Midland Railway Company

[Compound2632]

An update from Dave Harris, Midland Railway Study Centre Coordinator, on progress with the Museum of Making in the Silk Mill, Derby, following the Storm Babet flooding in October:

 

Quote

it is evident that we will not be able to receive visitors to the MRSC until at least the New Year.

 

However, please keep in mind that there is an ever growing collection of resources on our web site, and we are always open via email. You’ll appreciate that without access to the physical collection, any enquiries may have to go onto the To Do List, but don’t let that stop you asking! To those of you whose have already done so and are awaiting a proper response from me, your patience is greatly appreciated. I will be in touch as soon as I have something for you.

 

See you in the New Year!

 

The accompanying statement from Alex Rock of Derby Museums indicates that steady progress is being made but there are H&S issues that are being addressed before the museum can fully reopen - repair of fire doors and lifts, and making damaged display panels safe. However, they are now able to host private hires and internal events using the ground floor space.

[Compound2632]

The Quirky Poll:

includes a Midland locomotive - no, not the Paget locomotive, thank goodness, but the Schenectady mogul. On the whole, I'd prefer a Baldwin mogul (cue @Dave Hunt) but, heck, the choices are supposed to be quirky.

 

Get voting!

[RedTrain]

So I've just recently acquired (for a fantastic bargain) a couple of MR locomotive kits which I'm aware have something of a reputation... the old Ratio plastic 2-4-0 and 4-4-0. While the 2-4-0 is the original version with the horrid mazak wheels and cheap motor, the 4-4-0 is thankfully the later release with a brass chassis by Perseverance. Of course, this means that it does not come with the wheels/mechanism. Looking at the accompanying weight diagram for the 1312 class (I believe that's what the Ratio 4-4-0 represents?) in Essery v.2, the dimensions of the bogie wheels are hard to make out; it looks like 3' 3 1/2" dia. to me, but would appreciate confirmation. I know the drivers are 6' 6" on both kits (correct for the 4-4-0, incorrect for the 2-4-0, but the kits are designed the same way so 2 and a half inches will just have to be excused!). Currently I'm looking at potentially using Scalelink wheels, but wonder if Romford/Markits or Gibson have more accurate ones?

 

In regards to the 2-4-0, I do know that the Gibson catalog lists milled frames that fit the kit. Last I heard, they were having some issues with supplying frames; does anyone know if those have been resolved?

 

An additional point of interest is the tender wheels; the kit ones are 3' 6" whereas the prototype are 4' 3"... that's a whole 9 inches missing. The tender body itself doesn't seem too bad (the 4-4-0 kit comes with a nice replacement etch for the coal rails) and could probably be used with some detail improvements if the chassis were amended. Maybe the internal chassis unit by Comet would be a good fit?

 

I know some have opted to stick a drive unit in the tender, pack the loco body with weight, and dwell no more on the issue, but I would like to avoid that if possible; to me it seems like the cheap and easy way out. Any tried and true gearbox/motor/weight combinations?

 

Will certainly appreciate any guidance. I don't expect to make masterpieces out of these things, but if I can achieve a well-running result I'll be more than satisfied. Easier than a London Road kit at my skill level, at least!

[lezz01]

Gibson do wheels to suit both locos they also do tender frames plus wheels for same. I would urge you to think about having the motor in the tender and driving through a High Level Tenderiser and Roadrunner compact via a UJ. I've built several of the 2-4-0s and they need all the help they can get. If you use single beam compensation you need to have the pivot point offset towards the leading driver and hang the tender on the back of the loco with a fixed rear axle on the tender and the other two either free or slightly sprung and get as much weight into the tender as you can. That way you can get as much weight as possible onto the two driving axles. Cut off all of the boiler fittings and replace them with either brass or white metal, pack as much lead as you can into the chassis of the loco as well. Trust me every gram helps and you will need every gram of weight you can magic into it. I haven't built the 4-4-0 yet but given how the 2-4-0s worked I should think that it won't be any better. Don't get me wrong I love these Ratio Kits, the 2-4-0 is very versatile and can be made into several classes including the Kirtley 156 and 800 class without too much trouble but getting them to pull any more than 3 coaches takes cunning and as much weight as you can pack into them. I currently have two 2-4-0s and one

4-4-0 in stock to build and I'm hoping to build one as an 800 class Kirtley.

Regards Lez.      

