Midland Railway Company

[lezz01]

26 minutes ago, Tricky said:

Would anyone have access to a GA drawing of the half cab as depicted in the Slaters model? 

There's a drawing in Midland Locomotives Vol. 3 by Essery and Jenkinson on page 86. It's not a GA but unless you really need a GA it's good enough to work from.

Regards Lez. 

[lezz01]

I have to say that I love the picture on the front of the latest newsletter. Midland Railway meets War of the Worlds. It's one of my favourite Science Fiction books. It's never really had the justice it deserves as a film or on the TV although Jeff Wanes musical version was outstanding they always have to mess with it and never tell the story as Wells wrote it which is a real shame as it needs no embellishment.

Regards Lez.  

Edited December 30, 2023 by lezz01

[Nick Lawson]

Happy New Year everyone!

 

Hopefully it isn't too early to ask wagon numbering questions:

 

 

I have a couple of Cambrian D664 kits, for which I have acquired transfers from Old Time Workshop. These include the two known D664 numbers ( plus two for D663 & a fifth for a grainstore wagon) listed by Bob Essery in Midland Wagons vol 1.

 

Question 1

Merde alors, I have scrunched the transfer for "26223". However, the sheet also includes a sixth number, not in the above volume, "70323". Crossing my fingers - does anyone know what sort of wagon that belonged to?

 

Question 2

Am I right that the large "X" is only applicable to the vacuum fitted wagons?

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, Nick Lawson said:

Happy New Year everyone!

 

Hopefully it isn't too early to ask wagon numbering questions:

 

 

I have a couple of Cambrian D664 kits, for which I have acquired transfers from Old Time Workshop. These include the two known D664 numbers ( plus two for D663 & a fifth for a grainstore wagon) listed by Bob Essery in Midland Wagons vol 1.

 

Question 1

Merde alors, I have scrunched the transfer for "26223". However, the sheet also includes a sixth number, not in the above volume, "70323". Crossing my fingers - does anyone know what sort of wagon that belonged to?

 

Question 2

Am I right that the large "X" is only applicable to the vacuum fitted wagons?

 

My little list includes the following numbers, from Midland Wagons Vol. 1 p. 143 except where noted:

D664: 25233 (is that a transcription error on my part?), 35036, 88609, 114298 (MRSC 88-G4/16-01, a photo I have not yet seen)

D633: 70323 (Midland Wagons Vol. 2 Addendum), 89451, 112423.

 

The number 114298 would have originally belonged to a covered goods wagon of lot 309 or 311, built 1892/3, so if one supposes one lot of D633 were built as renewals of those, one could safely choose other numbers in the 1142xx - 1143xx range.

 

X denoted vacuum fitted which would entail clasp brakes. 

Edited January 1 by Compound2632

[Grahams]

4 hours ago, Nick Lawson said:

...

These include the two known D664 numbers ( plus two for D663 & a fifth for a grainstore wagon) listed by Bob Essery in Midland Wagons vol 1.

Happy New Year to you too. 

I believe you mean D633. 

 

D663 is a much searched-for and, so far, elusive diagram. 

[Grahams]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

... if one supposes one lot of D663 were built as renewals of those, one could safely choose other numbers in the 1142xx - 1143xx range.

Stephen you have fallen into a rather unfortunate little hole dug by Nick 🤣

[Compound2632]

49 minutes ago, Grahams said:

Stephen you have fallen into a rather unfortunate little hole dug by Nick 🤣

 

Doh. Typo, corrected in post. I do know the difference between D633 and D663; one diagram exists and not the other. (Here I speak of sketches printed in the diagram book, not actual wagons.)

 

One tentative suggestion, for which I have no evidence, is that D663 was the number given to an attempt at a 10-ton open design that was superseded by D663A. There are a few references in the Traffic and C&W Committee minutes around 1911-13 to diagrams of proposed wagons, with diagram numbers which bear no relation to known diagrams in the printed diagram book. 

[Grahams]

48 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Doh. Typo, corrected in post. I do know the difference between D633 and D663; one diagram exists and not the other. (Here I speak of sketches printed in the diagram book, not actual wagons.)

 

One tentative suggestion, for which I have no evidence, is that D663 was the number given to an attempt at a 10-ton open design that was superseded by D663A. There are a few references in the Traffic and C&W Committee minutes around 1911-13 to diagrams of proposed wagons, with diagram numbers which bear no relation to known diagrams in the printed diagram book. 

Yes indeed I have no doubt you know the difference. 

