Mid-Cornwall Lines - 1950s Western Region in 00

[Oldddudders]

43 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Are you trying to get me into trouble? It's Veronica not Victoria...

Isn't Victoria the next one down from NSW? Sounds like a nice girl!

[Sharky]

57 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Isn't Victoria the next one down from NSW? Sounds like a nice girl!

She's quite nice.
Beautiful Scenery.
Some Lovely Hills and Valleys to climb up and down. Some Dark Caves to explore aswell.
 

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, Stubby47 said:

This was the post that got me wondering:

 

Gut feel for that photo is that the van is just ‘still’ on the back as it’s a down train backing in.

Paul.

[Oldddudders]

4 hours ago, Sharky said:

She's quite nice.
Beautiful Scenery.
Some Lovely Hills and Valleys to climb up and down. Some Dark Caves to explore aswell.
 

Never likely to fly that far, but Sherry has a daughter in Geelong. 

[St Enodoc]

3 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Never likely to fly that far, but Sherry has a daughter in Geelong. 

If ever you do, there's always a welcome in Mid-Cornwall, which is only half a day away.

[5BarVT]

On 27/06/2021 at 09:41, St Enodoc said:

 

I then decided to make a little photo-story to show how Wheal Veronica is shunted (the sequence is exactly the same as when we were using Porthmellyn Road Chapel Sidings temporarily, of course).

 

The incoming empties from St Blazey arrive at St Enodoc Loop.

 

The loco runs round...

 

...and propels the train up the incline...

 

...into Wheal Veronica siding 2.

 

The loco uncouples and shunts...

 

...to Wheal Veronica siding 1 and couples to the fulls.

 

The loco then hauls the fulls down the incline until it is clear of the point...

 

...and propels them into Wheal Veronica siding 2, coupling the fulls to the empties.

 

The loco hauls the combined train down the incline until it is clear of the point...

 

...and propels it all into Wheal Veronica siding 1, uncoupling the empties from the brake van.

 

Finally the loco hauls the fulls and the brake van down the incline...

 

...to St Enodoc Loop where it will await the road for departure to St Blazey.

 

That sequence has given me an idea for coping with lightweight engines: having collected the fulls and connected to the van, the fulls could be tripped down to St. Enodoc then the engine return to Wheal Veronica to transfer the fulls empties into the loading siding before returning to its train.  Makes the operation different depending on the loco.

Just needs a limit on wagon numbers depending on class in your local instructions.

Paul.

Edited June 30, 2021 by 5BarVT
‘Cos wot I wrote woz garbage!

[LNER4479]

19 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Isn't Victoria the next one down from NSW? Sounds like a nice girl!

And she's got the Puffing Billy Railway 

[St Enodoc]

21 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

That sequence has given me an idea for coping with lightweight engines: having collected the fulls and connected to the van, the fulls could be tripped down to St. Enodoc then the engine return to Wheal Veronica to transfer the fulls into the loading siding before returning to its train.  Makes the operation different depending on the loco.

Just needs a limit on wagon numbers depending on class in your local instructions.

Paul.

Thanks Paul. 7446 is fine now, so all the shunting can be done at the end of the branch. Anyway, your suggestion might make sense for modellers but would run against the prototype method of getting the job done as quickly as possible so the crew can get back to their teapot!

Edited June 30, 2021 by St Enodoc

[St Enodoc]

1 minute ago, LNER4479 said:

And she's got the Puffing Billy Railway 

...and we've got the Zig-Zag Railway.

[LNER4479]

3 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

...and we've got the Zig-Zag Railway.

I gather that's been in the wars in recent years?

[St Enodoc]

1 minute ago, LNER4479 said:

I gather that's been in the wars in recent years?

Yes, it has, but much to my surprise (and delight) it seems to be on the point of being able to re-open again.

 

https://www.zigzagrailway.com.au/

[Stubby47]

28 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

That sequence has given me an idea for coping with lightweight engines: having collected the fulls and connected to the van, the fulls could be tripped down to St. Enodoc then the engine return to Wheal Veronica to transfer the fulls into the loading siding before returning to its train.  Makes the operation different depending on the loco.

Just needs a limit on wagon numbers depending on class in your local instructions.

Paul.

 

That would also mean the empties would need to be loaded in the time it takes the train of fulls to get to St E and the loco detach & return - not sure the clay wagons would be loaded that quickly.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

45 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

That sequence has given me an idea for coping with lightweight engines: having collected the fulls and connected to the van, the fulls could be tripped down to St. Enodoc then the engine return to Wheal Veronica to transfer the fulls into the loading siding before returning to its train.  Makes the operation different depending on the loco.