[DenysW]

On a re-read of Hamilton Ellis's 'The Midland Railway' on p129 (in the 1963 Ian Allan version) he says 

 

"A prominent feature of the Deeley express engines, and of the supposed rebuilds just mentioned, was the provision of large flat shields, set transversely on the fronts of the leading bogies. These were a consequence of the widespread double-heading and of the newly-introduced water troughs... to protect the bogie bearings of the second engine ... gave the engine a somewhat grotesque apperance when viewed from the front ... "

 

Is this true? I've just had a leaf through Midland Locomotives Vol 2 and couldn't see anything corresponding to that description, but my visualisation skills are poor.

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, DenysW said:

On a re-read of Hamilton Ellis's 'The Midland Railway' on p129 (in the 1963 Ian Allan version) he says 

 

"A prominent feature of the Deeley express engines, and of the supposed rebuilds just mentioned, was the provision of large flat shields, set transversely on the fronts of the leading bogies. These were a consequence of the widespread double-heading and of the newly-introduced water troughs... to protect the bogie bearings of the second engine ... gave the engine a somewhat grotesque apperance when viewed from the front ... "

 

Is this true? I've just had a leaf through Midland Locomotives Vol 2 and couldn't see anything corresponding to that description, but my visualisation skills are poor.

 

Splash plates were a very late Deeley or post-Deeley thing; Summerson gives 1909 as the date they started being fitted. The Midland was only just starting to install water troughs during Deeley's tenure. Therefore they don't appear in official portraits of engines as built, such as appear in Essery & Jenkinson, but are common in later photos of engines on the road. They were fitted to Compounds, 999s, Belpaires, and 483s, though for the selection below I couldn't find a photo of a 999 with them.

 

Perforce, all these photos show single-headed trains!

 

Random examples of Compounds:

 

 

 

 

 

a Belpaire 483 - misread the caption; train engine is a Belpaire:

 

 

and 483s:

 

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnails of MRSC 61113, 61172, 61178, 61443, 60192, 61129, and 61138 respectively.]

Edited December 22, 2023 by Compound2632

[Bandicoot]

To be frank, I didn’t have the patience (or life expectancy!) to read all 77 pages of what I am sure is a very interesting and informative thread.

As I saw back on page one, there are people like me, with an interest in shortish freight trains.
I ‘spoke’ with someone at Rapido Trains recently who agreed with me that the Class 700 Kirtley outside - frame loco would make an interesting and worth model. He said he would refer it on to the high-ups who make the decisions.

Perhaps anyone else interested in this long-service locomotive which covered a vast range of tasks and bore many liveries might put in their own plea for this to be added to their range.

Thanks in advance and in anticipation.

[Bandicoot]

*** worthwhile ***

[Compound2632]

The Museum of Making will reopen to the public, following repairs to the storm Babet flooding damage, on 26 January. The Midland Railway Study Centre will be able to take bookings for visitors from that date. Dave Harris, the Study Centre Coordinator, says the volunteer group will be able to get to work in the Study Centre from the second week in January to deal with the backlog of enquiries that could not be answered from the digital archive, and resume the never-ending task of cataloguing, scanning, and preservation work. 

 

https://derbymuseums.org/.

 

In other news, I hear that members are starting to receive the winter mailing, including the Newsletter, Journal, and Modelling the Midland. Such is the state of Reading's post, I'll expect mine in February.

[kevinlms]

25 minutes ago, Bandicoot said:

*** worthwhile ***

Look at the bottom of your own posts and you can click on the 'edit' function. You will get prompted to give a reason for the edit. I don't bother if I edit within minutes, but do if later.

[Jol Wilkinson]

2 hours ago, Bandicoot said:

To be frank, I didn’t have the patience (or life expectancy!) to read all 77 pages of what I am sure is a very interesting and informative thread.

As I saw back on page one, there are people like me, with an interest in shortish freight trains.
I ‘spoke’ with someone at Rapido Trains recently who agreed with me that the Class 700 Kirtley outside - frame loco would make an interesting and worth model. He said he would refer it on to the high-ups who make the decisions.

Perhaps anyone else interested in this long-service locomotive which covered a vast range of tasks and bore many liveries might put in their own plea for this to be added to their range.

Thanks in advance and in anticipation.

 

One RMweb member has produced an etched for the 700 Class, so you could build your own rather than waiting for he RTR manufacturers to produce one. With so many pre-group prototypes to choose from, there is no guarantee that it would ever be produced RTR.

 

 

[DenysW]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

are common in later photos of engines on the road. They were fitted to Compounds, 999s, Belpaires, and 483s

Odd, yes. Grotesque, hardly. Did that pioneer of troughs, the LNWR, do the same?

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, DenysW said:

Odd, yes. Grotesque, hardly.

 

For myself, I've long thought they look quite dashing.