My initial thoughts on the 'A' suffix were the same - that there was some 'level change' as we call it in the automotive industry. A significant change not requiring a new drawing (or diagram in this case). The D336 and A versions were the obvious example to me, where there was an upgrade to the earlier. 

It seems that a change to the brakework did not justify a change to the Diagram number, even to a suffix. I have a feeling from reading and looking at a lot of Midland drawings that the control of the changes was not as rigorous as it needs to be in a modern engineering environment. Probably the proximity of the DO and Works allowed more flexibility; also, engineering change control was in its infancy. 

Are there any diagrams with a 'B' or subsequent suffix? I don't remember seeing any. 

[Compound2632]

54 minutes ago, Grahams said:

I have a feeling from reading and looking at a lot of Midland drawings that the control of the changes was not as rigorous as it needs to be in a modern engineering environment.

 

Yes, the idea of version control wasn't very strong. The drawings seem to me to have always been working documents, traced, copied, annotated - so that the version in use in 1902 might be several steps removed from the original of 1882, though it carries the same number.

 

57 minutes ago, Grahams said:

Are there any diagrams with a 'B' or subsequent suffix? I don't remember seeing any. 

 

No, as far as I'm aware, not. Usually the A suffix is a higher-capacity version of the type: long lowsided wagons D336 and D336A, 8 and 10 ton capacity respectively; short rail wagons D335 and D335A, 12 and 15 ton capacity. But compare traction wagons: D333, 10 ton capacity; D730, 12 tons, but otherwise essentially the same design. Why not D333A? It's not a date thing - the A higher-capacity versions of all three types date from 1909/10. To quote Unikitty, "No consistency!"

 

See my reply to Michael Holland's Comment in MRS Journal No. 83 (Winter 2023).

[Citadel]

Mrs C showed me a Facebook post about John Gaunt, the Midland Railway rat catcher.  Some photos of him roughly two thirds of the way down the webpage linked (together with a good selection of rascally rat wrangling):

 

https://themongrolhoard.com/index.php/historical-photos/

 

Is he a well known Midland Railway celebrity?  See he died at the age of seventy three in 1924 so may have been plying his trade in late Victorian times - can feel a cameo appearance on Carlisle Citadel, quite fancy him sitting on a bench waiting for a train with a couple of foxes in a sack.  To be honest though would imagine the Midland responsibility for pest control didn't really reach as far as Carlisle. 

[Compound2632]

 

Caption reads: "Also known as John Wheeldon he worked as a rat catcher for Midland Railway. He was also a prizewinning member of Ambergate Cottage Garden Society. He lived at Sawmills. He is the only person known to have successfully trained foxes to 'rat' for economic use & claimed they were better than terriers because they could hold 5 rats in their mouths at once. The ratcatcher has to be quick, becuase unlike a teriier, foxes did not kill the rats outright. The two best foxes were killed accidentally by gamekeepers. Such was his national fame that he was described in a book as a 'great sportsman & great Englishman!'. He died, aged 73, at the home of a friend in Belper in Nov. 1924. He was buried in Crich churchyard"

[Embedded link to Picture the Past ref. DCAV001501.]

 

One wonders how many men the Midland, or the railways in general, had, employed in this role. No entry in the MRSC online catalogue!

[lezz01]

13 minutes ago, Citadel said:

Mrs C showed me a Facebook post about John Gaunt, the Midland Railway rat catcher.  Some photos of him roughly two thirds of the way down the webpage linked (together with a good selection of rascally rat wrangling):

 

https://themongrolhoard.com/index.php/historical-photos/

 

Is he a well known Midland Railway celebrity?  See he died at the age of seventy three in 1924 so may have been plying his trade in late Victorian times - can feel a cameo appearance on Carlisle Citadel, quite fancy him sitting on a bench waiting for a train with a couple of foxes in a sack.  To be honest though would imagine the Midland responsibility for pest control didn't really reach as far as Carlisle. 

We could do with him around here right now. My cat has brought in 3 of the little beggars over the last 12 months I've become quite adept at catching them without getting bitten over the last few years, although to start with I had a couple of trips to A&E. They do say you're never more than a yard away from a rat in London. I live quite close to the North London line so we see lot's of them here. I once saw one walking down the middle of my road that was bigger than a Jack Russel.

Regards Lez. 

[Nick Lawson]

 

 

 

On 01/01/2024 at 13:09, Compound2632 said:

D633: 70323 (Midland Wagons Vol. 2 Addendum)

Ah I didn't think of looking there. Thanks Stephen. Anyway I can't use that number for my second D664.

