Class 800 - Updates

[Zomboid]

Absolutely...but my first question would be...WHY would the Metoffice need to do that????? Yet they do.

The met office don't. It's the news media who need to sell papers and generate clicks.

[D854_Tiger]

It may be of some comfort to know then that in the world of commercial aviation, on the mainland, heights and altitudes are given in feet, most distances are given in nautical miles and speeds are given in knots (rather than vulgar and simple metric units). Even the French do this, all in the name of maintaining some sort of, what you might call, concorde

 

The French ATC and pilots are supposed to speak English as well, rules they agreed to, but, according to all the complaints in the airline forums on the ground the chauvinistic s**s often don't sometimes throwing foreign pilots into confusion because they are not sure what is going on.

 

Then it's the German pilots that most complain about it.

[APOLLO]

Emirates Airbus A380 zero two one you are clear to taxi when the Lufthansa Fokker in front of you has departed !!!!!!!!!

 

Allegedly, a Pan Am 727 flight waiting for start clearance in Munich overheard the following:
Lufthansa (in German): “Ground, what is our start clearance time?”
Ground (in English): “If you want an answer you must speak in English.”
Lufthansa (in English): “I am a German, flying a German airplane, in Germany. Why must I speak English?”
Unknown voice from another plane (in a beautiful British accent): “Because you lost the bloody war.”

 

Brit15

Edited December 10, 2017 by APOLLO

[The Pilotman]

The French ATC and pilots are supposed to speak English as well, rules they agreed to, but, according to all the complaints in the airline forums on the ground the chauvinistic s**s often don't sometimes throwing foreign pilots into confusion because they are not sure what is going on.

 

Then it's the German pilots that most complain about it.

French Air Traffic Controllers and pilots do speak English; just not to each other over and in their own country. This also happens in Russia, and to a much lesser extent, Spain and Italy. It’s not an ideal situation but it’s unlikely to change anytime soon and so it is accepted as an extra “risk” when operating into French airports. Anyway, enough thread creep; back to the subject in hand.

[Geoff Endacott]

So do the drivers of Class 800s have to speak Japanese?

 

Geoff Endacott

[Coryton]

So do the drivers of Class 800s have to speak Japanese?

 

Geoff Endacott

 

Some years ago I looked through the window behind the cab of a Japanese tram.

 

The controls were labelled in Katakana, which is a Japanese "alphabet" used (among other things) for foreign words.

 

It is restricted to the syllables making up Japanese (mostly consonent+vowel) but it was clear that they were saying things like "door" (don't they have their own word in Japanese for a door?), "windscreen wiper", and "winker".

[St. Simon]

I keep looking at that photo, and all i can think of is the modern railway keeps stressing that drivers have so much resposiblity over driving the train in safety, and the DaFT in the interest of cutting costs are placing more onto the drivers. Look at the photo, i can see the door controls, train management system, NRN, TPWS, driver vigalence devices, probably ATP (not sure about that). Having only one safety critical person per train, with all that workload? 

 

Hi,

 

Door controls are only to be touched when the train is stationary, the train management system is set up upon start up when the train is stationary and doesn't need to be touched after that, so is ATP, the GSMR (not NRN) only needs to be used if the driver wants to talk to the signaller (i.e. not constantly) and a driver shouldn't need to interact with TPWS (and if he does he has probably got bigger problems), 

 

Having been on a cabride and in talking with drivers, there is very little for the driver to be doing in day to day operation for the IEPs other than concentrating on acceleration / braking, cancelling AWS and the Drivers Vigilance Device (the normal driver tasks), no more than an HST. Trains such as the 80x's are designed so that the train can deal with itself without distracting the driver unnecessarily and to reduce the workload on the driver, even down to the train having a system which notifies Hitachi via WiFi of problems at the touch of a problem, reducing the need for drivers to ring control to report faults.

 

None of the systems in the cab are there to cut costs, not one of them. Please state one system in that cab that was installed purely to cut costs (and has resulted in them).

