BR 1958/9 Cambrian Coast Express Formation

[Adrock]

Hi All,

 

I seem to remember this topic being discussed before (indeed I asked a question originally on the RM Web archive, but I cant add to that anymore)...but is anyone able to list the official train formation for the Cambrian Coast express in Winter 1958 and / or 1959? I appreciate this is a very specific question but I have recently bought the Bachmann Cambrian Coast Express set from a few years ago (wooden box, 6 coaches) and am looking at which additional mk 1's I need to purchase in order to make an accurate formation. The autobuffet as included in the set seems to be a late addition - probably the last year of all chocolate and cream coloured coaches in 1962 - and a bit out of my time period to appear with my Dukedog. I believe up until 1961 catering was provided by a restaurant car which I think Bachmann make.

 

Incidentally, does anyone know what classification the autobuffet had? Or was it simply still referred to as an SK for diagramming purposes?

 

Any help is much appreciated.

 

[chrisf]

Formation winter 1958-59, according to a carriage working programme form Robert Carroll's collection:

 

SK [sats only], BSK, SK, FK for Pwllheli, RU,  FK, SK, BSK for Aberystwyth.

 

I must confess I thought the RU came off at Shrewsbury or why else would the auto-buffet have been attached?

 

Chris 

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Chris and Adrock,

  From memory, and without checking, i believe it was a Mk1 RU all the way to Aberystwyth until about 1961. From then on it was a RB from Paddington to Shrewsbury, with the Mk1 Auto Buffet then added at one end. These dates will explain why the chocolate and cream AB coach was always seen running with maroon coaches, since the chocolate livery was being phased out at the time. I too have one of the very nice Bachmann CCE sets, i would advise buying a Bachmann choc RU to run with the set coaches and some maroon types (BSK/SK/CK/CK/SK/BSK?) for the AB. Hope this helps.

 

                                                                                 Cheers, Brian.

[Adrock]

Hi Brian, many thanks for your informative response - very helpful. You are right that I need to get an RU and also another FK and SK to give me the 7 car winter formation as described by Chris. I would then have the CK and the AB spare (or I coukd run the AB as an SK by removing the AB conversion). The challenge now will be finding the required coaches!

 

I already have a couple of Maroon mk1s with WR running numbers but want an all chocolate and cream set so I may move them on.

[Brian Kirby]

Hi again Adam,

      You shouldn't have too much trouble getting hold of the various maroon Mk1s, but the chocolate RUs have been a bit thin on the ground lately. One little point about the Bachmann Auto-Buffet, which may or may not bother you, is that they correctly modelled the blue blanked-off window on the compartment side,   

 but incorrectly used another blue insert to blank-off the corridor window. The corridor window was actually clear, with only a small band marked "Buffet" across it. I'm afraid i can't point towards a decent photo of this feature, since the corridor side looks like any other chocolate SK, apart from the window sign. I altered mine years ago, by taking a spare choc SK and swapping a pair of windows, thus i ended up with two Auto-Buffets (!), one of which i sold to a mate. Hold on to your choc CK, i think it was used earlier in one of the two Cambrian portions (i.e. Aberystwyth and Pwllheli)

 

                                                                                                    Cheers, Brian.

[robertcwp]

Lots of CCE formations in these notes:

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32711444/Articles/Cambrian_Coast_Express_Notes_15-10-13.pdf

[Silver Sidelines]

Hello Adrock

 

Yes - the autobar coach would seem to have been introduced in 1962.

 

As to the arrangement of coaches I thought there was an accompanying booklet in the Bachmann set with details of various train formations?

 

Enjoy

 

Regards

 

Ray

Edited February 25, 2015 by Silver Sidelines

[Adrock]

Lots of CCE formations in these notes:

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32711444/Articles/Cambrian_Coast_Express_Notes_15-10-13.pdf

Your group is a fantastic resource and source of information - thanks again Robert!

[Adrock]

Hi again Adam,

You shouldn't have too much trouble getting hold of the various maroon Mk1s, but the chocolate RUs have been a bit thin on the ground lately. One little point about the Bachmann Auto-Buffet, which may or may not bother you, is that they correctly modelled the blue blanked-off window on the compartment side,

but incorrectly used another blue insert to blank-off the corridor window. The corridor window was actually clear, with only a small band marked "Buffet" across it. I'm afraid i can't point towards a decent photo of this feature, since the corridor side looks like any other chocolate SK, apart from the window sign. I altered mine years ago, by taking a spare choc SK and swapping a pair of windows, thus i ended up with two Auto-Buffets (!), one of which i sold to a mate. Hold on to your choc CK, i think it was used earlier in one of the two Cambrian portions (i.e. Aberystwyth and Pwllheli)

 

Cheers, Brian.

