N15class Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Hi all I am starting to build a 7mm test track and layout. I will be building the track. I am trying to work out whether to steel rail. I would like to know of peoples experience with using steel compared to nickel silver. What is the track cleaning ritual required, does it easily rust, you know the sort of thing. Thanks in advance, I look forward to your input. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Hi Pete, I don't think you'll get a concensus on this. A fair number of people have reported rusting problems yet some of us have no rust at all. I've used it successfully in 4mm without any rusting for about five years, but this is in a warm house with low humidity though I doubt it would be the same out in the garage (this is in SE England, what's the humidity like in Brazil?). I always chemically blacken the rail before laying, cleaning the underside with a file where droppers need to be soldered on. The railhead can be polished if you want it shiny, though the layout is incomplete and gets little running so I've not yet needed anything more than a quick wipe over with a cloth with some IPA. The only time I've seen any slight surface rusting was a length of blackened rail lying around on the layout at the end where I was doing some damp work (applying sculptamold to the landscape surface) and a quick wipe over with the blackening solution cured that when I came to lay track at that end. So, it can be fine, but the results are variable. I can only advise trying some to see if it works in your environment. Nick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Loxborough Posted March 1, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 1, 2015 I have always used steel rail so can't give any useful comparisons with NS, but I do have the following comments; 1. I built a layout in Burundi (possibly similar conditions to those you have in Brazil?). It lived outside but under cover and, right through the rainy season, I never had any difficulties with rust. 2. Current railway room is in a warm and reasonably dry cellar in rural France. Similarly, no problems with rust until the central heating leaked all over one end while I was away travelling. Vigorous action with a track rubber sorted that out 3. You have to be very careful indeed about cleaning up properly after soldering as the acid goes on attacking steel. I was slack about this one one particular section of track (a scissors crossover) built about three years ago and despite having done all sorts of treatment to it since, it still needs an attack with a track rubber if left alone for a little while 4. Be careful of using real wood ash for ash ballast. It makes great looking ballast but is acidic and will attack your rails... Hope this is of some help, George Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 ...3. You have to be very careful indeed about cleaning up properly after soldering as the acid goes on attacking steel. I was slack about this one one particular section of track (a scissors crossover) built about three years ago and despite having done all sorts of treatment to it since, it still needs an attack with a track rubber if left alone for a little while... The simple answer is to use normal electrical/electronic multicore solder rather than a phosphoric or citric acid based flux, followed by chemical blackening. I'd also be very wary of abrasive rubbers on soft steel. Interesting comment about wood ash, George, obvious when you think about it though. I suspect that a good proportion of the rusting issues reported by others may be down to the use of various modelling media though the usual commercial ballast sources (e.g. C&L, Woodland Scenics, Slaters, etc) with PVA don't seem to be a problem. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HLT 0109 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 There is an interesting article in issue 206 (March) of Model Rail Magazine; George Dent tests DCC Concepts' latest innovation for 4mm - making a turnout from a kit using stainless steel rail. DCC Concepts recommends stainless steel because "it has greater resistance to oxidisation [than nickel silver] and promotes greater electrical performance". I have no experience of this (or indeed of making my own track) but, if you could get suitable rail in stainless steel, perhaps that would be the answer. It would be the right colour too. Harold. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 I do not like the idea of stainless steel. for me it is too bright. Thanks for the info on soldering and the use of blackening. I am also pleased about the lack of problems in Burundi, I live on the edge of the rain forest so it tends to very humid here, with 3 month rainy season. I am not worried about the difference in cost as it is only a few pounds, but I think nickel silver is too bright. in 4mm I used SMP bronze which looked so much better. Does any one find any noticeable difference in traction between the steel and nickel rail with Slaters steel wheels. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Some years ago I thought about using SMP bronze, mainly for the 'laziness' reason of (theoretically) not having to paint the rail sides. But then it seemed that one would have the problem of trains running on rails without shiny tops. Any views folks? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Yes, I still have a few lengths of phosphor bronze rail and a couple of turnouts I made using it around 1980. At the time I was sold by the idea that the sides would be the right colour but, later, when I started looking more closely at real track, I concluded this was nonsense. Like blackened steel, it may give a better basis for realistic weathering but, as you say, the rail head colour will never be right. Not just non-shiny, but a very wrong colour. Even shiny nickel silver looks better, though the colour is still wrong. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I do not like the idea of stainless steel. for me it is too bright. Thanks for the info on soldering and the use of blackening. I am also pleased about the lack of problems in Burundi, I live on the edge of the rain forest so it tends to very humid here, with 3 month rainy season. I am not worried about the difference in cost as it is only a few pounds, but I think nickel silver is too bright. in 4mm I used SMP bronze which looked so much better. Does any one find any noticeable difference in traction between the steel and nickel rail with Slaters steel wheels. I have used steel rail for over 40 years, in several places including an Australian beach front where the sea air did not cause any significant problem. None of my locations have really been 'high humidity' though. Reports from Brisbane suggest that their humidity levels effectively ruled out steel rail so perhaps you should be a bit wary and do some trials before getting to far into it. Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Yes, I still have a few lengths of phosphor bronze rail and a couple of turnouts I made using it around 1980. At the time I was sold by the idea that the sides would be the right colour but, later, when I started looking more closely at real track, I concluded this was nonsense. Like blackened steel, it may give a better basis for realistic weathering but, as you say, the rail head colour will never be right. Phosphor bronze is useful for things like check rails and the ends of sidings that never get shiny in real life. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 I have used steel rail for over 40 years, in several places including an Australian beach front where the sea air did not cause any significant problem. None of my locations have really been 'high humidity' though. Reports from Brisbane suggest that their humidity levels effectively ruled out steel rail so perhaps you should be a bit wary and do some trials before getting to far into it. Regards Keith I will be starting the test track soon so I will do that with hopefully steel aswell as the nickel. I have enough nickel to do the two turnouts so will try steel on the plain track. Phosphor bronze is useful for things like check rails and the ends of sidings that never get shiny in real life. I agree now but thought I was doing the right thing 20 years ago with my EM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Peter There are two camps on rail, those who like steel rail and those who don't. Steel has to be cleaned up after soldering to stop it from rusting, nickel silver is far more forgiving. The real answer I believe if your locos have steel wheels they work better on steel, and if they have nickel silver wheels then nickel silver rail is better. Also those who live near the sea suffer with salt in the air. If you are in a rainy/damp area steel rail may be more at risk of rusting Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted March 5, 2015 Author Share Posted March 5, 2015 Peter There are two camps on rail, those who like steel rail and those who don't. Steel has to be cleaned up after soldering to stop it from rusting, nickel silver is far more forgiving. The real answer I believe if your locos have steel wheels they work better on steel, and if they have nickel silver wheels then nickel silver rail is better. Also those who live near the sea suffer with salt in the air. If you are in a rainy/damp area steel rail may be more at risk of rusting I use slaters wheels that are steel. But the down side is I live close to a tidal river non salty, and on the edge of the rain forest. I like Nicks (buffalo) idea of blackening the rail. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Peter How do your wheels react ? that may give a clue as to which rail Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandra Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 In the past I've always used nickel silver rail but on the latest layout I've used steel rail on the visual part of the railway. I must admit to being in two minds about it. You have to be careful soldering steel rail for if you leave a residue of flux, it will rust. I live in London and so the atmosphere is not too humid and the only rust which has developed has been where I've failed to remove all the flux. My experience is that the track does not need to be cleaned so often even though I use DCC. In fact some track has not been cleaned for several weeks without any apparent deterioration in running. Therefore I would probably use steel track on any future layout but I would take more care to ensure that all traces of flux are removed. Sandra. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Most of my track is soldered using ply and rivet, soldered using solder paste with a corrosive flux. It is scrubbed off with an old toothbrush under the hot tap. One laid on the layout any subsequent soldering is done using non-corrosive fluxes only, generally the usual rosin core electrical solder wich takes to the steel just fine so long as it is clean. I agree that steel rail needs less cleaning, running trains round at least once a week generally keeps things running nicely for months. Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted March 5, 2015 Author Share Posted March 5, 2015 Peter How do your wheels react ? that may give a clue as to which rail A lot better since I stopped using Carrs flues. I always blacken as it helps and looks better. In the past I've always used nickel silver rail but on the latest layout I've used steel rail on the visual part of the railway. I must admit to being in two minds about it. You have to be careful soldering steel rail for if you leave a residue of flux, it will rust. I live in London and so the atmosphere is not too humid and the only rust which has developed has been where I've failed to remove all the flux. My experience is that the track does not need to be cleaned so often even though I use DCC. In fact some track has not been cleaned for several weeks without any apparent deterioration in running. Therefore I would probably use steel track on any future layout but I would take more care to ensure that all traces of flux are removed. Sandra. Thats useful to know, I have been told to use electrical rosin cored solder, for no rust. Most of my track is soldered using ply and rivet, soldered using solder paste with a corrosive flux. It is scrubbed off with an old toothbrush under the hot tap. One laid on the layout any subsequent soldering is done using non-corrosive fluxes only, generally the usual rosin core electrical solder wich takes to the steel just fine so long as it is clean. I agree that steel rail needs less cleaning, running trains round at least once a week generally keeps things running nicely for months. Regards Keith The less cleaning for me the better. You would of thought it would of been the other way around. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
28XX Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 A quick bit of experience to share regarding stainless steel, from one who worked in the food processing machinery business for a decade. There are two grades in general use. 304 or A2 or 18/8. This is the lower standard. It is not entirely stainless, salt and strong cleaning agents will make it tarnish. 316 or A4. This is a higher standard, sometimes refered to as marine grade. We used it for parts of machines in direct and frequent contact with food. There are other grades of course, e.g. for medical use but they are not relevant to this forum. Both 304 and 316 are difficult to work. TiN coated drills are needed as a minimum, cutting should be done at moderate speed with high pressure and lots of suds. Abrasives wear out quickly, quality hacksaw blades are essential and will need renewing frequently. It doesn't solder at all, stick welding with special rods works but is tricky. TiG welding is the best hot way to join it. I hate the stuff! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 I hate the stuff! I'm not aware of anyone supplying rail drawn in stainless steel, at least for the smaller gauges. It has been/is used for wheel tyres, eg by Exactoscale. Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
28XX Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 The machine required to draw ss to a rail profile would be very expensive, as it doesnt 'flow' like brass and nickle silver. It work-hardens to brittle as soon as you look at it. In sheet metal work you only get one chance to form a bend. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I eventually decided to go with NS, which is the safe bet. My loco wheels are basically rust free; the Slaters ones were thoroughly cleaned, degreased and blacked, then oiled whilst the locos were being built, I think the Ixion ones are plated, they don't blacken, I haven't attacked the Lionheart yet. On the basis of the Slaters wheels, I could probably have gone with steel, but as the layout will eventually be in a shed, rather than in the lounge, I felt it wiser to play safe, although, from an appearance point-of-view, I'd have preferred steel. I can always bring the locos indoors, can't do that with the track! (And stainless doesn't look like mild steel either!) HTH Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted March 10, 2015 Author Share Posted March 10, 2015 I am going to use some on my test track and see what happens. I have no trouble with blackened wheels. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 As mentioned above, mind how you go with the ballast. Fifty plus years ago I thought it would be a good idea to use my dad's lawn sand to ballast a bit of my Peco spiked FB track (wonder if anyone remembers that stuff?) I was using the steel rail which I seem to remember was zinc plated or coated. To make matters worse, this was in a damp cellar in the west of Scotland. It didn't take long for the rail to take on a very realistic rusty appearance! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRIDGEMAN Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 I to had this dilemma when I started to plan my layout about ten years ago. Steel v Nickel Silver. I was swayed to steel by several reports written about exhibition layouts using steel track as after a period of running the surface takes on a very prototypical look of case hardened steel and does not attract dirt anything like Ni. I am still building my layout so do not have first hand experience to back this up. However in the latest Scalefour News there is an article by Tim Venton entitled "Keeping the Wheels Turning" which verifies this point with 30 years experience. Regarding soldering I use a No Clean alcohol based liquid flux sold by DCC Concepts, it is about £10 a bottle but does not corrode the metal like acid does and lasts ages.Also it does not eat away at the soldering iron tip. If painting it does suggest cleaning the joint with IPA or Meths. I live about a half mile from the sea and have not had any rust problems. Hope this helps, Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.