 

Simon

[bimble]

Mind you, he would have been as confused as I was this morning by those treacherous b******s at the BBC insisting on giving us the level of snow in cms, not inches the way I think, why can't they speak English I had to explain what a cm was to my old mom.

 

There was a photo from Wales on the BBC website today with the caption "a snow stick shows 20cm of fall in the Brecon Beacons"... though if you looked at the photo, the snow stick was obviously in inches and was showing 8" of fall!

[Coryton]

Hi,

 

Door controls are only to be touched when the train is stationary, the train management system is set up upon start up when the train is stationary and doesn't need to be touched after that, so is ATP, the GSMR (not NRN) only needs to be used if the driver wants to talk to the signaller (i.e. not constantly) and a driver shouldn't need to interact with TPWS (and if he does he has probably got bigger problems), 

 

Having been on a cabride and in talking with drivers, there is very little for the driver to be doing in day to day operation for the IEPs other than concentrating on acceleration / braking, cancelling AWS and the Drivers Vigilance Device (the normal driver tasks), no more than an HST. Trains such as the 80x's are designed so that the train can deal with itself without distracting the driver unnecessarily and to reduce the workload on the driver, even down to the train having a system which notifies Hitachi via WiFi of problems at the touch of a problem, reducing the need for drivers to ring control to report faults.

 

None of the systems in the cab are there to cut costs, not one of them. Please state one system in that cab that was installed purely to cut costs (and has resulted in them).

 

Simon

 

Having door controls in the cab rather than for the guard to work could be seen as a move to cut costs (and I know there are other justifications available).

[Geoff Endacott]

Putting handles on the doors would probably cut costs.

 

Geoff Endacott

[Ken.W]

Having door controls in the cab rather than for the guard to work could be seen as a move to cut costs (and I know there are other justifications available).

As far as I understand (not having been on one yet) the door controls are there as there's no Guard's office on the sets, and the Guard will work them from the rear cab.

The two screens on the left show the cctv images from the door cameras

[Ken.W]

About the only bits which are correct are the pay and the large number of applicants, as for your qualifications line I am pleased to report that the railways have not fallen for the 'I have a degree so am clever' line and recruit purely on life experience and ability to learn (hence the psycho tests applicants have to go through)

 

Or, in the case of one TOC, the ability to incorporate as many as possible of the Corporate B***s**t, sorry, erm, Values Buzzwords into one's application

[Coryton]

As far as I understand (not having been on one yet) the door controls are there as there's no Guard's office on the sets, and the Guard will work them from the rear cab.

The two screens on the left show the cctv images from the door cameras

 

Hmmm.

 

If they really have put door control in the cabs only and not alongside passengers doors, I would say that is a pretty big clue that the trains are designed for driver not guard worked doors.

 

Expecting a guard to get to the back cab of a 9 coach set to release doors at every station isn't terribly practical.

 

Even on the rare modern trains which specifically have guards' accommodation, I don't think the door controls are located there.

[St. Simon]

Hmmm.

 

If they really have put door control in the cabs only and not alongside passengers doors, I would say that is a pretty big clue that the trains are designed for driver not guard worked doors.

 

Expecting a guard to get to the back cab of a 9 coach set to release doors at every station isn't terribly practical.

 

Even on the rare modern trains which specifically have guards' accommodation, I don't think the door controls are located there.

Hi,

 

The Hitachi Engineers said that there are door closing controls next to the passenger doors, with the driver only releasing the doors and the guards actually opening and closing the doors.

 

The trains are designed primarily for Driver Door Operation, but guard working of the doors is quite achievable. I have to say that the bodyside CCTV is very good.

 

Simon

[caradoc]

IIRC the Voyagers when introduced were designed for the Driver to release the doors when the train had come to a stand in the correct position, to avoid the situation where the Guard/Conductor/Train Manager is in the middle of a complicated ticket/passenger issue when the train arrives at a station, thus causing delay. The Guard etc is still responsible for closing the doors and authorising the Driver to start off.

