BlueRail Trains - Bluetooth Locomotive Control

[NorthHighlander]

....(just putting a little hand gingerly into the air to say that we are still here..... and have just got our first pre-orders in having announced our prices last week at Scalefour North.)

Of course it's up to anyone to put up a patent application if they want to and hope that it will get approved. We first announced publicly in 2009 and demonstrated proof of concept at Scalefour North in 2012 so we have bags of prior art to claim for every part of the application apart from the Bluetooth aspect. We decided early on not to put in a patent application because it would be very expensive not only to apply but to defend it when, inevitably, other systems would challenge it.

We welcome the competition that is now appearing in the model railway world as it provides confidence to the market. It's up to us to be the best and there is only one group of people who will determine that - our customers. We try to listen to what modellers tell us and where we can incorporate their recommendations. I hope you like our Pilot Series.

(..putting hand down again....)

Best regards

 

Tony Hagon

Acc+Ess Ltd

(Protocab)

Bowermadden, Scotland

[Andy Reichert]

I've glanced over the claims of the Blue Rail patent and I'm appalled it was even filed. It's clearly into the "we believe we invented everything ourselves just yesterday category" . There is of course multiple prior art for everything claimed, but digging it all up from obscure references and articles my be difficult and funding the enormous cost of then fighting Bachmann might be too much for the smaller guys.

 

I was running R&D at my part of Ericsson when we first circulated the original Bluetooth Spec.  I also had my large HO test layout in the basement at the same time, so all aspects of controlling a model railway using bluetooth and micros were continually discussed and were considered not just obvious, but an intended application.

 

Andy

[farren]

....(just putting a little hand gingerly into the air to say that we are still here..... and have just got our first pre-orders in having announced our prices last week at Scalefour North.)

Of course it's up to anyone to put up a patent application if they want to and hope that it will get approved. We first announced publicly in 2009 and demonstrated proof of concept at Scalefour North in 2012 so we have bags of prior art to claim for every part of the application apart from the Bluetooth aspect. We decided early on not to put in a patent application because it would be very expensive not only to apply but to defend it when, inevitably, other systems would challenge it.

We welcome the competition that is now appearing in the model railway world as it provides confidence to the market. It's up to us to be the best and there is only one group of people who will determine that - our customers. We try to listen to what modellers tell us and where we can incorporate their recommendations. I hope you like our Pilot Series.

(..putting hand down again....)

Best regards

 

Tony Hagon

Acc+Ess Ltd

(Protocab)

Bowermadden, Scotland

Do you have a website to look at? After typing in Acc+Ess or (protocab) all I get is other forums. But nothing official to have a good read though. Edited May 1, 2015 by farren

[davetheroad]

Try

 

http://www.protocab.com/products

 

I find the site does not work well if using microsoft explorer but chrome is fine.

Edited May 1, 2015 by davetheroad

[Oakydoke]

Sorry folks, but I thought this thread is about the Bachmann and BlueRail Trains Bluetooth base system and not about or for promoting Protocab?

[rgmichel]

Try

http://www.protocab.com/products

I took a glance at the site.  This looks like radio control of battery powered locomotives using 2.4GHz, similar to the US site discussed earlier in this topic.  The locomotive chips are shown, together with appropriate controllers.  In future an app will be available for a smart phone to communicate with the locomotive.   indeed, this is quite close to the ongoing discussion.  In this topic we have primarily been discussing a dcc system, power from the track, where the locomotive with its existing dcc decoder, including sound in all likelihood, has an added Bluetooth communications chip to interface a smart phone or smart pad.  The  key difference, I think, is that the ongoing discussion focuses on retention of dcc protocols, with communications handled by Bluetooth grafted onto the existing dcc control chip in the locomotive.

[rgmichel]

Sorry folks, but I thought this thread is about the Bachmann and BlueRail Trains Bluetooth base system and not about or for promoting Protocab?

While, Northhighlander has posted something that looks a bit like an ad, it seems relevant to the ongoing discussion, I think.  This thread, started by me, was stimulated by Bachmann's Bluetooth offering, but I intended it to be a discussion about the "implications" of  that offering.  This allows quite a wide ranging discussion, including subjects such as battery powered radio controlled locomotive systems that can be controlled with a smart phone.

[Colin_McLeod]

In that case perhaps the title of the thread should be amended.

[rgmichel]

In that case perhaps the title of the thread should be amended.

It seems self-evident to me, and certainly the progress of the discussion has been largely on the implications of Bluetooth control, so a change in title seems hardly necessary.  Indeed, I am not sure I can change the title.

Edited May 3, 2015 by rgmichel

[Andy Reichert]

It seems self-evident to me, and certainly the progress of the discussion has been largely on the implications of Bluetooth control, so a change in title seems hardly necessary.  Indeed, I am not sure I can change the title.

 

Editing post #1 I think allows for that.

