How do I wire this for eventual DCC use?

[QRModeller]

G'day everyone,

 

Topic title says it all really.  Basically, I'm just trying to future-proof my current layout for when I go DCC, but will be operating it on DC until I do.

 

 

All track is Peco, with electrofrog points (hand operated) and diamond.  I've left gaps in the lines where I think insulated joiners would be.  Fiddle yards are just single lengths of track, with a traverser at the end of the one on the right.

 

 

Feel free to save this image to draw all over then repost.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

Matt.

[96701]

There's no difference between wiring for dc and wiring for DCC. The laws of physics apply equally to both types of electricity.

[Mallard60022]

While we are on the subject, can I just confirm that if I initially wire DC with some isolating sections (switched), then go DCC, I can just switch all those sections 'in' and not have to do anything else when I go DCC?

I realise this might be very basic but I'm useless at electrics.

I'm quite sure that otherwise, as  96701 says, my wiring will be DC but DCC 'ready' for want of a better term.

Oh, I need DC at first as almost all the loco's I'll be using are not DCC ready or do not have DCC fitted.

Thanks.

[96701]

You are quite correct, m'duck.

[bbishop]

I don't agree with your diagram.  Wherever you have isolated the blue wire, isolate the red one as well and vice-versa.  You have to be very rigorous, otherwise you will get dead shorts when you go DCC.  And don't ask me how I know! 

Bill

[Grovenor]

There's no difference between wiring for dc and wiring for DCC. The laws of physics apply equally to both types of electricity.

Unless you want more than one train in DC. Then you have to create sections which are not required for DCC.

Keith

[Grovenor]

I don't agree with your diagram.  Wherever you have isolated the blue wire, isolate the red one as well and vice-versa.  You have to be very rigorous, otherwise you will get dead shorts when you go DCC.  And don't ask me how I know! 

Bill

The diagram is fine except for the two joints in the red rail at the top of the diamond which are not needed, as mentioned by Dutch Master. There are no other insulated joints needed.

(It would be clearer if the frogs needing switching were shown in a different colour, eg green, then all the insulating joints will seperate different colours, I have added modified drawing, insulated joints everywhere that green abuts red or blue, the insulated joints within the turnouts and diamond are built in)

Keith

[96701]

Unless you want more than one train in DC. Then you have to create sections which are not required for DCC.

Keith

Yes, and then you simply switch all the sections on if you want to go DCC. My point is that if you wire a layout such that there is no short when dc is connected, there will also be no short if DCC is connected.

[QRModeller]

Connect all the red rail and all the blue rail and you should be fine, except for the diamond. A diamond is essentially 4 frogs, two of which will have a fixed polarity: the top and bottom ones to the red and blue rail respectively, the left and right frog need polarity change, use the corresponding frog of the nearby points.

 

Cheers Dutch_Master.  Would this would be done with a microswitch?

 

I don't agree with your diagram.  Wherever you have isolated the blue wire, isolate the red one as well and vice-versa.  You have to be very rigorous, otherwise you will get dead shorts when you go DCC.  And don't ask me how I know! 

Bill

 

Hi Bill, I'm guessing you're referring to the gaps where the points are.  I'd drawn the diagram following the instructions for the points which said to have insulated joiners on the two inner rails at the diverging end.

 

Unless you want more than one train in DC. Then you have to create sections which are not required for DCC.

Keith

 

G'day Keith.  It's just a small shunting layout, so only one loco at a time.

 

The diagram is fine except for the two joints in the red rail at the top of the diamond which are not needed, as mentioned by Dutch Master. There are no other insulated joints needed.

 

<snip>

 

Again, was following the instructions for the diamond which said to insulate all rail ends.

 

<snip>

 

the insulated joints within the turnouts and diamond are built in)

 

<snip>

 

So I won't have to modify these in any way?

 

 

Cheers for the help everyone.

 

 

 

Matt.

[Grovenor]

Cheers Dutch_Master.  Would this would be done with a microswitch?

You just connect the frogs for the diamond directly to the frogs for the points, I will add that info to the drawing, the switching will be done by whatever is switching the frog on the points, as supplied this would be via the blade contact with the stock rail, alternatively by a contact on the point motor or a microswitch. There is no extra switch needed for the diamond. However the constraint is that only one route at a time can be set through the diamond.

