Who wants a newly tooled Class 91?

[MGR Hooper!]

 

Hornby obsessed by steam? Perfectly right and proper; so am I. I also have a thing about diesel and a love of electric. That's not to mention a hankering for turbines and a weakness for modern wagons.

 

 

I like steam too...Quite a few steam locos found a place in my heart! Personally I feel every manufacturer should not really stick to one type. I'd really love Hornby to spread it's wings...They have what it takes. They just decide to stick to steam locos.

 

It would be nice if they had one or two proper AC electrics in their fleet.

 

If they want to be known as Britain's Most Well Known Household Name then I think they should have something for everybody - am I wrong?

[Oakydoke]

There's still at least 5 years ahead of them. You could also argue that the shorter rakes that will stay with VTEC will be more attractive to the modeller. But besides that the VTEC HST and Mk3 coaches , which they've also announced,are not limited edition. These HSTs presumably also have a short life time.Sorry but coupled with the selling price even if it includes 2 mk4s this is just barking!

I agree that the price is barking mad.

I also think passing off Railroad grade products as main range items, at main range prices is a rather dishonest practice.

Then again, if people are stupid enough to buy them......?

 

As to "at least 5 years ahead of them", this train pack is due to be released in 2016, if I'm not mistaken?

If I understand it correctly, VTEC's Class 800 & 801's are due to be delivered between 2018 and 2020, with the HST's going first.

That would suggest that apart from the few shortened sets being kept on, most of the IC225 sets will be withdrawn from VTEC services by 2020 at the latest. Always assuming that the ECML introduction and production of the trains runs to time?

That's only 3 to 4 years after these train packs are due to go on sale.

 

So both the VTEC HST and IC225 (Class 91/DVT + coaches) train packs will have a potential shelf life of a few years, where they'll no doubt be popular.

That's quite a different proposition to the suggestion that either could form the basis of a train set that would sell for many more years to come. May I suggest that's why Hornby haven't gone down that road.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Oakydoke

[miles73128]

I agree that the price is barking mad.

I also think passing off Railroad grade products as main range items, at main range prices is a rather dishonest practice.

Then again, if people are stupid enough to buy them......?

 

As to "at least 5 years ahead of them", this train pack is due to be released in 2016, if I'm not mistaken?

If I understand it correctly, VTEC's Class 800 & 801's are due to be delivered between 2018 and 2020, with the HST's going first.

That would suggest that apart from the few shortened sets being kept on, most of the IC225 sets will be withdrawn from VTEC services by 2020 at the latest. Always assuming that the ECML introduction and production of the trains runs to time?

That's only 3 to 4 years after these train packs are due to go on sale.

 

So both the VTEC HST and IC225 (Class 91/DVT + coaches) train packs will have a potential shelf life of a few years, where they'll no doubt be popular.

That's quite a different proposition to the suggestion that either could form the basis of a train set that would sell for many more years to come. May I suggest that's why Hornby haven't gone down that road.

Happy to confirm I'm stupid! Looking forward to mine arriving.

[No Decorum]

I like steam too...Quite a few steam locos found a place in my heart! Personally I feel every manufacturer should not really stick to one type. I'd really love Hornby to spread it's wings...They have what it takes. They just decide to stick to steam locos.

 

It would be nice if they had one or two proper AC electrics in their fleet.

 

If they want to be known as Britain's Most Well Known Household Name then I think they should have something for everybody - am I wrong?

No, not wrong. My powers of prediction are hopeless. A few years ago I had Heljan all mapped out. It would be gas turbines, third rail DC electrics or AC electrics, with possibly 10800 or the Fell as a sideline. (We might have had 10800 if the wheelbase for the 16 hadn't been different.) Instead, Heljan decided to go for big stuff. Thanks to Dapol, Hornby and DJ Models, third rail's covered. What about the gas turbine which doubled as an electric? Foot in both camps.

