Thinking of jumping in to DCC, but at what price?

[sn]

I've started thinking of going digital for my next layout for no other reason really that I like the idea of adding sound to the experience.

 

I've no idea of the cost of this. What would be a ball park figure for a control unit and chipping say,  4  locos with chips?

 

 

[Nigelcliffe]

£100 per loco for quality sound.   DCC system at £150-£250 should get you a more than adequate and expandable.   Total £550-£650.

[ColinK]

Hornby have recently brought out a few sound fitted locos at very reasonable prices. My friend picked up a new sound fitted Network Rail class 37 at the Chapel show last weekend for under £70. Its fair to say that it is from their Railroad range and the sound is basic, so not up to the standards of more expensive models, but excellent value and a good introduction to DCC sound.

 

As for a controller, I suggest trying the simple DCC controller supplied with Bachmann train sets. While the controller is basic and cannot do things you might want to do if you go down the DCC route, again, it is a inexpensive way to try DCC sound without costing a fortune.

[Crosland]

Mind that most manufacturers devices are not compatible with their competitors stuff!

 

At the basic DCC level of signals on the track, everything is compatible. Manufacturer X's command station will work with manufacturer Y's decoders.

 

It's things outside the DCC specs such as Loconet, XpressNet and loading sound files that are not compatible but, even then, there is often more than one manufacturer so there is still some compatibility.

 

Andrew

[Mike Storey]

Alternatively, have a look at www.protocab.com. Sound is in the pipeline but not for at least another year, so it depends on your timescales.

[Nile_Griffith]

Hi there!

 

Just to further muddy the waters for you. It might be well worthwhile holding back on making any hard decisions for the next six months or so Bachmann in partnership with Bluerail trains are introducing a new Bluetooth based control system that looks set to offer some significant cost advantages when it comes to Loco control. Sound at the moment, is only scheduled for being produced at the controller rather than the loco (or via airplay to a compatible speaker set up), but judging by recent developments it seems the guys at Bluerail Trains are spending some time listening to modellers wants and their could be some interesting things in the pipeline. Essentially if you have a compatible smartphone, tablet or PC all you need is a Loco with a standard NEM DCC socket, fitted with a BlueRail chip and you can have DCC comparable control via your smart device, thus saving you a few shillings on the cost of buying proprietary DCC equipment.

 

Bachmanns YouTube video provides a good insight.

 

www.bluerailtrains.com

 

[Stevelewis]

I beleive  that  I  saw  some  info  on  Kato's  website  some  months  back  re  a  similar  sort  of  system,, I could  be  wrong,  but  not  seen  any  further info on it  since

[SHMD]

Hmm..

 

I must get on with my own system that IS basically that.

In 2012 Tesco's sold Bluetooth minute decoders for £4 each. I bought a load in preparation for this but haven't had the time to develop it. (I still plan to though.)

Although with my system, I was going to bury the DCC a lot deeper than they were - 6 feet under with my system!

 

 

Kev.

[sn]

Thanks for the comprehensive and considered replies.

 

Goodness much to think about. At first sight, perhaps even more expensive than I feared.

[Ron Ron Ron]

.....Just to further muddy the waters for you.

It might be well worthwhile holding back on making any hard decisions for the next six months or so Bachmann in partnership with Bluerail trains are introducing a new Bluetooth based control system that looks set to offer some significant cost advantages when it comes to Loco control. ....

....Essentially if you have a compatible smartphone, tablet or PC all you need is a Loco with a standard NEM DCC socket, fitted with a BlueRail chip and you can have DCC comparable control via your smart device, thus saving you a few shillings on the cost of buying proprietary DCC equipment......

 

For anyone prepared to wait 6 months ....to a year or more, this development might be worth watching.

 

The downside is that if it takes off in the mainstream model railway hobby, as opposed to the toy market where the system is said to be initially aimed, it will probably be a number of years before becoming mature enough to encompass a full range of "DCC like" functionality.

 

If it comes off, the upside (and it's a biggy) is there will be no requirement to purchase a system, in the same sense as you need a DCC or other control system. i.e. ........

No need for a £130 NCE PowerCab

No need foe a £155 Digitraxx Zephyr

No need for a £250 Prodigy Advance2  

No need for a £270 Lenz Set100

No need for a £305 Digitraxx Super Chief

No need for a £500 ESU ECoS

 

All that will be required is an app to run on your controlling device and a suitable low cost power supply to the rails.

 

The cost of the app is an unknown at this point in time.

It might be Free, 99p, £5 or £10 ?

 

A suitable power supply can be DC, DCC (possibly a redundant booster) or even on-board batteries (dead rail).

Someone changing over from DC (or dare I say it DCC) will already have that power supply.

 

However, these are big ifs.

For the OP or anyone else contemplating such a move, waiting may not be a worthwhile option.

In which case a regular DCC choice is more appropriate.

 

 

.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Have you actually heard the sound available from DCC? Personally I do much better playing the sounds inside my head. It's cheap too...

 

What will also have a bearing on your decision, is 'what locos?'. While near everything is potentially possible, it's one thing equipping four OO heavy freight diesel models with sound, and quite another if it's four N gauge 0-6-0T.