[Coryton]

IIRC the Voyagers when introduced were designed for the Driver to release the doors when the train had come to a stand in the correct position, to avoid the situation where the Guard/Conductor/Train Manager is in the middle of a complicated ticket/passenger issue when the train arrives at a station, thus causing delay. The Guard etc is still responsible for closing the doors and authorising the Driver to start off.

 

That's how it used to work on Southern before the controversial changes. It seemed a very good arrangement to me.

 

I've read here that the guard on Voyagers has no direct control over the doors - they make the decision to close the doors and buzz the driver to tell them to press the button.

[Ken.W]

Hmmm.

 

If they really have put door control in the cabs only and not alongside passengers doors, I would say that is a pretty big clue that the trains are designed for driver not guard worked doors.

 

Expecting a guard to get to the back cab of a 9 coach set to release doors at every station isn't terribly practical.

 

Even on the rare modern trains which specifically have guards' accommodation, I don't think the door controls are located there.

Things are still rather vague with no details of operation yet, but so far there's no suggestion the doors will be driver operated on VTEC (perhaps someone could post how GW are operating them?)

 

The guard's already expected to get back to the rear of the existing 9 coach sets at most stations as it is, the Train Dispatch Matrix detailing positions for platform staff and guards requires, in most cases, guards dispatch from the rear (usually from rear 3)

 

Door controls are also located at the guard's door on both Mk4 and HST sets

 

IIRC the Voyagers when introduced were designed for the Driver to release the doors when the train had come to a stand in the correct position, to avoid the situation where the Guard/Conductor/Train Manager is in the middle of a complicated ticket/passenger issue when the train arrives at a station, thus causing delay. The Guard etc is still responsible for closing the doors and authorising the Driver to start off.

Or avoiding the situation where a Guard releases the doors when the train's not correctly platformed

 

That's how it used to work on Southern before the controversial changes. It seemed a very good arrangement to me.

 

I've read here that the guard on Voyagers has no direct control over the doors - they make the decision to close the doors and buzz the driver to tell them to press the button.

When traveling on a voyager (something avoided if possible!), the 1-2 signal can often be heard for the doors to be closed, then the usual 2 ready to start

Edited December 11, 2017 by Ken.W

[St. Simon]

Things are still rather vague with no details of operation yet, but so far there's no suggestion the doors will be driver operated on VTEC (perhaps someone could post how GW are operating them?)

 

See my post #2314, how the Hitachi Engineers described it is how GWR are currently operating them.

 

Simon

[royaloak]

Expecting a guard to get to the back cab of a 9 coach set to release doors at every station isn't terribly practical.

Especially as the 9th coach wont always be platformed.

[jim.snowdon]

See my post #2314, how the Hitachi Engineers described it is how GWR are currently operating them.

 

Simon

And it makes a lot of common sense. The driver is the only one who knows that he has got the train in the platform, at the right place, and apart from that, no-one else needs to observe the platform for the doors to be released. Closing the doors is different in that it is sensible for them to be observed as clear before and after closure, before the train is started. But, that can be done by either a crew member at any suitable place along the length of the train, or by the driver if he is provided with a good view down th elength of the train. There is a separate argument as to whether a pair of eyes capable of looking up and down the platform is, or is not, better than a series of cctv cameras showing a multiplicity of small pictures in the driver's cab.

 

Jim

[Ken.W]

See my post #2314, how the Hitachi Engineers described it is how GWR are currently operating them.

Simon

Thanks. I've heard rumours that's how VTEC will operate them, but as fa as I know, nothing's yet agreed.

 

  

And it makes a lot of common sense. The driver is the only one who knows that he has got the train in the platform, at the right place, and apart from that, no-one else needs to observe the platform for the doors to be released. Closing the doors is different in that it is sensible for them to be observed as clear before and after closure, before the train is started. But, that can be done by either a crew member at any suitable place along the length of the train, or by the driver if he is provided with a good view down th elength of the train. There is a separate argument as to whether a pair of eyes capable of looking up and down the platform is, or is not, better than a series of cctv cameras showing a multiplicity of small pictures in the driver's cab.