Just needs a limit on wagon numbers depending on class in your local instructions.

Paul.

 

I may have misunderstood, but I wanted to read this as “the engine returns to Wheal Veronica to transfer the empties into the loading siding…”

 

The theory being that the longer train of engine + fulls + brake + empties is too heavy for the smaller engine to push (further) uphill, with this also being on the curve. 

 

15 minutes ago, Stubby47 said:

 

That would also mean the empties would need to be loaded in the time it takes the train of fulls to get to St E and the loco detach & return - not sure the clay wagons would be loaded that quickly.

 

If I’ve understood it correctly, I think that would answer Stu’s point about the time taken to load the wagons: there are no wagons available for loading while the trip run of fulls goes down to the station - loading can only start after the light engine returns and shunts the empties into the now clear loading siding.

 

Is that feasible?

 

The option I was thinking of - but may or may not be permissible - would be for the brake van to be kept at the front of the train as it is tripped up the hill (which to me seems safer as it gives better visibility if the brake van leads).  The brake van is left alone in the open siding while the empties are switched with the fulls.  The brake van is then coupled up behind the fulls and the trip goes back down the hill.  The weakness in my sequence - which may disallow it - is that there is no brake van during the downhill / uphill switching move round the curve with all the wagons, so no safety braking option.  I defer to those with experience here.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Keith Addenbrooke

[5BarVT]

42 minutes ago, Stubby47 said:

 

That would also mean the empties would need to be loaded in the time it takes the train of fulls to get to St E and the loco detach & return - not sure the clay wagons would be loaded that quickly.

 

29 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

I may have misunderstood, but I wanted to read this as “the engine returns to Wheal Veronica to transfer the empties into the loading siding…”

Oops, the typing equivalent of EBBOM.  I did mean empties.

I will now go away and write out 100 times “I will proof read my entries properly before posting.”

Thank goodness for copy and paste!

Paul.

[5BarVT]

5 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

 

I will now go away and write out 100 times “I will proof read my entries properly before posting.”

Done that.  Actually 128 (2^7) as it was easier than counting out the last 36.

;-)

Paul.

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

The option I was thinking of - but may or may not be permissible - would be for the brake van to be kept at the front of the train as it is tripped up the hill (which to me seems safer as it gives better visibility if the brake van leads).  The brake van is left alone in the open siding while the empties are switched with the fulls.  The brake van is then coupled up behind the fulls and the trip goes back down the hill.  The weakness in my sequence - which may disallow it - is that there is no brake van during the downhill / uphill switching move round the curve with all the wagons, so no safety braking option.  I defer to those with experience here.

Ahh . . .

That brings me onto my next buqqeration factor (also needing operations experience to confirm).  Stubby’s photo of the Warship propelling onto Hayle Wharves and the question about whether a van is needed at the front when propelling sent me off into sectional appendices.  Unfortunately, I can’t find the GWR Plymouth section online (would have been current in ‘57) so I’m having to go off the 1960 BR style edition.  I suspect that most of the content will be largely unchanged, just put in BR format.

So on to the detail.

Table F is authorised propelling moves and has in the preamble “When propelling freight vehicles outside station limits a Guard's brake van must be the leading vehicle, unless otherwise indicated, and the Guard or Shunter must ride therein.”

The actual entry is:

 

Bugle to Carbis Wharf

Wagons for Carbis Wharf or any intermediate siding may be pushed in front of the engine from Bugle Station.
Speed must not exceed 8 m.p.h. Instructions shown on page 134

Page 134 is the Local Instructions for Bugle:

BUGLE.
SHUNTING TRAINS, ETC.
The line falls I in 100 from this station to Goonbarrow Junction, and Rule 151 applies.
In order to facilitate the work at Bugle Station, the Carbis Branch Home Signal has been fixed at a point 650 yards from the Signal Box, and the line on the Bugle Station side of such Home Signal may be occupied for shunting purposes, or for refuging a Freight train for a Passenger train to pass.
The Bugle Signalman has the custody of the Carbis Branch Train Staff, and he is responsible for handing it to and collecting it from the Drivers of all trains working over that Branch.
Wagons for Carbis Wharf, or any intermediate Siding, may be pushed by engine from Bugle Station, speed not to exceed eight miles per hour.
When returning from Martins and Great Beam Sidings trains must stop at the Yard Gate until the Trainmen are instructed to proceed, verbally or by handsignal from the Shunter, who must first satisfy himself that it is safe for the train to enter the Loop at Bugle.
 