[No Decorum]

I don't want to confess to crying so I'll say I'm upset. Here we are, getting electrics designed abroad which can do 125 m.p.h. to replace HSTs which can do 125 m.p.h. We have Pendolinos clattering up and down the WCML, capable of doing 155 but aren't allowed to because we can't afford the balises. In the 1970s, we were working on a train which could do 155. Where's the progress in that? It makes me want to weep . . . steady, that man! Chin up! Don't for heaven's sake think of Britain!

[MGR Hooper!]

I don't want to confess to crying so I'll say I'm upset. Here we are, getting electrics designed abroad which can do 125 m.p.h. to replace HSTs which can do 125 m.p.h. We have Pendolinos clattering up and down the WCML, capable of doing 155 but aren't allowed to because we can't afford the balises. In the 1970s, we were working on a train which could do 155. Where's the progress in that? It makes me want to weep . . . steady, that man! Chin up! Don't for heaven's sake think of Britain!

You've set me off now!! *water works starts off*

Edited December 1, 2015 by MGR Hooper!

[Rhydgaled]

But really this is a Railroad Model with a fancy paint job. No way can it command a price like that.Like the real thing, Hornby are taking us for a ride on this one.

I agree. In fact, I don't think the 91 is even up to the same standard as Lima's class 43 (IC125 powercar), which I assume wasn't changed at all (aside from the mechinism) for its release in Hornby's Railroad range (I've not seen the Railroad one in the flesh, but recently aquired a Lima set). Even if Hornby charged Railroad prices for their 91 (which they should) I'd want to see them retool the light clusters so they aren't just stickers.

 

As for the current standard VTEC livery, I like the look of the coaches (except the buffet, and only on photos, seen in the flesh it is just untidy because you can see the joins between the stickers) but the locos and DVTs are a mess.

 

There's still at least 5 years ahead of them. You could also argue that the shorter rakes that will stay with VTEC will be more attractive to the modeller. But besides that the VTEC HST and Mk3 coaches , which they've also announced,are not limited edition. These HSTs presumably also have a short life time.Sorry but coupled with the selling price even if it includes 2 mk4s this is just barking!

Perhaps they know they're overpricing the IC225 and have decided they won't sell many. Anyway, the current VTEC livery is stickers. I think they intend to do a full refurbishment of the sets (at least the ones that aren't being replaced by units) and perhaps they'll get a different (painted) livery following refurbishment.

 

I don't want to confess to crying so I'll say I'm upset. Here we are, getting electrics designed abroad which can do 125 m.p.h. to replace HSTs which can do 125 m.p.h. We have Pendolinos clattering up and down the WCML, capable of doing 155 but aren't allowed to because we can't afford the balises. In the 1970s, we were working on a train which could do 155. Where's the progress in that? It makes me want to weep . . . steady, that man! Chin up! Don't for heaven's sake think of Britain!

I will confess to crying (mostly in anger) when I heard that DaFT had approved the IC225 replacement order. Electric stock generally seems to have a 40yr life (30yr for diesel) so the IC225s by rights should be with us until 2030. Thus, in my view replacing the IC225s with 801s in 2019 is a criminal waste, particularly as the country is in debt and the new trains are much more expensive. By the way the 800/801 are supposed to be capable of 140mph (as, I hasten to add, are the class 91s (I keep forgetting to check the data panels on the mark 4 stock to ensure they are still 140mph rated, but the locos defininately say they are 140mph capable)). Of course the health and saftey pepole have ruled (rightly, probably) that neither IC225 nor class 800/801, nor 390* can run above 125mph without in-cab signalling.

 

* Pendolinos have a 140mph top speed I believe, not 155 (that was only APT-P I believe). I don't care about their top speed though, they are just a terrible design (tiny windows etc.), couldn't Virgin have ordered a 9-car electric version of the Voyager (larger windows) instead?

[No Decorum]

140 m.p.h. I stand corrected and apologise. Tears running down the cheeks, you know. When all the coal fired power stations are closed and the wind dies down, will all the lights in a town go out when the 800/801s go through?

[Classsix T]

A few more thoughts since my last post.

 

I subsequently found out that I require GNER liveried stock so the InterCity 225 set owned is surplus to requirements.