 

17 minutes ago, DenysW said:

Did that pioneer of troughs, the LNWR, do the same?

 

Not so far as I'm aware. Maybe through long familiarity, the crews of pilot engines were more expert at not over-filling the tender tank. Also, maybe, the leading wheels being in radial axles or trucks rather than bogies, the axleboxes were better shielded by the frames?

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

In other news, I hear that members are starting to receive the winter mailing, including the Newsletter, Journal, and Modelling the Midland. Such is the state of Reading's post, I'll expect mine in February.

 

I have to apologise for libelling Royal Mail - arrived this afternoon.

[Bandicoot]

6 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

One RMweb member has produced an etched for the 700 Class, so you could build your own rather than waiting for he RTR manufacturers to produce one. With so many pre-group prototypes to choose from, there is no guarantee that it would ever be produced RTR.

 

 

Thank you, Jol.

i have never constructed a metal kit, nor have i any experience of soldering, brazing or welding.

I wouldn’t want to waste the money on an attempt.

The reason I made the plea is that a representative from a relatively small, relatively new loco manufacturer expressed interest in my suggestion and if people don’t ask, they don’t get. (Except endless boring variations on Great Western locos, and heaven alone knows, we have more than enough of those).

 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Bandicoot said:

(Except endless boring variations on Great Western locos, and heaven alone knows, we have more than enough of those).

 

Unfortunately at present it seems to be endless variations on the same Great Western loco.

 

I agree that a RTR Kirtley 0-6-0 would be wonderful. One theory is that the manufacturers prefer prototypes of which there is a preserved example - on several grounds it makes commercial sense - so I'd perhaps put my money on a 156 Class 2-4-0. But with their 1532 Class 0-4-4T, Bachmann demonstrated that it ain't necessarily so where there is good published information - in that case F. James, D. Hunt and R.J. Essery, Midland Engines No. 1 ‘1833’ and ‘2228’ Class bogie passenger tanks (Wild Swan, 1999). But in the same series there is also D. Hunt, R.J. Essery  and F. James, Midland Engines No. 4 The ‘700’ Class double-frame goods engines (Wild Swan, 2002)...

 

I wonder how far back any manufacturer would be prepared to tool for...

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 81882.]

 

I know that's a 480 Class engine not a 700 Class engine; I couldn't find a suitable photo of one of the latter in early condition.

[lezz01]

I have to say that I would take a 156 class over a 700 class. There are 2 options for a 700, three if you include the Falcon Brass one but there's only a Falcon Brass version of the 156, if you can find one and it ain't that good. I'm talking about 4mm scale of course. I keep trying to talk Dave into doing the 156 but so far I'm getting tumble weeds. 

Regards Lez. 

[Bandicoot]

Thanks, guys.

I guess there are almost as many prototypes as there are railway modellers.

I live in hope that an r-t-r version will be forthcoming. Or that I win the lottery.

[brumtb]

23 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I have to apologise for libelling Royal Mail - arrived this afternoon.

Mine has arrived as well.  Thank you Stephen for Modelling the Midland,  lots of inspiration.

Tony

[mikeallerton]

Mine also arrived today, although sadly the Journal was missing the middle 8 pages with I gather most of Stephen's presumably excellent article. I have reported this to the relevant authorities so hope to see a full copy in due course.

 

Dave Basford has produced an etched kit for the 700 class, which apparently I will be officially receiving on Monday, following the visit of number 1 offspring to wrap it yesterday. It is occasionally available on a well known online auction site.

Edited December 23, 2023 by mikeallerton
additional information

[lezz01]

Dave has done a list of all his kits as a PDF with prices on one of his build threads.

Regards Lez.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, mikeallerton said:

Mine also arrived today, although sadly the Journal was missing the middle 8 pages with I gather most of Stephen's presumably excellent article. I have reported this to the relevant authorities so hope to see a full copy in due course.

 

Very sorry to hear this. Yours is the first report of a problem, which of course we will follow up with the printers as soon as we can.

[Dave Hunt]

Hi All. I haven't been looking at RMWeb for a couple of weeks now due to various factors that I won't bore you with but once Christmas is out of the way I hope to be back to normal and contributing. I n the meantime happy Christmas and a peaceful and prosperous new year to all on this thread.

 

Dave

[Tricky]

Would anyone have access to a GA drawing of the half cab as depicted in the Slaters model? 

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Tricky said:

Would anyone have access to a GA drawing of the half cab as depicted in the Slaters model? 

 

Midland Record No. 11 has an article reproducing original drawings for the 1121 class 0-6-0Ts; whether that is close enough in the cab to the 1377s I couldn't say.