The train staff (to me) implies that the line is outside station limits and thus needs a brake van when propelling.  Thus when running round at St. Enodoc before propelling, the brake van also needs to be shunted to the Wheal Veronica end too (with the local instructions making provision for that).  It makes the shunting slightly different at the sidings too, but does reduce (slightly) the number of wagons on the gradient when shunting.   Van to empty siding; back (with empties) to collect fulls; fulls onto van: empties into loading siding; loco onto train and away to St. Enodoc.

 

Paul.

[Denbridge]

13 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

Ahh . . .

That brings me onto my next buqqeration factor (also needing operations experience to confirm).  Stubby’s photo of the Warship propelling onto Hayle Wharves and the question about whether a van is needed at the front when propelling sent me off into sectional appendices.  Unfortunately, I can’t find the GWR Plymouth section online (would have been current in ‘57) so I’m having to go off the 1960 BR style edition.  I suspect that most of the content will be largely unchanged, just put in BR format.

So on to the detail.

Table F is authorised propelling moves and has in the preamble “When propelling freight vehicles outside station limits a Guard's brake van must be the leading vehicle, unless otherwise indicated, and the Guard or Shunter must ride therein.”

The actual entry is:

 

Bugle to Carbis Wharf

Wagons for Carbis Wharf or any intermediate siding may be pushed in front of the engine from Bugle Station.
Speed must not exceed 8 m.p.h. Instructions shown on page 134

Page 134 is the Local Instructions for Bugle:

BUGLE.
SHUNTING TRAINS, ETC.
The line falls I in 100 from this station to Goonbarrow Junction, and Rule 151 applies.
In order to facilitate the work at Bugle Station, the Carbis Branch Home Signal has been fixed at a point 650 yards from the Signal Box, and the line on the Bugle Station side of such Home Signal may be occupied for shunting purposes, or for refuging a Freight train for a Passenger train to pass.
The Bugle Signalman has the custody of the Carbis Branch Train Staff, and he is responsible for handing it to and collecting it from the Drivers of all trains working over that Branch.
Wagons for Carbis Wharf, or any intermediate Siding, may be pushed by engine from Bugle Station, speed not to exceed eight miles per hour.
When returning from Martins and Great Beam Sidings trains must stop at the Yard Gate until the Trainmen are instructed to proceed, verbally or by handsignal from the Shunter, who must first satisfy himself that it is safe for the train to enter the Loop at Bugle.
 

The train staff (to me) implies that the line is outside station limits and thus needs a brake van when propelling.  Thus when running round at St. Enodoc before propelling, the brake van also needs to be shunted to the Wheal Veronica end too (with the local instructions making provision for that).  It makes the shunting slightly different at the sidings too, but does reduce (slightly) the number of wagons on the gradient when shunting.   Van to empty siding; back (with empties) to collect fulls; fulls onto van: empties into loading siding; loco onto train and away to St. Enodoc.

 

Paul.

I think the key paragraph is;

"The line falls I in 100 from this station to Goonbarrow Junction, and Rule 151 applies.
In order to facilitate the work at Bugle Station, the Carbis Branch Home Signal has been fixed at a point 650 yards from the Signal Box, and the line on the Bugle Station side of such Home Signal may be occupied for shunting purposes, or for refuging a Freight train for a Passenger train to pass"

Owing to the line falling at 1in100 the brakevan would lead the wagons so that the guard could control the wagons should a coupling break on the descending gradient. However, since the clays branch from St Enodoc climbs to the kilns, it would be permissible to keep the brakevan at the tail of the wagons as demonstated.

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

The option I was thinking of - but may or may not be permissible - would be for the brake van to be kept at the front of the train as it is tripped up the hill (which to me seems safer as it gives better visibility if the brake van leads).  

 

6 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

Ahh . . .

That brings me onto my next buqqeration factor (also needing operations experience to confirm).  Stubby’s photo of the Warship propelling onto Hayle Wharves and the question about whether a van is needed at the front when propelling sent me off into sectional appendices.  Unfortunately, I can’t find the GWR Plymouth section online (would have been current in ‘57) so I’m having to go off the 1960 BR style edition.  I suspect that most of the content will be largely unchanged, just put in BR format.