Hi Brian,

 

Thanks for your further reply. I checked my Autobuffet coach this morning and only one side has the blue blanking plate across the window on my model. The corridor side looks like a completely normal SK (which seems to be correct from what you say). I only bought my set a couple of months ago and it's in mint condition so I can't image it's been altered by its previous owner. Good news really as I could run it as a normal SK in 1958-61 mode and as an AB for 1962 running.

[Adrock]

Hello Adrock

 

Yes - the autobar coach would seem to have been introduced in 1962.

 

As to the arrangement of coaches I thought there was an accompanying booklet in the Bachmann set with details of various train formations?

 

Enjoy

 

Regards

 

Ray

Hi Ray,

 

It does provide one formation but I think its 1956 or 57. I will have another read through it tonight to check. It may also make more sense now that I have read Robert's guide.

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Brian,

 

Thanks for your further reply. I checked my Autobuffet coach this morning and only one side has the blue blanking plate across the window on my model. The corridor side looks like a completely normal SK (which seems to be correct from what you say). I only bought my set a couple of months ago and it's in mint condition so I can't image it's been altered by its previous owner. Good news really as I could run it as a normal SK in 1958-61 mode and as an AB for 1962 running.

 

Well perhaps my set had two blank windows by mistake? Can anybody else verify this fitment? Perhaps mine would have been a collector's item after all! Anyway, all sorted out ages ago. If looking for pics of the AB in traffic, other than Robert's rather distant photo, it shows up frequently as the choc coach on the end of a rake with six maroon Mk1s. There's a side-on colour pic of the AB's corridor side in one of the Ian Allan portfolio books, but frustratingly, there's a W&L narrow-gauge loco on a well wagon, right in front of THAT buffet band window. Arrrrrrrrrrrrgh !          BK

[Adrock]

Really interesting Brian - it would be great to hear if anyone else has two blanked off windows!

 

I've managed to track down and purchase a brand new RU in chocolate and cream so I'm just looking for an FK to complete my 58-61 rake. I may puchase a 6 coach maroon set next to run with the AB!!

[Brian Kirby]

Something i forgot to mention, and going slightly off-topic from your original question, was that i'm pretty sure the "Auto-Buffet" was later restored back to ordinary SK condition and ran in blue-grey livery. What i don't know, is what happened to it in the mid-1960s, was it converted back and painted maroon, or was it in store and put straight into blue-grey as a SK? Does anybody know the answer?       BK

[Adrock]

Well I've purchased an FK as well as an SK. So I now have the winter set for 1958-61 as follows:

 

BSK SK FK RU FK SK BSK (all in Choc and cream)

 

And I'm now going to create a mixed choc / cream and maroon set using the CK and AB from the CCE set:

 

AB (cc) BSK (maroon) SK (m) CK (m) CK (cc) SK (m) BSK (m).

 

I just need 3 of the maroon coaches to complete. Thanks everyone for your input on this!

[Adrock]

I've finally got around to assembling my new CCE trains. I've cleaned the track up on the layout and the locos seem to be running well, but I needed a long straight to photograph the two formations that I've built so the kitchen island seemed as good a place as any! It was just long enough - apologies for the poor lighting.

 

1958-61 winter formation:

 

 

1962 winter formation (Auto buffet, mainly chocolate and cream but maroon starting to appear):

 

 

 

 

[acourtrail]

Something i forgot to mention, and going slightly off-topic from your original question, was that i'm pretty sure the "Auto-Buffet" was later restored back to ordinary SK condition and ran in blue-grey livery. What i don't know, is what happened to it in the mid-1960s, was it converted back and painted maroon, or was it in store and put straight into blue-grey as a SK? Does anybody know the answer?       BK

 

The Auto Buffet coach ( W 25189 ) was re-converted into a standard MK1 SK, lasted in service until the early - 1980s and is in preservation.  By the mid - 1960s, there were plenty of SKs with no work to do, and, they were being converted into carflats and TPOs.  Because W 25189 was not used as fodder for carflat or TPO conversions, it would seem likely that it was given an overhaul around the mid - 1960s.  As to what livery it got, I cannot be sure.