 

 

Again, was following the instructions for the diamond which said to insulate all rail ends.

The instructions have to be universal so are often not appropriate, if you insulate red from red you just end up adding a wire jumper to bypass the insulation.

 

So I won't have to modify these in any way?

You don't have to modify Peco electrofrog points as delivered, but you may choose to do so to improve reliability. As delivered the frog switching is done by the point blades. This has two problems, 1. Contact becomes unreliable with age/dirt. 2. the open blade is at the opposite polarity to the adjacent stock rail, shorts can occur if this open blade touches the back of passing wheels. If desired you can modify the points to avoid these two problems but you do then have to provide the alternative switching. (Lots of topics covering these mods).

Regards

Keith

[BRealistic]

Hi Matt

 

I'd sure like to create a track diagram (like yours) for the layout I'm about to start 'wiring up' ... and am wondering which software you used to produce it??  I'm a bit of a numpty when it comes to computers AND wiring!!!!

[deadlyduck]

G'day everyone,

 

Topic title says it all really.  Basically, I'm just trying to future-proof my current layout for when I go DCC, but will be operating it on DC until I do.

 

 

All track is Peco, with electrofrog points (hand operated) and diamond.  I've left gaps in the lines where I think insulated joiners would be.  Fiddle yards are just single lengths of track, with a traverser at the end of the one on the right.

 

Wiring.png

 

Feel free to save this image to draw all over then repost.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

Matt.

 

 

 

Hi Matt the 3 ways ive learnt are 1 join a club 2 use youtube some great advise + its shows you what you need to do 3 just punch in your search engine wiring for DCC.I know little of wiring myself but have now wired a big layout learning with the 3 ways ive mentioned

David

[Grovenor]

Hi Matt

 

I'd sure like to create a track diagram (like yours) for the layout I'm about to start 'wiring up' ... and am wondering which software you used to produce it??  I'm a bit of a numpty when it comes to computers AND wiring!!!!

I don't know what programe Matt used initially, there are loads, but to make the amendments I just used Microsoft Paint that comes with windows. There are equivalents in Linux and Mac.

Keith

[QRModeller]

You just connect the frogs for the diamond directly to the frogs for the points, I will add that info to the drawing, the switching will be done by whatever is switching the frog on the points, as supplied this would be via the blade contact with the stock rail, alternatively by a contact on the point motor or a microswitch. There is no extra switch needed for the diamond. However the constraint is that only one route at a time can be set through the diamond.

 

<snip>

 

You don't have to modify Peco electrofrog points as delivered, but you may choose to do so to improve reliability. As delivered the frog switching is done by the point blades. This has two problems, 1. Contact becomes unreliable with age/dirt. 2. the open blade is at the opposite polarity to the adjacent stock rail, shorts can occur if this open blade touches the back of passing wheels. If desired you can modify the points to avoid these two problems but you do then have to provide the alternative switching. (Lots of topics covering these mods).

 

Regards

Keith

 

Cheers Keith.

 

 

Ok, so it sounds like modifying the points will be beneficial, especially given all bar one will be buried ‘in-street’ (point ‘a’ on you modded diagram).  Should I go down this route, would I be right in saying a microswitch on point ‘d’ would be able to change the polarity of both frogs on the diamond?  Point ‘c’ is one end of a run-around loop, and it makes sense to me to make the lesser used point of the two (point ‘d’) as the one to change the diamonds’ polarity when needed.

 

 

Also, would modifying the points then require the use of a frog juicer?

 

 

Hi Matt

 

I'd sure like to create a track diagram (like yours) for the layout I'm about to start 'wiring up' ... and am wondering which software you used to produce it??  I'm a bit of a numpty when it comes to computers AND wiring!!!!

 

Hi BRealistic,

 

 

I used a highly technical drawing program that took me months to learn- well, that’s how I remember it!  It was just the shapes tool in MS Word, then screen grabbed and pasted into MS Paint to save as a .png file!

 

 

Hi Matt the 3 ways ive learnt are 1 join a club 2 use youtube some great advise + its shows you what you need to do 3 just punch in your search engine wiring for DCC.I know little of wiring myself but have now wired a big layout learning with the 3 ways ive mentioned

 

David

 

Thanks David!