So on to the detail.

Table F is authorised propelling moves and has in the preamble “When propelling freight vehicles outside station limits a Guard's brake van must be the leading vehicle, unless otherwise indicated, and the Guard or Shunter must ride therein.”

The actual entry is:

 

Bugle to Carbis Wharf

Wagons for Carbis Wharf or any intermediate siding may be pushed in front of the engine from Bugle Station.
Speed must not exceed 8 m.p.h. Instructions shown on page 134

Page 134 is the Local Instructions for Bugle:

BUGLE.
SHUNTING TRAINS, ETC.
The line falls I in 100 from this station to Goonbarrow Junction, and Rule 151 applies.
In order to facilitate the work at Bugle Station, the Carbis Branch Home Signal has been fixed at a point 650 yards from the Signal Box, and the line on the Bugle Station side of such Home Signal may be occupied for shunting purposes, or for refuging a Freight train for a Passenger train to pass.
The Bugle Signalman has the custody of the Carbis Branch Train Staff, and he is responsible for handing it to and collecting it from the Drivers of all trains working over that Branch.
Wagons for Carbis Wharf, or any intermediate Siding, may be pushed by engine from Bugle Station, speed not to exceed eight miles per hour.
When returning from Martins and Great Beam Sidings trains must stop at the Yard Gate until the Trainmen are instructed to proceed, verbally or by handsignal from the Shunter, who must first satisfy himself that it is safe for the train to enter the Loop at Bugle.
 

The train staff (to me) implies that the line is outside station limits and thus needs a brake van when propelling.  Thus when running round at St. Enodoc before propelling, the brake van also needs to be shunted to the Wheal Veronica end too (with the local instructions making provision for that).  It makes the shunting slightly different at the sidings too, but does reduce (slightly) the number of wagons on the gradient when shunting.   Van to empty siding; back (with empties) to collect fulls; fulls onto van: empties into loading siding; loco onto train and away to St. Enodoc.

 

Paul.

 

4 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

I think the key paragraph is;

"The line falls I in 100 from this station to Goonbarrow Junction, and Rule 151 applies.
In order to facilitate the work at Bugle Station, the Carbis Branch Home Signal has been fixed at a point 650 yards from the Signal Box, and the line on the Bugle Station side of such Home Signal may be occupied for shunting purposes, or for refuging a Freight train for a Passenger train to pass"

Owing to the line falling at 1in100 the brakevan would lead the wagons so that the guard could control the wagons should a coupling break on the descending gradient. However, since the clays branch from St Enodoc climbs to the kilns, it would be permissible to keep the brakevan at the tail of the wagons as demonstated.

 

Keith @Keith Addenbrooke, propelling with the BV leading would need an extra shunt at St Enodoc to get the BV to the other end of the train before the propelling move. The real Carbis branch had its own, separate, loop which would make that easier but there isn't room for that on the layout so it would be a little more complicated. I don't think there'd be a problem not having a BV attached while the actual shunting at Wheal Veronica was going on though.

 

Paul @5BarVT, did you find the 1960 SA on line or do you happen to have a paper version? Is there anything in Table C2 that might help? The bit about using the Carbis branch for refuging is interesting although I'm unlikely to need to do that (again, the extra loop would help here).

 

@Denbridge, there seem to be two separate parts to that instruction. From Bugle to Goonbarrow Junction is in the Up direction, away from Wheal Veronica. Rule 151 simply requires the guard to apply the hand brake before leaving his van. The second part of the instruction relates to the other, Down, end of Bugle station and is, I think, unrelated to the first.

 

Anyway, it's all given me lots of food for thought, which I will digest more fully and work out whether or not I might have to change the way St Enodoc and Wheal Veronica are worked. Unfortunately I've yet to find a photo of a train on the Carbis branch itself in steam days to confirm one way or the other.

[Oldddudders]

With the loco always at the downhill end of the train, runaways are less likely to be an issue. I think that gives St E considerable flexibility within the constraints of a nominated max speed, and sensible handling of the loco. Pinning down one or two brakes might further limit problems, were that needed.  

[St Enodoc]

2 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

With the loco always at the downhill end of the train, runaways are less likely to be an issue. I think that gives St E considerable flexibility within the constraints of a nominated max speed, and sensible handling of the loco. Pinning down one or two brakes might further limit problems, were that needed.  

That's quite true on the model, Ian, which is why I chose it. However, the real Carbis branch, although mostly uphill, had a short section of downhill which might invalidate that theory.

