rue_d_etropal Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Having just spent the weekend exhibiting at the Preston exhibition, I think there is still a lot of support for the hobby. Have to say I think it was one of the best Preston have put on, and that as not because I was there. Friends told me it was a good show, a good mixture of different scales, sizes and many previously unseen layouts in NW. It was very busy on the Saturday, and was told that people were still queuing to come in up to 11.30. Exhibition opened at 10. Interesting to observe the mix of people visiting. Surprisingly small percentage with small children, but quite a few in age range 20-40 I would say. That is encouraging. Really need a term for crossing over between hobbies. Could call it 'cross-dressing' but that would get the wrong publicity. Anyway when I exhibited at RAMMA in France, the exhibition was not just model railways, with different halls for different hobbies, all with a connection to modelling, there were plenty of visitors. I think the model railways were the most popular, and they are hoping to increase space available this year. I think that it would have been an idea to have mixed up some of the rooms, as it would have then been easier to compare and learn from what other modelling/wargaming hobbies are doing. I can understand why some might be resistant to including non railway models in a railway exhibition, but my WW1 layout does bridge that gap as do the other military railway models and layouts out there. In fact I think that cross over actually attracts more interest than some other more traditional model railways. As a hobby we actually communicate pretty well , and out networks both nationally and internationally are possibly better than other creative activities. Exhibitions are well promoted . Finding out about non railway modelling events is far more difficult, yet we do seem to be having fewer people prepared to step forward. Bringing in other hobbies would bring in more people prepared to help, and then everyone would benefit. New technology will help. DCC has certainly been popular, but having no got involved in 3D printing, I think it is new ideas like this that will attract new people into the hobby. There is still resistance from some, but while some are pushing the r2r manufactures to produce better(and more expensive) models which they are now struggling to actually supply, then there is a gap opening which can combine traditional scratchbuilding/kit modification and modern 'cool' technology. What is important is that 3D printing is in the news so embracing it will draw some of that publicity our way. I have a vested interest in its success, for the items I have designed, but I promise when it really takes off I will be promoting the hobby as something new, cool and trying to cast the 'playing with toy trains' image to the bin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnarcher Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 . Anyway when I exhibited at RAMMA in France, the exhibition was not just model railways, with different halls for different hobbies, all with a connection to modelling, there were plenty of visitors. I think the model railways were the most popular, and they are hoping to increase space available this year. I think that it would have been an idea to have mixed up some of the rooms, as it would have then been easier to compare and learn from what other modelling/wargaming hobbies are doing. I will be promoting the hobby as something new, cool and trying to cast the 'playing with toy trains' image to the bin. I would think that maybe such a combined exhibition would help to chuck that 'toy trains' image in the bin, as it emphasises the link with other adult modelling hobbies, rather than just with the childhood trainset. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loconuts Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Having just read a non over grown school boy article in a local newspaper which states that after fishing the Model Railway Hobby ranks second most popular hobby in this country. Is there any need for this topic to continue. Loconuts Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aforsyth Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I would think that maybe such a combined exhibition would help to chuck that 'toy trains' image in the bin, as it emphasises the link with other adult modelling hobbies, rather than just with the childhood trainset. Yep - scale model railways at a military model exhibition, while 'Thomas' and fun layouts could appear at toy fairs and kids camps. Makes sense to me. However, I think there will always be a limited need for colourful, toy-like trains at most mainstream model railway exhibitions. As a family man, I would find it a lot more difficult to get to any exhibitions if I couldn't convince my wife that there's 'something for the kids'! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rue_d_etropal Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Be careful how some seem to judge 'toy trainsets', as there is definitely a place at model railway exhibitions for some historic displays such as Hornby tinplate and Hornby Dublo 3 rail. There was a picture of a Hornby tinplate layout at Alexandria Palace recently, and that looks far more interesting than some of the state of the art layouts at exhibitions, so we have to be careful how we judge layouts whether they are finescale or toy trainset. For me getting the right balance of layouts at exhibitions is the best way to promote the hobby. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted March 2, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 2, 2015 The difficulty I have at some exhibitions is that the good layouts have trains crawling around at slower than scale speed. The owner, and fellow modellers, may be impressed with the slow running, but to the general observer (IMHO) things just move too slowly, as if it had “broken down” The vintage Hornby Dublo and O gauge layouts on the other hand always have some real action going on and larger crowds of spectators. I suspect that this has something to do with the general public see trains going past more often than they would be watching a shunt. Thus the action layout reflects their railway experience more than a shunting layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnarcher Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Be careful how some seem to judge 'toy trainsets', as there is definitely a place at model railway exhibitions for some historic displays such as Hornby tinplate and Hornby Dublo 3 rail. There was a picture of a Hornby tinplate layout at Alexandria Palace recently, and that looks far more interesting than some of the state of the art layouts at exhibitions, so we have to be careful how we judge layouts whether they are finescale or toy trainset. For me getting the right balance of layouts at exhibitions is the best way to promote the hobby. Sure there's a place for all, that's why I said it would link with something else, not just with the trainset. The tinplate is 'far more interesting' to some people perhaps, certainly not to everyone. A balance as you say. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 The difficulty I have at some exhibitions is that the good layouts have trains crawling around at slower than scale speed. The owner, and fellow modellers, may be impressed with the slow running, but to the general observer (IMHO) things just move too slowly, as if it had “broken down” The vintage Hornby Dublo and O gauge layouts on the other hand always have some real action going on and larger crowds of spectators. I suspect that this has something to do with the general public see trains going past more often than they would be watching a shunt. Thus the action layout reflects their railway experience more than a shunting layout. I think "scale speed" often gets confused with scale acceleration. Most layouts are overly distance compressed and don't have the space to adopt the latter. Scale speed will still look wrong if you get there and back in six inches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted March 2, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 2, 2015 Its all in the title. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/96650-timeshift-the-joy-of-train-sets-the-model-railway-story/&do=findComment&comment=1802388 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torn-on-the-platform Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I saw Newbie Bridge at the Doncaster show and thought that that was a good idea for encouraging the youngsters. A good standard of transition layout that will encourage those younger railway enthusiasts who haven't yet developed specific interests within the hobby and like to see model trains similar to their own running around, whilst thinking 'I'd like mine to run on a layout like that'. I remember a layout in Railway Modeller, around 2002, called Chiddlington (I think), that really enthralled me. It was based at home, I believe in a shed, and whilst Southern region based with lovely scenery, its track plan was aimed at entertainment value rather than prototypical accuracy. The rolling stock was all RTR and seemed to include whatever took the builder's fancy. Whilst my interests have moved on and become more specific, at the time I couldn't think of a more perfect model railway. I think that this type of layout appeals to more people than we on RMWeb may realise, and if there are lots of this type out there (I've noticed a fair few on Youtube), they could really do with some more air-time in the magazines to whet the appetites of those who would be happy in the area of the spectrum between train sets and super-detailed prototypical layouts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnarcher Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Its all in the title. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/96650-timeshift-the-joy-of-train-sets-the-model-railway-story/&do=findComment&comment=1802388 Sorry, all what? I wouldn't come to any conclusion based on what some media type thinks is an amusing pun. I remember a layout in Railway Modeller, around 2002, called Chiddlington (I think), that really enthralled me. It was based at home, I believe in a shed, and whilst Southern region based with lovely scenery, its track plan was aimed at entertainment value rather than prototypical accuracy. The rolling stock was all RTR and seemed to include whatever took the builder's fancy. Whilst my interests have moved on and become more specific, at the time I couldn't think of a more perfect model railway. I think that this type of layout appeals to more people than we on RMWeb may realise, and if there are lots of this type out there (I've noticed a fair few on Youtube), they could really do with some more air-time in the magazines to whet the appetites of those who would be happy in the area of the spectrum between train sets and super-detailed prototypical layouts. No doubt some people would be attracted by that sort of thing, but, as I said before, I have also, a couple of times, spoken to non-modellers at shows who (with reason I think) dismissed it as just a bigger, more expensive, version of their kid's train set. ( I am talking about some layouts I have seen at shows, the one you mention sounds a bit like them, but of course I haven't seen it) That's why it has been said here a few times that you need a variety at shows (and in magazines) to show the range of the hobby and thus attract a variety of people. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torn-on-the-platform Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 No doubt some people would be attracted by that sort of thing, but, as I said before, I have, a couple of times, spoken to non-modellers at shows who (with reason I think) dismissed it as just a bigger, more expensive, version of their kid's train set. That's why it has been said here a few times that you need a variety at shows (and in magazines) to show the range of the hobby and thus attract a variety of people. I think you need to see the layout in question to know precisely what I'm getting at, which is unfortunate as it has no internet presence that I can find. The layout still looked the part, with ballasting and good scenic work, certainly more than one step up from train set. Doncaster got the mix right in my opinion, with a couple of more basic layouts but a fantastic array of top quality, super detailed and prototypical models to show what can really be done. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnarcher Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I think you need to see the layout in question to know precisely what I'm getting at, which is unfortunate as it has no internet presence that I can find. The layout still looked the part, with ballasting and good scenic work, certainly more than one step up from train set. Doncaster got the mix right in my opinion, with a couple of more basic layouts but a fantastic array of top quality, super detailed and prototypical models to show what can really be done. You'll see I edited my post to say I haven't actually seen it, I'll take your word for the quality of scenics etc meaning it was more interesting that the show ones I referred to. It was the 'running anything the builder fancied' that suggested the connection - more a 'train set' approach than a model of a plausible railway scene. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianusa Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 We have been sparring over this topic since its inception. As mentioned, I have a O gauge tinplate layout; it is not a train set which is what when one buys a box of trains. If its just an oval on the floor and the scenery is the furniture, its a layout. My layout takes up a dedicated room and is sceniced to a toy standard to match the trains and accessories. Its not recognisable to a particular area as some layouts on here; the buildings come straight from the factory like other tinplate layouts and the third rail is an anathema to most herein. But it provides just the same pleasure as the most detailed and prototypical example found on these pages. These are all trains we are talking about no matter their scale or gauge and who are we to criticise the way we enjoy them. Years ago during my N and OO eras, the same discussions and arguments were heard and my opinion was firmly in the "tinplate is for kids" side of the topic. Times change! Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnarcher Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Maybe a layout is yet another category? But surely a circle on the floor is the classic arrangement of a train set? I do think there is a difference between that and a model railway - a model of something definable. They may both give as much pleasure, but not quite the same pleasure. I don't think any criticism was expressed, just the idea that if promoting the hobby one needs to show something of all the different (not better or worse) approaches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torn-on-the-platform Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 You'll see I edited my post to say I haven't actually seen it, I'll take your word for the quality of scenics etc meaning it was more interesting that the show ones I referred to. It was the 'running anything the builder fancied' that suggested the connection - more a 'train set' approach than a model of a plausible railway scene. Fair enough! Sorry for the ambiguity. The stock was largely BR(SR) - Pullmans, Mk1 rakes, Hornby's old pseudo-Maunsells with, as far as I can remember, the early super detailed models such as Hornby MNs, Bachmann N class and 4MTs, just without obvious modification. When I'm next near my old magazine collection I will try to fish out the relevant issue! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 We have been sparring over this topic since its inception. As mentioned, I have a O gauge tinplate layout; it is not a train set which is what when one buys a box of trains. If its just an oval on the floor and the scenery is the furniture, its a layout. My layout takes up a dedicated room and is sceniced to a toy standard to match the trains and accessories. Its not recognisable to a particular area as some layouts on here; the buildings come straight from the factory like other tinplate layouts and the third rail is an anathema to most herein. But it provides just the same pleasure as the most detailed and prototypical example found on these pages. These are all trains we are talking about no matter their scale or gauge and who are we to criticise the way we enjoy them. Years ago during my N and OO eras, the same discussions and arguments were heard and my opinion was firmly in the "tinplate is for kids" side of the topic. Times change! Brian. But if you take that same circle and put it on display at the State funded California State Railroad Museum, and hang a sign over it saying "Scale Model Railroad", you have passed from "it's my (hobby) layout" to misrepresentation of science and engineering. To the detriment of the education of the youngsters attending. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianusa Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Now why would there be a sign calling a toy train set a scale model railroad? Even Californios know the difference although I don't know about the CSRM sometimes which seems to have acquired a mid life crisis! Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Now why would there be a sign calling a toy train set a scale model railroad? Even Californios know the difference although I don't know about the CSRM sometimes which seems to have acquired a mid life crisis! Brian. Because the NMRA is intent on hanging it there over some of their historic layouts and publicity materials. See nmra.org. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rue_d_etropal Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Trouble is ,there are a lot of people who do not know the difference between 'scale' and 'gauge'; and plenty of companies to exploit it, and best example is G gauge and scale. Over the years we have all contributed to the problem, for example by talking about OO gauge, N gauge etc and coming up with different naming standards. It is now something we all have to live with, which is one reason I believe exhibitions should have as big a mix of scales and gauges as possible, as we should not just entertain the visitors but also educate them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianusa Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Because the NMRA is intent on hanging it there over some of their historic layouts and publicity materials. See nmra.org. Might have guessed that knowing the NMRA! Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Trouble is ,there are a lot of people who do not know the difference between 'scale' and 'gauge'; and plenty of companies to exploit it, and best example is G gauge and scale. Over the years we have all contributed to the problem, for example by talking about OO gauge, N gauge etc and coming up with different naming standards. It is now something we all have to live with, which is one reason I believe exhibitions should have as big a mix of scales and gauges as possible, as we should not just entertain the visitors but also educate them. I was quite surprised to discover that a relative who is building a Hornby based layout and has had model railways since childhood had no idea that the gauge used for 00 was narrow for its scale; I very much doubt though whether more than ten per cent of the people who buy 00 products know that either. The real problem with 00, British N and TT-3 is that you can't really call them a gauge or a scale, at least not where track or wheels are involved, so what can you call it? I'll also hazard a guess that there are plenty of people visiting shows who think that EM or P4 buildings are different from those for 00. There was a time when 00 was simply a gauge (5/8 inch slightly widened to 16.5mm) until those using it split on scale and 00 came to mean 4mm/ft while 3.5mm/ft was named as H0 (by the editor of Model Railway News) . After that 00 seems to have generally been regarded as the scale of 4mm/ft with various suggestions for the gauge to be used with it until 00 fine scale using 18mm gauge track was re-christened EM so it was pretty impossible to sensibly call it anything. The result is that you can't talk about 00 as a definiton of a scale because it's the same scale as EM and P4 and they are clearly not a subset of 00. You also can't talk about it as a defintion of gauge because that would make it the same as H0 which is also clearly wrong. So, you end up with 00 as a specific gauge and scale combination so maybe you can only call it 00. Curiously the use of 00 to mean the gauge lasted far longer in France and possibly elsewhere where modellers generally followed British practice, using 1:43 scale for 0 for example. In French magazines 1:87 (or sometimes 1:86) scale on 16.5mm track was still referred to as 00 until the early 1950s when it became H0. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torn-on-the-platform Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 Just for completion, I have found the RM article I have been referring to. It is indeed 'Chiddlington', built by P.J. Clarke and it appears in the June 2003 issue. IIRC, it was only my second ever issue of RM, bought by my Granddad. 'Southern steam predominates, but there are a few oddities...' I think what appealed to me at the time, was that, as well as Southern locomotives, it appeared quite similar to how my club, Rusper MRC, runs. It also fitted my Dad's ideas for what my future layout in the loft (that never came into being) could look like. This issue really is very good, and includes Robin Brasher's Corfe Viaduct, that I have noticed appears on this forum quite regularly. Also worth noting that brand new Merchant Navies cost £75 only 12 years ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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