 

 

I have considered joining a club in the past but never followed through with it.  Maybe it’s time to!  Until then, looks like the internet bill is going to cop a beating!

 

 

 

Cheers everyone!

 

 

 

 

Matt.

 

[Grovenor]

Cheers Keith. 

Ok, so it sounds like modifying the points will be beneficial, especially given all bar one will be buried ‘in-street’ (point ‘a’ on you modded diagram).  Should I go down this route, would I be right in saying a microswitch on point ‘d’ would be able to change the polarity of both frogs on the diamond?

No. The two frogs on the diamond are of opposite polarity and must be on seperate microswitches, hence one connects to point C and one to point D as I showed on the diagram.

 

Point ‘c’ is one end of a run-around loop, and it makes sense to me to make the lesser used point of the two (point ‘d’) as the one to change the diamonds’ polarity when needed.

As I drew it with both points C and D set straight both of the diamond frogs will be set to the red rail and you can't run through the diamond. Whichever point C or D you throw will set the relevant frog to blue so you can run through.

 

 

Also, would modifying the points then require the use of a frog juicer?

No. using microswitches for switching the frogs avoids the need for a frog juicer. Frog juicers are an alternative way of switching frogs, if you want to use that then there is no need of microswitches.

Regards

Keith

[QRModeller]

No. The two frogs on the diamond are of opposite polarity and must be on seperate microswitches, hence one connects to point C and one to point D as I showed on the diagram.

 

<snip>

 

As I drew it with both points C and D set straight both of the diamond frogs will be set to the red rail and you can't run through the diamond. Whichever point C or D you throw will set the relevant frog to blue so you can run through.

 

<snip>

 

Ok, got it now.  Thanks Keith!

 

No. using microswitches for switching the frogs avoids the need for a frog juicer. Frog juicers are an alternative way of switching frogs, if you want to use that then there is no need of microswitches.

Regards

Keith

 

Ahh, so it's a microswitch or frog juicer, not both.

 

What would be the best to use for both DC and DCC, as I've read in a few places that frog juicers only work on DCC, and I'm not quite sure how that is meant (other than the obvious).  Will just sit there and not switch the frogs' polarity on DC, or will something else happen, like it gets fried?

 

 

Cheers for the help.

 

 

 

Matt

[Grovenor]

What would be the best to use for both DC and DCC, as I've read in a few places that frog juicers only work on DCC, and I'm not quite sure how that is meant (other than the obvious). Will just sit there and not switch the frogs' polarity on DC, or will something else happen, like it gets fried?

I would use the microswitches every time, the cost difference is substantial!

I would not expect the frog juicer to work well, if at all, on DC as it depends on detecting a short circuit very quickly, a train running slowly on DC will have a high impedance supply that will not give enough current into a short to trigger the frog juicer, the train will just stop and you will have to move it by hand to clear the short. Might or might not damage the juicer.

 

NB. Using microswitches you can get a short if you drive into the diamond with the points wrongly set, but all you have to do to correct the problem is change the points and the train can then be driven off.

Regards

Keith

[QRModeller]

Cheers Keith!

 

Made up my mind now - would rather not fork out for an expensive bit of kit, only for it to possibly go wrong/not work.  It should also be easier (and as you said, cheaper!) to replace microswitches should something happen to them!

 

Thank you for all your help, I really appreciate it!

 

 

 

Matt.

[Izzy]

While we are on the subject, can I just confirm that if I initially wire DC with some isolating sections (switched), then go DCC, I can just switch all those sections 'in' and not have to do anything else when I go DCC?

I realise this might be very basic but I'm useless at electrics.

I'm quite sure that otherwise, as  96701 says, my wiring will be DC but DCC 'ready' for want of a better term.

Oh, I need DC at first as almost all the loco's I'll be using are not DCC ready or do not have DCC fitted.

Thanks.

Although I have used DCC for a few years now, that is how I 'converted' my layout when I first changed, and I still wire my layouts in exactly the same way as I have always done, so that should I choose, I can plug in a DC system instead of a DCC one.

 

Izzy