 

Since my last post it's occurred to me that a BV at both ends would save the extra shunt at SE. Although that was uncommon it did happen, for example between Wenford Bridge and Fowey where three reversals were needed (Boscarne Junction, Bodmin General and Bodmin Road).

[Keith Addenbrooke]

11 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Keith @Keith Addenbrooke, propelling with the BV leading would need an extra shunt at St Enodoc to get the BV to the other end of the train before the propelling move. The real Carbis branch had its own, separate, loop which would make that easier but there isn't room for that on the layout so it would be a little more complicated. I don't think there'd be a problem not having a BV attached while the actual shunting at Wheal Veronica was going on though.

 

11 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

With the loco always at the downhill end of the train, runaways are less likely to be an issue. I think that gives St E considerable flexibility within the constraints of a nominated max speed, and sensible handling of the loco. Pinning down one or two brakes might further limit problems, were that needed.  

I was just reading through the updates and reached the same conclusion: the extra shunting move my sequence requires at St E station before starting is the faff I’d not considered, and with the Loco always at the downhill end throughout the manoeuvres the original sequence as per the photo story board still works…

 

…although the great unknown for me remains the question of visibility around the curve and whether local regulations would need to address that if it was too restricted.  But on this point I think we’ve already been told to wait and see…

 

(I was also thinking of the double brake van idea - which has just been posted too)

Edited June 30, 2021 by Keith Addenbrooke

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

Paul @5BarVT, did you find the 1960 SA on line or do you happen to have a paper version?

I suspect that I've found the answer, which is that as a paid-up SRS member you were able to download it from their site. Perhaps I should join...

[Chamby]

A couple of photo’s of steam on the Carbis branch:

 

Page 127 of British Railways Past and Present No.54 (East Cornwall) shows a brake van excursion with two prairies propelling around 10 brake vans into the wharf.  It shows that there is a raised wharf alongside the siding furthest away from the dries.  ISBN 1-85895-244-1

 

Also BRP&P No. 17 (Cornwall) page 85 shows Pannier No 1664 alongside the dries, bunker facing towards Bugle, coupled at its firebox end to two Toad brake vans, both with their verandah’s facing Bugle.  So double brake van working might be implied?  The raised wharf is also visible, it looks to be reduced to about 3-4 wagons long (July 1960).    ISBN 1-85895-060-0

 

I don’t have any photo’s of clay wagons at the site, though.  Most of the available photos are rail tour related, rather than day-to-day working.

[5BarVT]

4 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

I suspect that I've found the answer, which is that as a paid-up SRS member you were able to download it from their site.

Correct.

5 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Is there anything in Table C2 that might help?

Good question.  I have now discovered that the C2 concept appears not to have existed in 1960.  Table C lists no block lines, of which there are none on the Plymouth District as there is no table C.

 

4 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Perhaps I should join...

We’ll make a signal engineer of you yet!  Though this is more about being an operator than signal engineering.

There is a lot of good stuff in the SRS archive, some of which is available to all but quite a lot which is members only.

Good job I was retired before I discovered it, didn’t have time before!

Paul.

[St Enodoc]

6 hours ago, Chamby said:

A couple of photo’s of steam on the Carbis branch:

 

Page 127 of British Railways Past and Present No.54 (East Cornwall) shows a brake van excursion with two prairies propelling around 10 brake vans into the wharf.  It shows that there is a raised wharf alongside the siding furthest away from the dries.  ISBN 1-85895-244-1

 

Also BRP&P No. 17 (Cornwall) page 85 shows Pannier No 1664 alongside the dries, bunker facing towards Bugle, coupled at its firebox end to two Toad brake vans, both with their verandah’s facing Bugle.  So double brake van working might be implied?  The raised wharf is also visible, it looks to be reduced to about 3-4 wagons long (July 1960).    ISBN 1-85895-060-0

 

I don’t have any photo’s of clay wagons at the site, though.  Most of the available photos are rail tour related, rather than day-to-day working.

Thanks Phil. There are lots of photos around of the brake van special at different places and I've seen the other photo you mention elsewhere.

 

One of my books has a photo of two panniers with a train of loaded clay wagons and two brake vans at Bugle, having returned from Carbis, but like you I've found nothing of actual clay trains (ideally empty) on the branch itself (in steam days - lots from the diesel/air-braked era).

Edited June 30, 2021 by St Enodoc