 

DCC is the well developed option with much choice and currently available product.

 

There are many other possible control methods. Past experience suggests that promised future features take five times longer to appear than projected, and initially offer half what was proposed. Most will be dead in terms of future development inside a decade, either crushed by whatever emerges as the next dominant approach; or abandoned when the market for this class of product decides DCC is good enough.

[sn]

I thought protcab looked interesting I have to say.

[Mike Storey]

I thought protcab looked interesting I have to say.

 

Yes, it is the only system that does not rely on track power, meaning no complex wiring or dirty track problems, unlike the bluetooth system and other such solutions, and Protocab will be capable of using tablets, PC's or phones for controllers. In fact it was originally developed with only those control systems in mind, but Protocab's research over the past two years revealed that over 50% of prospective users wanted proper knobs and buttons! Hence the production of their simple controllers.

 

The technology already exists commercially with two different systems that have been on sale in the USA for some years, but neither has been put forward for clearance for European use. The advent of cheap, very powerful, micro LiPod batteries is the step-change that now makes on-board power a realistic proposition. The basic form of Protocab has now completed Beta testing and will be available for sale this spring, but not yet with sound. The key question is how long we might have to wait for sound, lights and other functions to be added.

 

I am certainly going to give this a go, having only just started construction of a new layout.

[Nile_Griffith]

For anyone prepared to wait 6 months ....to a year or more, this development might be worth watching.

 

The downside is that if it takes off in the mainstream model railway hobby, as opposed to the toy market where the system is said to be initially aimed, it will probably be a number of years before becoming mature enough to encompass a full range of "DCC like" functionality.

 

If it comes off, the upside (and it's a biggy) is there will be no requirement to purchase a system, in the same sense as you need a DCC or other control system. i.e. ........

No need for a £130 NCE PowerCab

No need foe a £155 Digitraxx Zephyr

No need for a £250 Prodigy Advance2  

No need for a £270 Lenz Set100

No need for a £305 Digitraxx Super Chief

No need for a £500 ESU ECoS

 

All that will be required is an app to run on your controlling device and a suitable low cost power supply to the rails.

 

The cost of the app is an unknown at this point in time.

It might be Free, 99p, £5 or £10 ?

 

A suitable power supply can be DC, DCC (possibly a redundant booster) or even on-board batteries (dead rail).

Someone changing over from DC (or dare I say it DCC) will already have that power supply.

 

However, these are big ifs.

For the OP or anyone else contemplating such a move, waiting may not be a worthwhile option.

In which case a regular DCC choice is more appropriate.

 

 

.

 

Hi

 

Did receive an email from BlueTrains that the Bachmann App will be free and that all seems to be in line for a summer"isn 2015 release. There are also some online video's showing their Bluetooth accessory decoders, so things are looking favourable.

 

I'd agree that a more realistic timescale for a full range of available products might be at least 12 months, but I would say that for someone looking to build a new layout the system has the potential to grow into something quite powerful and with that not requiring the same scale of cash or intellectual investment in hardware as DCC.

[F-UnitMad]

Thanks for the comprehensive and considered replies.

 

Goodness much to think about. At first sight, perhaps even more expensive than I feared.

Back to Common or Garden DCC, it doesn't have to be an all-at-once expense of course. I always thought I couldn't afford both O Scale and DCC, but doing things gradually, chipping one loco at a time, has spread the cost. Not all have sound either - I have to say that the novelty can soon wear off.....

[Phil S]

Two areas of comment .... nobody expects the spanish inquistition ...maybe 3 areas of comment 8-)

 

Sound - we do not live in a silent world ... but whether the provision of background sounds reflecting the area modelled - as could come form old Argo recordings for home, but not exhibition use (copyright), or from embedded sounds within a loco, depends perhaps on size and locale: When we started with G-Scale, and the G-Scale Society - visiting gardens and hearing sound fitted locos going around a garden, and hearing the sound changing behind objects, inspired us to adopt  sound for G Scale in the same way.

 

With OO/H0 the proportion of sound fitted locos has been 'lower', but is an increasing number... Overseas locos were pricy enough when bought on holiday, such that adding their unique sounds was a neglible extra ... hence they dominated at a time when little was available for the UK.  Such is the nature of UK sound distribution that it has attracted a financial penalty compared to the Continent/USA provision, as the recordings need to be made. 

Some may feel that, particularly on small layouts,the benefit of onboard sound is diminished, along with the bass.

Software exists to synchronise Sound files with (dcc controlled) layouts, or others where the location of the sound is identifiable.

 

Personally, I think that DMUs 'idling' in stations awaiting departure can only be represented by having sound playback - internal or external.  Westinghouse pumps are a characteristic of an idling steam loco with air brakes, and again these could be played locally or onboard.   Whichever method is chosen, it needs to be simple to keep in sync, and to track the position  of the train: onboard advantage.