[Ron Ron Ron]

There's no need to change the title as the other "system" that's been injected to this topic is a completely different type of product, requiring the purchase of lots of proprietary equipment. A total antithesis to the Bachmann and BlueRail Trains, which promises to do away with expensive dedicated control hardware .

 

 

p.s. Plus, that other product is a misguided and poor offering IMHO. 

Edited May 4, 2015 by Ron Ron Ron

[rgmichel]

There's no need to change the title as the other "system" that's been injected to this topic is a completely different type of product, requiring the purchase of lots of proprietary equipment. A total antithesis to the Bachmann and BlueRail Trains, which promises to do away with expensive dedicated control hardware .

I agree with this comment, in the sense that Bluetooth allows standardization of equipment.  I do not think it is constructive to belittle the "injected" (sic) topic, as its injection served to highlight the advantages of the bluetooth approach, which is a useful addition to the discussion.

[Andy Reichert]

I agree with this comment, in the sense that Bluetooth allows standardization of equipment.  I do not think it is constructive to belittle the "injected" (sic) topic, as its injection served to highlight the advantages of the bluetooth approach, which is a useful addition to the discussion.

 

At the moment, the Blue rail patent seems to want to cover all possible R/C trains using bluetooth, past, present and future.

[farren]

Hi had a email today so I thought I would put here for you to have a look.

 

Sorry for the pic grab but can't get on the pc at the moment.

Edited November 2, 2015 by farren

[rgmichel]

Hi had a email today so I thought I would put here for you to have a look.

 

Sorry for the pic grab but can't get on the pc at the moment.

Thanks for posting this.  Its very interesting, and shows the versatility that will be available with bluetooth train control.   I am still not clear that I can add this to an existing dcc sound locomotive and retain the sound features.  I need to do more homework I think.

[pheaton]

Advantages......

 

ease and choice of control...its a lot simpler to create an app to control trains than traditional DCC hardware...

 

its probably more reliable at packet distribution than DCC is currently as the signal is cleaner and less prone to dirty wheels and track and to a certain extent to interference and cross talk...

 

disadvantages...

 

its range is limited for 100% reliable operation

 

bluetooth can be interefered with by other equipment on the 2.4ghz band, including older microwave ovens and some dect cordless phones

 

bluetooths bandwidth is in my opinion limited for off board sound capability, and when using onboard sound capability at 00 and N guage you still face the same space inspired restrictions as to the amplifier and audio capability, so I see little or no advantage over DCC.

 

Bluetooth is insecure...and before anyone says so what...you wont be saying that if at a show some little spotty teenager decides to do a spot of "bluejacking"

 

$75 a board.....hope that's Australian dollars!

 

your limited by your Bluetooth transmitters (as regularly touted a smartphone) battery life, you could use a laptop or a pc based Bluetooth connector from the mains but I though the advantage was ease of control!

 

in my opinion Bachmann talking about offering Bluetooth as a new control principle is a little disturbing....only recently were we being spoon fed the DCC way and whilst it has not suffered the same fate as zero 1 none the less there will be a lot of people (myself included) with a considerable investment in DCC, I'm not sure if this is intended to replace and reading the post above it could indeed be intended to compliment it, nonetheless I believe (again my own opinion) that the model rail scene reacts poorly to drastic changes in technology particularly with the price increases seen in the mainstream rtr sectors, and announcing a new technology with the potential to make the existing technology obsolete alienates large portions of enthusiasts as they feel the need to keep up with modern times.

 

Im suspect of the100+foot range as it depends on the capabilities of your Bluetooth transmitter!

 

however lest we forget....this isn't really anything new....from what I can see its really dcc just using a different carrier...?

Edited November 2, 2015 by pheaton

[farren]

I don't see the rage at 100ft being a problem for most of us. And on the hand full of times I have read about layouts being that big the details of the control system normal tends to need a degree in electrics or similar to understand.

[rgmichel]

announcing a new technology with the potential to make the existing technology obsolete alienates large portions of enthusiasts as they feel the need to keep up with modern times.

however lest we forget....this isn't really anything new....from what I can see its really dcc just using a different carrier...?

If Bluetooth boards can be interfaced to our dcc sound equipped locomotives then we are ok.  I argued earlier that this is likely possible.  If it is not done by Bachmann, then you are right: "alienation" is the word.  However, enthusiasts have a habit of coming up with solutions.  This is not a complicated electronic problem, even if Bachmann do screw it up for some unstated commercial reasons.

[Philip Jackson]

There's a bluetooth DCC thing on kickstarter at the moment. seems fairly straight forwards:

 

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mtrains/bluetooth-hobby-train-control-module?ref=category

[Oakydoke]

The Bachmann EZ App is now available to download from the iOS App Store.

 

I just downloaded it to my iPad to have a look and a play.

It is really really basic and simple, with no complicated settings or set-up.

 

Big speed controller slider (throttle) on the right hand side of the screen.

Functions are limited to lights on/off (toggles), short horn, long horn and bell.