Checking the pre-owned market for GNER stock revealed coaches at comparable prices to current new tool Mk3s. Not a chance. Loco and van, pfft! If I'm going to buy new, I will buy NEW. Not end of life tat second hand.

 

So, the rub. Having read the above posts a paradox exists. (The following is purely MY TAKE!).

1) Hornby's tooling for this model must, after this length of time by any stretch of the imagination, owe them nothing. So their return after production and delivery must be pure profit.

 

2) To trumpet their new products with well deserved gusto and then flog this cart horse for top quality money sucks like the vacuum of space. Regardless of shiney new paint job.

 

3) Bachmann found out the hard way with their initial releases of Cl.37 and Cl.40 that you can't fob people off. A boycott of those products forced them to retool, Heljan 86...harrumph harrumph.

 

Basically, if the current 91 etc has paid for itself and continues to bring in revenue, I'd appreciate a statement why an entirely retooled set isn't a viable business proposition.

You can't regurgitate the oft bandied "there's no rtp ole", "electrics don't sell", because you wouldn't be punting this current sub standard stuff out at top drawer prices.

 

Finally, the Sutton Cl.24 proves the people who want top drawer will pay for it.

 

I love what Hornby have done for me in certain areas but this "Flagship" surely ran aground long ago.

 

C6T.

[Guest]

The Hornby price for the new release is unrealistic without some major retooling.  I'm happy that I purchased a used loco and DVT last fall for eighteen quid. Single coaches turned out to be about the same price as these two together.  

[DaveClass47]

I have all but given up on Hornby re-tooling their 91.   In fact, I have almost given up on Hornby all together!!

 

How could a crowd funded project be started to get another manufacturer to step up to the mark and give us a new 91, MK4 DVT and brand new MK4 coaches?

 

Maybe then Hornby may poke their head up from behind their rapidly growing mountain of niche (some instantly forgettable) classes of steam engines and take notice!  In saying that, I very much doubt they will even bat an eyelid as yet another one of the products which they used to have a monoploy on gets produced by a rival to a far superior standard (like the Class 37, Class 42, Class 47, Class 58, Class 59 and now the Class 90 etc).  

 

I have no company loyalty, I will go to who ever produces what I want and to the standard that is acceptable to the price charged!

[MGR Hooper!]

The easiest way is to contact someone like DJM, Rapido and Revolution. Since they're familiar with things like a kickstarter project already, I'm sure they will gladly help. If you contact DJM he will give you quotes etc. If you contact Revolution, they will probably do all the major setting up and then approach the likes of DJM, Rapido etc. to commission the project.

 

I shall wait one more year and see if Hornby announce one AC electric (probably a Class 86). For me it's not the end of the world. Dapol do an amazing Class 86 in N gauge. I can move to N gauge.

 

How could a crowd funded project be started to get another manufacturer to step up to the mark and give us a new 91, MK4 DVT and brand new MK4 coaches?

[MGR Hooper!]

In say that. I wonder if Phil Sutton of SLW is open to product suggestions. I'm assuming models like the Class 86 and Class 87 will sell well? They've lasted from the BR Blue era right uptill today.

[sawyermodels]

We've just had our East coast ones come in. The loco now has a 5 pole skew wound motor fitted driving the rear bogie and the dcc socket is located over the front bogie. Two traction tyres and pick ups on all wheels. Heavy loco to. The 5 pole motor is quiet and smooth just quickly tested one. Still old style couplings, no lights, no sprung buffers etc

[Magna Junction]

We've just had our East coast ones come in. The loco now has a 5 pole skew wound motor fitted driving the rear bogie and the dcc socket is located over the front bogie. Two traction tyres and pick ups on all wheels. Heavy loco to. The 5 pole motor is quiet and smooth just quickly tested one. Still old style couplings, no lights, no sprung buffers etc

How about the wheels? Will it run on code 75 trackwork or are they still like pizza cutters!?

[sawyermodels]

The wheels are hornbys new style that come in the class 90

[miles73128]

Ah! Thought it was the new motor! So having re-tooled the motor, very much doubt that it will be revised further now.