 

On 01/01/2024 at 13:09, Compound2632 said:

25233 (is that a transcription error on my part?)

Yes that appears to be the case.

 

On 01/01/2024 at 16:45, Grahams said:

I believe you mean D633. 

Yes, sorry for muddying the waters.

[DenysW]

A question and a "I wish I'd known that".

 

The question is to ask what did the Midland (and the Great Northern and the Great Eastern, but not LNWR, LYR, GCR) changed in 1902 that saw them change the classification of about half of their 'Merchandise" into "Minerals"? This only affected the reports of tons carried, not income. As a result their Merchandise trade appears to soar in value/ton, falsely.

 

The lessening of ignorance was that Hudson nearly drove the Midland into insolvency by buying other railways at fixed-interest that did not reflect their contribution to receipts. I just knew his honesty was highly questionable, not that his lust to spread his control nearly broke the Midland. In the worst half-year (1850 Jan-Jun) there was also a one-off £50,000 drop in passenger receipts with no corresponding drop in expenditure, and the Midland came within £60,000 of insolvency. The Midland grew its way out of these problems, but swept them under the carpet as well - changing the £90,000/year it paid to the Leeds & Bradford from line rental to guaranteed shares, then doing a fiddle where they only appeared to be paying 5%/year not the true 10%/year.

 

In these numbers the operating margin is the total receipts minus the operating expenditure including taxes.  The gradual decline 1845-1912 was industry-wide. The profit margin is the receipts minus operating, but also minus line rentals, fixed interest shares and debt servicing. It's what funded dividends, so you can see why the shareholders were not happy in 1850.

 

[Holmesfeldian]

Hattons has announced the company is being wound up! Best get those orders in quick….

 

Hattons Originals

Batch 2 Genesis coaches WILL be produced and released as announced.

GCR French grey & brown

L&Y brown & umber

Midland Railway crimson lake

LSWR salmon & brown

BR crimson

NCB blue

CIE dark green

CIE light green

CIE black & tan

GER Stratford brown

 

 

 

Batch 3 Genesis coaches will NOT be produced

[Crimson Rambler]

@Tricky I have an electronic copy of GA 91-3628 Class N 0-6-0T which is the one you want as Slater's based its kit on the batch built by the Vulcan Foundry. I will e-mail it to you but please do be aware it contains some errors/departures.

An example of the former is the top link of the couplings will not clear the hook due to draughtsman copying 78-1055 (the drawing all of the Derby-built earlier 0-6-0T were built to) without thinking! An example of a departure is the cab step plate not being far enough behind the outside frame nor is the platform cut away at the cab entrance. I think this has been discussed in an earlier post.

 

Crimson Rambler

 

[DenysW]

On 08/01/2024 at 19:37, Holmesfeldian said:

Hattons Originals

Batch 2 Genesis coaches WILL be produced and released as announced.

GCR French grey & brown

L&Y brown & umber

Midland Railway crimson lake

All listed, but as 'sold out on pre-order'.

[Grahams]

For those who are on Facebook, there is a new Facebook group "Midland Railway - The Best Way"

https://www.facebook.com/groups/midlandrailway

It's a private group so please ask to join and mention you have seen this post in your answers to the questions.

The idea of the group is to attract those on Facebook who have an interest in the Midland and inspire them to engage in discussion about the railway.

We are keen to attract anyone with an interest in any aspect of the Midland.

Anything Midland related is welcome. Historic or modern photos of stations, infrastructure, engines, carriages, wagons, sidings, documents, family members who worked on the Midland, models of the Midland, garden railways, miniature railways, photos of infrastructure still existing, preserved railways, engines and rolling stock. Anything Midland!

Active posters will be especially welcome as we will need varied content, discussions, questions and answers.

[Jol Wilkinson]

48 minutes ago, Grahams said:

For those who are on Facebook, there is a new Facebook group "Midland Railway - The Best Way"

https://www.facebook.com/groups/midlandrailway

It's a private group so please ask to join and mention you have seen this post in your answers to the questions.

The idea of the group is to attract those on Facebook who have an interest in the Midland and inspire them to engage in discussion about the railway.

We are keen to attract anyone with an interest in any aspect of the Midland.

Anything Midland related is welcome. Historic or modern photos of stations, infrastructure, engines, carriages, wagons, sidings, documents, family members who worked on the Midland, models of the Midland, garden railways, miniature railways, photos of infrastructure still existing, preserved railways, engines and rolling stock. Anything Midland!