Other buttons are Start up/ shut down (toggles), Loco Stop, All Loco Stop and Fwd/Rev (toggles).

 

Swiping sideways brings up the throttle page for the next loco.

I think there's capacity for an almost unlimited number of locos.

A multi-loco screen can be selected, which will show a simplified throttle for 3 locos, but it can be swiped left and right for adjacent throttles for other locos.

 

In settings...

Acceleration and deceleration are both adjustable in 255 steps (slider).

Maximum speed setting is from 0 to 100 (slider).

Loco naming - up to 20 characters, i.e. numbers and/or letters (numeric addresses as in DCC, are not seen by the user).

A choice of 3 skins, or designs, of throttle layout and style. More skin options are promised.

Sounds can be switched on or off.

 

The app if free to download, so I basically just obtained the equivalent of a simple DCC system, for £0, $0, €0, zilch !!!!!

 

Seasoned DCC users will find this system to be very basic and missing a lot of the settings and function capability of any modest DCC system.

The promise is that additional features and functions will be added over time and being entirely software based, will only require regular software updates to enhance the system.

 

iOS users can try the app out now. Just search in the App Store for "Bachmann EZ App".

 

The user guide is here....

http://e-zapptraincontrol.com/user-guide/

 

A video is here....

http://e-zapptraincontrol.com/videos/

Edited November 2, 2015 by Oakydoke

[rgmichel]

There's a bluetooth DCC thing on kickstarter at the moment. seems fairly straight forwards:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mtrains/bluetooth-hobby-train-control-module?ref=category

I looked at this -  thanks for making us aware of it.  Apparently, their approach is to put a dcc module onto the bluetooth board.  This might not be activated in the first versions, but may be implemented by software upgrade later.  There is no mention of the ability to upgrade existing dcc sound locos.

[switcher 1]

(Just come here from another thread.)

 

Does this 2-wire system allow for reverse loops & wye junctions without any extra faffing about?

[rgmichel]

(Just come here from another thread.)

Does this 2-wire system allow for reverse loops & wye junctions without any extra faffing about?

I am not sure what you mean by 2-wire, but assuming power comes from the rails, then nothing changes much in the wiring relative to a regular dcc layout.  Some like the idea of on-board battery power, which changes everything, as power does not then come from the rails.  Batteries aside, the only thing that  bluetooth allows is wireless control of the locomotive using the bluetooth communication protocol with controllers like iPhones and iPads, and computers.  This is instead of dcc control using existing  dcc controllers and protocols that send the control signals through the tracks.

Edited November 3, 2015 by rgmichel

[Junctionmad]

I just don't see the point of Bluetooth control, if you still must retain traction power via the rails.

 

Bluetooth control is a solution looking for a problem , in my view. Nor would I pick Bluetooth as a rf transport. Way over complex for what's needed.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Junctionmad

[rgmichel]

I just don't see the point of Bluetooth control, if you still must retain traction power via the rails.

Bluetooth control is a solution looking for a problem , in my view. Nor would I pick Bluetooth as a rf transport. Way over complex for what's needed.

I beg to disagree in the friendliest way possible.  Bluetooth's big advantage is that it could be more universal than our existing technologies, while the programming of the controllers, iPhones. iPads, etc., to do different things is more open to software programmers.  I think this is a significant advantage.  The main problem is that the present developers of Bluetooth technology, while paying some lip service to our existing stock of expensive dcc protocols, are really trying to supplant dcc altogether. They do not really intend to make their Bluetooth boards compatible with our dcc sound locos.   I am reading between the lines here, but it is logical that the Bluetooth train people really don't care about dcc sound locos because they do not need dcc technology for Bluetooth train control to work.  Hence, while Bluetooth has huge potential its main disadvantage is a likely rapid obsolescence of dcc hardware, including all our dcc sound locos.  So, a whole new generation of iPhone equipped railway modellers will take up Bluetooth control, and the existing generation using dcc will have to soldier on with the more complicated and inflexible dcc technology just because of its investment in that technology.   I suspect that is what is going to happen.  The Bluetooth community owes the dcc community no favors, so its unlikely that Bluetooth will be stitched into our dcc sound locomotives.

 

I should add that the Bluetooth people expect that the present manufacturers of dcc sound boards will add Bluetooth to "upgrade" their dcc  technology (likely?? technically easy?? I don't really think so).  Certainly the Bluetooth people will not do it.  So, it comes down to the fact that it will likely be possible to upgrade all your dcc ready and analog locos fairly easily to Bluetooth and Bluetooth sound, but you would likely be faced with a decision to jettison the electronics in your dcc sound locos in favor of the new technology. I think this is a bit grim for our investment in dcc sound locos, not to mention the awful TTS sound locos.  Hold on to you hats.  One ray of hope is that the Bluetooth people seem to be toying with the idea of a dcc chip onboard, which might help a bit in a mixed system, but who wants a mixed system?

Edited November 3, 2015 by rgmichel