talking to his customer market . If he can do this and get us engaged, he will do well. And true I think we need to congratulate him on at least trying to be interactive, although in the current market I think this needs more work rather than superficial facebook hits . More interaction with RMWeb must be in his or Hornbys interest

 

I have to say I also agree with Mikes post #100 and in particular his three points , which go to the heart of the matter.  Hornby really need to deliver actions rather than just talk.

 

Hope you get past the door on the 17th!  They really would be spectacularly stupid if they stopped you!

 

 

[Fenman]

... It would be a national disaster if Hornby fail ...

Please. Some of us need to get a sense of perspective. A "national disaster"? Who is going to die if Hornby fails?

 

I am actually a bit shocked by the rage and abuse being hurled at Nat. If nothing else, it shows a disagreeable lack of courtesy and good manners. He didn't have to stick his neck out but he did. His reward appears to be large numbers of people assuming his every word is proof of Hornby's bad faith and evil intentions.

 

The whole thing reminds me of the hapless politician in The Thick of It, who likens having a web page with standing in a room and inviting anonymous strangers to hurl excrement at you.

 

If I were Nat I'd think very carefully about bothering to engage with us again. Silence, and the product they deliver, may be both more eloquent and less likely to generate a storm of abuse.

 

Paul

[wirey33]

Please. Some of us need to get a sense of perspective. A "national disaster"? Who is going to die if Hornby fails?

 

I am actually a bit shocked by the rage and abuse being hurled at Nat. If nothing else, it shows a disagreeable lack of courtesy and good manners. He didn't have to stick his neck out but he did. His reward appears to be large numbers of people assuming his every word is proof of Hornby's bad faith and evil intentions.

 

The whole thing reminds me of the hapless politician in The Thick of It, who likens having a web page with standing in a room and inviting anonymous strangers to hurl excrement at you.

 

If I were Nat I'd think very carefully about bothering to engage with us again. Silence, and the product they deliver, may be both more eloquent and less likely to generate a storm of abuse.

 

Paul

 

We all have a special place in our hearts for Hornby; they created the models that drew us into this hobby - perhaps that's why there is so much frustration over the current situation? I'd agree though "national disaster" is a bit OTT.

 

I think you're overstating it with "rage and abuse". He's part of a company that seems to be under a lot of pressure from customers and shareholders alike and he if thought that doing a Q&A session on a public forum would be an easy ride, then he's completely detatched from reality. People are not happy with Hornby and they WILL voice their opinions (clearly with nothing to loose).

[wirey33]

 

Hornby has some excellent people within the business and although they get locked upstairs and we don't get to know them they are the ones doing their very best to give us those products but it is understandable that the public faces of the business protect those people from those mad ranters and keeps them working rather than loafing on the internet all day but it would be a positive thing for Hornby for some of its buyers to see what those people do on occasion.

 

 

An excellent point - how about wheeling out some of these excellent people to connect with their customers. Let's face it we're all geeks with a passion and knowledge about our chosen area of interest. How much more constructive would the comments on the Q&A session been if the ones providing answers had been the Geeks and enthusiasts within Hornby. Reading the answers provided, all I saw was a man in a shiny suit spouting answers suitable for a shareholders meeting rather than the informed and enthusiastic members of a specialist on-line forum.

 

And how we hate that corporate speak - it all sounds like Building Objective Lease-Loss Overall Continuing Kinetic Systems to me.

[Ian Hargrave]

Please. Some of us need to get a sense of perspective. A "national disaster"? Who is going to die if Hornby fails?

I am actually a bit shocked by the rage and abuse being hurled at Nat. If nothing else, it shows a disagreeable lack of courtesy and good manners. He didn't have to stick his neck out but he did. His reward appears to be large numbers of people assuming his every word is proof of Hornby's bad faith and evil intentions.

The whole thing reminds me of the hapless politician in The Thick of It, who likens having a web page with standing in a room and inviting anonymous strangers to hurl excrement at you.

If I were Nat I'd think very carefully about bothering to engage with us again. Silence, and the product they deliver, may be both more eloquent and less likely to generate a storm of abuse.

Paul

I appreciate what you say but there are also voices of a more reasoned nature on this forum who are content with Andy Y's briefing on the situation and don't want to prolong it any further---the "Silent Majority" like a the percentage of the electorate who can't be bothered to vote.

It should not surprise you that a degree of antagonism has been in evidence,This is an open forum after all and if you set yourself up for critical appraisal in such a situation you have to expect a degree of strong criticism.Many of us have recent cause for such.You may not appreciate this but Hornby's products do not always arrive in one piece and in full working order.I need not expand further on that issue.Hence this is seen by many as an outlet for the ventilation of frustration and anger. In themselves,these are often ugly beasts and cause the raising of eyebrows and blood pressure. They do not make comfortable reading for some of us,me included.