Active posters will be especially welcome as we will need varied content, discussions, questions and answers.

The LNWR Society has a very active Facebook group. The Forum is somewhat less active, which is regrettable as as forums have "index pages" are more readily searchable for the material I am interested in. For me, forums beat Facebook any time.

[Grahams]

1 hour ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

The LNWR Society has a very active Facebook group. The Forum is somewhat less active, which is regrettable as as forums have "index pages" are more readily searchable for the material I am interested in. For me, forums beat Facebook any time.

Yes, Facebook can be frustrating and hard work. If it's not for you, that's understandable. 

I am in a few Facebook groups which are very knowledgeable and helpful. Most are not worth reading. Our target is to make such a knowledgeable and helpful community on Facebook for the Midland Railway. 

We have to recognise that there are people on Facebook who will never use a forum. The posts on the LNWR Facebook group are a very good example of the broader appeal of a Facebook group. The demographic of the active Facebook user group is different from that of a Society or a Club and if we are there with an interesting and helpful Midland group, we can appeal to that wider demographic. 

[lezz01]

I don't use Facebook I have had a very bad experience with it, courtesy of my step daughter, so I have never used it again. I don't get on with my children, they all inhabit FB, they are all a product of the lies told by their mother who is a foul demon from the seventh circle of hell. I always say that the Devil doesn't frighten me because I was married to his bitch sister and don't get me started about her mother, my mum and dad used to call her Ma Baker! I really wish I had listened to them about marrying her but hey you live and learn don't you. I certainly did.

I keep my online activity to a minimum only using this forum, the EM gauge forum and occasionally a astronomy forum and a koi forum although I tend towards YouTube rather than other places as there are some very good videos regarding model making, engineering, koi and astronomy. The content of videos on YT is better and I don't need to have a personal page to find what I want, there is also great music on YT. 

Regards Lez.   

Edited January 17 by lezz01

[Compound2632]

On 02/01/2024 at 18:23, Compound2632 said:

One wonders how many men the Midland, or the railways in general, had, employed in this role. No entry in the MRSC online catalogue!

 

@Citadel, I didn't follow this post up but there was some discussion on the MRS IO Group about John Gaunt; he has an entry not in the catalogue but in the staff database. The MRSC does have some material on him - newspaper cuttings and photographs. He wasn't a Midland Railway employee but a contractor - his services were called upon as required - as no doubt was the case for pest control up and down the system. 

[DenysW]

This may have been a personal opinion presented as fact, but E.M Gass (J. Locomotive Engineers 1927, article 208) asserts that you can use and adhesion factor of 3.5 for 3-cylinder locomotives connected to the crank at 120-degrees. He specifically mentions the Midland Compound as benefitting from this. At the time he was with the LMS at Horwich, so he's likely to have known.

 

I downloaded the article from the L&Y website.

[bill-lobb]

59 minutes ago, DenysW said:

This may have been a personal opinion presented as fact, but E.M Gass (J. Locomotive Engineers 1927, article 208) asserts that you can use and adhesion factor of 3.5 for 3-cylinder locomotives connected to the crank at 120-degrees. He specifically mentions the Midland Compound as benefitting from this. At the time he was with the LMS at Horwich, so he's likely to have known.

 

I downloaded the article from the L&Y website.

 

Problem there is that as far as I am aware the Compounds cranks were not at 120 degrees. The LP cylinders were 90 deg to each other and the HP at 135 deg to each of them. One was fitted at 120 experimentally. Perhaps he was referring to that one?

[DenysW]

The exact wording, with some spelling corruption introduced, presumably, during conversion into a pdf.:

 

"Owing to the better halnncing of four cylinders and the more uniform turning effort of the three-cylinder engine c.omparet1 wit11 thc two-cylinder engine, the rail pressure is more uniform, and consequently a lower factor of adhesion can be employed. This is an important point as regards the load allowed on the rails, i.e., 20 tons per axle. In the case of the trio-cylinder ciigine, which must have at least ;i factor of adhesion of 4, and assurning it to be six-coupled, the tractive effort is limited to 33,6001bs. In the case of the three or four-cylinder six-coupled engine, the tractive effort can be raised to 38,4mIbs., as the adhesive weight is sufficient when the weight on the drivers is three and ;I half times the tractive effort."

 

There follows a table of LMS 3- and4-cylinder locomotives, of which the Compounds  are comfortably the most numerous.

Edited January 21 by DenysW