Edited December 10, 2015 by miles73128

[GordonC]

Ah! Thought it was the new motor! So having re-tooled the motor, very much doubt that it will be revised further now.

 

makes you wonder why they bothered when the rest of the loco is so basic ... unless they absolutely had to perhaps because the new factory couldn't use the old tooling

 

for me the front lights just dont look convincing. I'm not sure whether they've the nose comes to too much of a point and its reduced the depth of the lights

[Removed a/c]

The HST set only has 1 motor and works beautifully, not so sure the 91 and DVT would need a motor each. 

Edited December 12, 2015 by thebritfarmer

[sub39h]

The HST set only has 1 motor and works beautifully, not so sure the 91 and DVT would need a motor each. 

 

The HST is a central drive can motor with all wheel pick up and all wheel drive. The 91 is just a ringfield motor in a bogie, which presumably has the same weird pick up arrangement as before meaning it'll stall over their own points. If you want it to haul a full rake at scale speed, it'll need its second bogie motorising as well.

 

I agree with all the statements above that the new price of the 91 is hilarious if the model isn't a retool. I genuinely wouldn't pay more than about £30 for the 91 in its current state, and no more than about £15 for a DVT. 

 

I'm eagerly awaiting Bachmann's Class 90 (which will hopefully lead onto a Class 87), and own a Heljan Class 86 which I'm mostly quite happy with and think could sell very well with a minor retool and some new liveries. That only leaves the 91 and 92 for Hornby to retool but I won't be holding my breath. 

[Removed a/c]

Sorry should have been more clear. If the 91 was re-motored (to make it like the HST) the DVT wouldn't need to be motorized. 

[HornbyA3Fan]

Just read through some of the posts above, and I completely agree in terms of why replace a electric loco/train with something that would do the exact same, yet seems to be the only solution to the already capable loco+dvt and up to 10 MK4's by starting to put them out of service 4 to 5 years from now, even though they have more life in them for many more years to come. Just seems and sounds illogical to replace them so soon. Heck even the 'Skippers' (I think the right nickname for the 142/143/144 Railbuses) are going to be around some time yet, maybe even a year after the 91's are due to start to be withdrawn. 

 

But anyway, back on topic. Ahem. One thing that determines even the VTEC 91+DVT set, is will it finally include etched parts and Head/Tail lighting to modern standards of now? Maybe not, but surely there is still a market for OHLE loco's etc in both RTR and kit build? Not hating on the current 91, but the price is still quite steep for something that is as old as the real counterpart itself. I do hope that Hornby gives the 91 and 90 something of a tribute of upgrading them before they all disappear off the mainline in about 5 plus years time.

Edited December 14, 2015 by HornbyA3Fan

[Rhydgaled]

surely there is still a market for OHLE loco's etc in both RTR and kit build?

Hornby are doing a class 71 in the 2016 range, so they obviously aren't ignoring locos with pantographs completely. I hope they will improve the 91 and Mrk4 DVT in 2017.

[Revolution Mike]

Basically, if the current 91 etc has paid for itself and continues to bring in revenue, I'd appreciate a statement why an entirely retooled set isn't a viable business proposition.

You can't regurgitate the oft bandied "there's no rtp ole", "electrics don't sell", because you wouldn't be punting this current sub standard stuff out at top drawer prices.

 

Actually you can regurgitate the oft bandied reasons *sometimes*.  In this case a (reasoned) guess is that there is little business case for Hornby to re-invest in new tooling. They know what the current sales* are and they have a decision to make between carrying on flogging existing tooling or investing 10s of thousands of pounds on new tooling - I don't blame them for picking the safe option. In their situation I would do the same and if I had money to invest in tooling then I would invest in new tooling for something completely new eg IEP.

 

Cheers, Mike

 

* yes, I know that sales might be higher if they produced a new model.

[MGR Hooper!]

Hornby are doing a class 71 in the 2016 range, so they obviously aren't ignoring locos with pantographs completely. I hope they will improve the 91 and Mrk4 DVT in 2017.

 

Or possibly 2018...