Jim

Yes, it seems to make sense as the driver knows the train's platformed correctly, though the guard should know from his Matrix position whereabouts on the platform he should be when it stops. It also simplifies drawing the train forward if necessary.

When it comes to dispatch, it's more than a pair of eyes looking down the platform, in most locations there'll also be at least two platform staff dispatching, all positioned by the Matrix to each cover different parts of the train. Also, with the guard positioned at the rear he can watch the platform as the train departs, and would see the platform staff signalling if there was any problem, something the driver can't do

[Coryton]

The guard's already expected to get back to the rear of the existing 9 coach sets at most stations as it is, the Train Dispatch Matrix detailing positions for platform staff and guards requires, in most cases, guards dispatch from the rear (usually from rear 3)

 

 

But that's when the doors are about to be closed, right? He doesn't have to scramble to the back to get the doors open when the train arrives, which he would have to if the doors had to be opened from the rear cab.

 

And it makes a lot of common sense. The driver is the only one who knows that he has got the train in the platform, at the right place, and apart from that, no-one else needs to observe the platform for the doors to be released. 

 

IF there's a stop marker (which I'm sure there is anywhere an IET will call).

 

But I have seen a driver stop with the rear door off the platform and the guard having to buzz him to draw forwards (probably the only time I've ever heard that code used).

 

I suspect the driver forgot he was in a 150 rather than the usual 142/3.

[royaloak]

And it makes a lot of common sense. The driver is the only one who knows that he has got the train in the platform, at the right place,

 

Jim

Or where they think is the right place, otherwise they wouldnt have stopped there.

 

Its good to know that people think as highly of drivers ability to always stop in the right place as they think so lowly of Guards that they cannot check the train is correctly platformed before releasing the doors.

 

Signed an ex Guard who twice had to get the drivers to pull up the platform after they had stopped at the wrong marker and some of the coaches were not platformed, who is now a driver who very nearly stopped at the 8 car mark with an 12 coach train!

Edited December 11, 2017 by royaloak

[St. Simon]

IF there's a stop marker (which I'm sure there is anywhere an IET will call).

 

Hi,

 

Yep, GWR have gone to the trouble of (or are in the process of) installing new 5/10/S Stop Markers for the IEPs at all their stations:

 

 

One shown here at Paddington (I'm not sure why they are positioned sideways in the six foot rather than as per normal on platform, but they are as per normal at all the other stations)

 

There are new ones for the Class 387s, but I haven't a photo of those.

 

Of course, we are forgetting the Automatic Selective Door Operation Functionality of the train. This has automatically, through the use of GPS / Eurobalise Data / On-Train Database, selects the doors to be opened and on what side. Then the driver will be allowed to release the doors, with the guard closing them (the train will NOT open the doors itself). This will only be fitted at Stations where there is more than one platform in the direction of travel that has different platform lengths and at least one of them is too short. There is also the Manual version of this as well.

 

Simon

 

Simon

[Coryton]

Hi,

 

Yep, GWR have gone to the trouble of (or are in the process of) installing new 5/10/S Stop Markers for the IEPs at all their stations:

 

DSCF3667.JPG

 

One shown here at Paddington (I'm not sure why they are positioned sideways in the six foot rather than as per normal on platform, but they are as per normal at all the other stations)

 

There are new ones for the Class 387s, but I haven't a photo of those.

 

Of course, we are forgetting the Automatic Selective Door Operation Functionality of the train. This has automatically, through the use of GPS / Eurobalise Data / On-Train Database, selects the doors to be opened and on what side. Then the driver will be allowed to release the doors, with the guard closing them (the train will NOT open the doors itself). This will only be fitted at Stations where there is more than one platform in the direction of travel that has different platform lengths and at least one of them is too short. There is also the Manual version of this as well.

 

Simon

 

Simon

 

Does it prevent the doors from being opened if a 9 coach train is at a 5 coach marker with the back end hanging off the platform?

 

(If there is a platform anywhere IETs use that this could occur...perhaps not).