The use of the Internet has sent much of the world into aggressive conflict within itself.We in our microcosm are perhaps experiencing the same internal turmoil. We see ourselves as monarchs of our own keyboards. "My shout....I can post what I please !"

True we have freedom of expression .In exercising that,it is far too easy to forget the checks and balances of civilised behaviour and good manners.

I sincerely hope that Nat's post will be followed by more to come on a regular basis....but next time without the fulmination that has occurred on this occasion

[NHY 581]

Please. Some of us need to get a sense of perspective. A "national disaster"? Who is going to die if Hornby fails?

I am actually a bit shocked by the rage and abuse being hurled at Nat. If nothing else, it shows a disagreeable lack of courtesy and good manners. He didn't have to stick his neck out but he did. His reward appears to be large numbers of people assuming his every word is proof of Hornby's bad faith and evil intentions.

The whole thing reminds me of the hapless politician in The Thick of It, who likens having a web page with standing in a room and inviting anonymous strangers to hurl excrement at you.

If I were Nat I'd think very carefully about bothering to engage with us again. Silence, and the product they deliver, may be both more eloquent and less likely to generate a storm of abuse.

Paul

There's no rage and abuse in my post, Paul, and I am not singling out Nat.

I am simply frustrated.

 

I agree no one is going to die but it will be a national disaster if Hornby go tits up.

Hornby is an iconic British brand.

Yes we are a long way from it happening.....or are we. Retailers who are being dealt with in a high handed take or leave it manner, customers like you and I being left to ponder when we will see our models appear and a spokesman left to deliver a corporate message which frankly says nothing.

It all smacks of a company who either don't have the answers at this time or are in denial.

As Winston Churchill once said;

 

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things"

 

Rob.

[Willie Whizz]

"I sincerely hope that Nat's post will be followed by more to come on a regular basis....but next time without the fulmination that has occurred on this occasion".

 

And so do I - sincerely - but let us all hope he, personally, will have learned something from the experience.  Because (in a spirit of constructive comment) I'd say he has fallen into the classic trap for any marketing man, of speaking to one of his company's audience segments in the tone and content required to address other, very different segments.

 

We should not underestimate - simply because we aren't part of that world - the extent to which 'jargon' in any profession plays a significant part in defining your colleagues' and contacts' opinion of your abilities.  If you don't talk their arcane talk, then to other marketeers (and to financial journalists etc.) you're thought at best an oddity and at worst an out-of-place amateur.  And conversely if you're communicating to Joe Public through Facebook or Twitter then a certain degree of 'dumbing-down' is sadly inevitable.  The experienced, influential and often outspoken modellers who come onto RMWeb are a different breed again, and require a different 'voice' to communicate effectively with us.

 

Someone said a while back on this thread that in reality it was doubtful we'd have got much more actual hard information from Simon Kohler; just that what we heard would have been couched in more acceptable terms for this 'audience'.  I think there's some truth in that; but of course Simon has been doing it for years in this specific market; Nat hasn't.  If the latter is indeed following this thread, I don't doubt he's feeling a little 'bruised' just now; but if he's a true professional, and if the will is genuinely there, he'll learn from it and be better next time.  And he, and Hornby itself, will benefit from that as much as we do.

[alfsboy]

Frankly if I ran a company such as Hornby I wouldnt even bother announcing anything on here let alone  open up myself to abuse from critics who dont do themselves or anyone else especially the hobby any credit at all .It might be worth everyone pondering what  Hornby are selling .Yup ,its toy trains ....

[edcayton]

It was going to be a national disaster if the British motorcycle industry went, the coal mining went, the motor car industry went and the aeroplane manufacturing went.  Compared to these I don't think Hornby is in the same league.  OTT Rob.

 

Ed

[Steven B]

I wouldn't disagree that some retailers do succeed with N but a good number I've spoken to feel that N has better availability for someone walking in off the street than OO because of the of the supply/demand balance; we've got a lot of retailers out there clamouring for 4mm releases whilst N gauge products take longer to shift. The Farish Duchess is a knockout for me but a year or two down the road how many will retailers be selling compared to a Hornby Duchess for example?

 

There are supply problems in N as well as OO. I placed an order with a smaller shop for 8 of the Dapol N Gauge silver bullets when they first came out but only received half of what I'd asked for because the shop had only received half of what they'd ordered from Dapol. Like many others I'm still waiting to finish my HST with a Mk3 TGS. Bachman/Farish have similar problems.

 

There must be some attraction to N Gauge for Hornby otherwise they wouldn't have bothered with the Brighton Belle. Who's to say that OO gauge modellers frustrated at not getting what they want may start looking at the N Gauge shelves which may well have what they're looking for.

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B.

[Multiple identity account]

A very hearty thanks to both Andy and Nat for taking this up.

Cheers!
J.