[DCB]

My son was given a Cambrian Coast Express set for Christmas.  The Manor can't shift the 6 coach set on its own on our 1 in 100 main line gradient and it shed a rear driving wheel after about 30 minutes running.  My Triang/ Mainline/Romgford hybrid Manor is fine on a 1 in 50 with it.  Probably best to make sure your Manor can actually pull the train before adding any more coaches.

[Silver Sidelines]

As train spotter in short trousers I was fascinated by the Cambrian Coast Express.

 

All this talk of coaching stock has had me thinking.  Was there only one rake and did it go there and back in the day?  I have dug out my Bradshaw for winter 1960/61 and I attach an image of Table 189 for the Pwthwelli section which would suggest that the journey to Paddington took all day and that there would have to be two sets of coaches - and two converted SKs?

 

Cheers

 

Ray

 

BR Winter Timetable 1960/1961 Table 189

[PenrithBeacon]

During the summer months there was a portion from Manchester. I travelled on it to and from the Outward Bound school in 1963

[corneliuslundie]

Two rakes, yes, but only one autobuffet if it worked purely on the coast line. Up in the morning (0740), down in the afternoon (1545 off Machynlleth). Time for a leisurely lunch for the staff.

Not sure if one restaurant car could have done the return trip between Machynlleth and Paddington.

Jonathan

[tanatvalley]

The autobuffet worked between Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury always coupled next to the locomotive. The Up CCE arrived in Shrewsbury first at 12/41 (Winter 61/62 WTT), normally platform 4 with the loco at the Chester end of the station. The loco and autobuffet stayed coupled together, the remainder of the train departing for Wolverhampton. The loco and autobuffet then reversed out of the station and used the triangle to turn, it took on water in the station environs. The loco and autocoach were stabled in a siding next to Severn Bridge Junction Signalbox. When the down CCE arrived again normally platform 4, the loco and autobuffet reversed onto the train departing at 2/54 (Winter 61/62 WTT). At Machynlleth the Aberystwyth portion left at 5/02 and the Pwllheli one at 5/10.

 

​The autobuffet dispensed snack meals, cold drinks etc. and cigarettes and matches. there is an interior view in Talerddig in Great Western days by Gwyn Briwnant Jones, Gomer, 1999.

[Silver Sidelines]

Thanks

 

The  loco and autobuffet then reversed out of the station and used the triangle to turn, it took on water in the station environs. The loco and autocoach were stabled in a siding next to Severn Bridge Junction Signalbox..

 

You say loco in the singular.  There are lots of pictures showing the CCE double headed out from Shrewsbury.

 

Ray

[Adrock]

My son was given a Cambrian Coast Express set for Christmas. The Manor can't shift the 6 coach set on its own on our 1 in 100 main line gradient and it shed a rear driving wheel after about 30 minutes running. My Triang/ Mainline/Romgford hybrid Manor is fine on a 1 in 50 with it. Probably best to make sure your Manor can actually pull the train before adding any more coaches.

Hi,

 

I did actually run the full 7 coach rake behind the manor on my garage layout prior to dismantling it and moving house. The layout had no gradients and the manor only just managed it though. I’ve been very tempted to commission someone to build me a replacement metal chassis to provide the extra power needed.

 

Since then, I have carefully removed the weight from each mk1 coach. I can’t remember the exact figure off the top of my head, but it was adding about 20% of the weight to each coach; following removal the coach was still as heavy as an out of the box Hornby Hawksworth, so I don’t think any running quality will really be impacted. I have also inspected and lubricated each bogie with the close coupling mechanism as they seem to be a source of drag; I also had to open out the bearings on one wheel set.

Edited March 4, 2018 by Adrock

[tanatvalley]

Thanks

 

 

You say loco in the singular.  There are lots of pictures showing the CCE double headed out from Shrewsbury.

 

Ray

 

True but I believe these are more likely to have been a Saturday during the summer timetable. There are 2 reasons for this, first there were more photographers about on summer Saturdays and the load was heaviest on summer Saturdays. Single Manors and Moguls could take 315 tons over the steepest sections between Moat Lane - Talerddig and Borth - Aberystwyth in the down direction. The limiting factor in the up direction was the section between Machynlleth -Talerddig where the limit was 288 tons thus the 7 coach formation mentioned earlier. 

[Right Away]

Not sure if this is relevant but here's a snapshot of the CCE formation as running in the late 'fifties. It's from the Ian Allan publication "From the Footplate - Cambrian Coast Express" by Stephen Austin.