 

It is always easier to 'start at the beginning', rather than do a mass conversion in 1 go ..  even when I changed from Zero-1 to Dcc, with over a 100 locos to convert, I did not do them all at once!!!  At least when Zero-1 started , with its 16 loco numbers, I only had 32 locos!  Even a bluetoooth based system would still require dedicated programmed sound recordings for embedded sound.. and the cost.  And the grass is always greener??? 

 

AS for Controllers / Style ... I too can join in with my preference which is the Roco Multimaus (about 70GBP when split from sets)  with the hidden advantages of compatibility with Expressnet and the Amplifier can alternatively be used as a Booster!

However ... an important consideration is Controller STYLE: Knobs/Sliders/Centre-Off AND Central Control Position eg ESU, ZTC, Elite ... whether or not accessories are controlled by the same unit, or handheld .... such as the Multimaus which does Locos and Accessories and has Onboard names and graphics ....BUT is cabled.... Now there is a 'more economical' route to CABLE-FREE control (such as the Bluetooth solution) ... the use of your existing Smart Phone with perhaps JMRO, RocRail, Roco/Fleischmann Z21 or Hornby E-link to name just a few: Cheaper because they do not have to obtain the dedicated licence/Compliance clearances for the radio part, as they use existing, approved phones and tablets form the Computer Industry  (Not that an iPhone 6 is cheap!)

Per dcc loco, prices start (Silent) from about 10GBP, Sound from 40..100+.  But what about accesories?  Servos rather than solenoids when looking forward.  If you cannot try someone elses existing setup - to see the aspects you like and dislike, then a small scale experiment on your own is called for.   The Bluetoooth system will still require track power - and protection from shorts etc, and some means of loco position identification if any track diagrams and automation are desired.  Look at the FREE software of RocRail and JMRI, and also try the S/w simulator of Roco Multimaus from their website.

[Torper]

If I was starting out I'd be completely confused by now.......

 

If you want to keep things simple buy a tried and tested DCC system.  Yes, other offerings may be in the pipeline and they may come to fruition and be good or they might not, and you might like controlling your trains from a smartphone or you might not.  With DCC as it stands you know what you're going to get and you know that it will work and you don't have to have a degree in electronics.

 

I started two or three years ago with the NCE PowerCab system, currently available at about £130.  For that you get everything you need - power supply, hand held controller/command station, leads, connection.  Before buying it I'd seen people using it and thought that the handset looked a bit big and clumsy, but when i tried it for myself I found it comfortable and intuitive.  You'll find a lot of people on this board are very happy indeed with the NCE system - check it with the search facility.

 

The other contender at the lower end of the market is the Roco MultiMaus.  If you can get it it is quite a bit cheaper and it's a very good system, but it appears to lack one feature that I would hate to be without - the ability to read back CVs.  If you want it to do that you'll have to invest in a Sprog and use your computer, but by the time you've done that you'll probably end up paying more that you would have done for the PowerCab.  There's a helpful discussion at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/31061-nce-powercab-vs-roco-multimaus/ comparing the two systems.

 

DT

[Phil S]

The other contender at the lower end of the market is the Roco MultiMaus.  If you can get it it is quite a bit cheaper and it's a very good system, but it appears to lack one feature that I would hate to be without - the ability to read back CVs.  If you want it to do that you'll have to invest in a Sprog and use your computer, but by the time you've done that you'll probably end up paying more that you would have done for the PowerCab.  There's a helpful discussion at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/31061-nce-powercab-vs-roco-multimaus/ comparing the two systems.

 

Phil: The Roco Red or Grey (Fleischmann) Multimaus CAN read back if plugged into a system supporting it - eg a Roco MultiCentralePro, or with the added Roco Rocomotion computer interface  (and now perhaps the Z21)... both of which then provide the separate programming track output.

 

After several years of using the plain Red Multimaus, then changing to the MultimausPRO and Multicentrale, I was initially 'caught out' by the Red handset reading back the data before allowing programming;  However, I often then chose to disable the read-back, as it slows programming, whilst the existing data, which you may no longer be interested in, is read back and displayed! ... I prefer the FASTER, simpler option of simply writing the new value into the chosen CV: it is less likely to fail, and works an a wide variety of decoders and scales without problem.

 

Perhaps even better, except for CV1 Basic Loco Address, it to set the controller to PoM mode, and simply reprogram the selected loco anywhere on the main layout, without the risk of reprogramming all your othr locoa on track to the same value!  If the short term memory of trying an adjustment is insufficient, a piece of paper and pencil serves quite well. However, I would also join in recommenddin the use of the SPROG to take complete records of decoders - especially any tweaked sound decoders you have.

The Basic Multimaus also allows 'NAMED' locos (5 characters) to be entered into its Library = 64 per handset, lists copyable between handsets.

And, although the manual only describes these as using CV1: Short AND LONG addresses may be used in the lIbrary, freely mixed.

The MultimausPRO handset (now discontinued in favour of the Z21 and smartphones) adds ROUTES which were available on a separate Controller for any Roco Multimaus/Expressnet System.  When combined with the 'free' re-use of the Amplifier as a Booster .... running multiple handsets and multiple Power Districts becomes very economical!  (A Maximum of 4 Boosters without  further hardware interfaces)