mjkerr Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 First Group and Virgin Trains have clashed again, this time on the East Coast Soor plooms! First Group have (finally) announced they have made another Open Access Application on the East Coast Main Line Serving Kings Cross, Stevenage, Newcastle, Morpeth, and Edinburgh They claim they are competing for airline passengers, they make NO mention of rail competition edit : Sorry, missed out Newcastle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 10, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2015 What a great idea - like it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium HillsideDepot Posted March 10, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 10, 2015 From First Group's web-site: New London-Edinburgh rail plans revealed 10 Mar 2015 FirstGroup proposes low fares operation to capture market share from air travel FirstGroup, the leading transport operator in the UK and North America, is developing plans for a new service offering great value fares between London, North East England and Edinburgh. As part of this process, the Group recently submitted a formal track access rights application to the Office of Rail Regulation who will consider the proposals alongside an industry consultation over the next few weeks. If given approval, FirstGroup’s new open access operator will run several trains a day from London King’s Cross to Edinburgh, via intermediate stations at Stevenage, Newcastle and Morpeth. Passengers would benefit from low fares, free Wi-Fi and onboard catering, all offered in one high-quality class of travel on brand new, state of the art rolling stock comparable to other trains being introduced on the route. If successful with the application it is planned that the new services will be introduced from 2018. The service is designed specifically to encourage travellers to switch from air to rail as currently two thirds of journeys between the two capitals are made by plane. FirstGroup will introduce fares that are highly competitive with budget air carriers and persuade many passengers to and from London to make the greener switch to rail. Stevenage station in the South East is close to Luton and Stansted airports, and Morpeth station is close to Newcastle airport, and serving these stations will help potential air travellers consider rail as an option. FirstGroup already has extensive experience running an open access operation on the route. First Hull Trains regularly receives amongst the highest customer satisfaction scores in the country – scoring 96 per cent in the Spring 2014 National Passenger Survey. Since it started services in 2000 the open access operator has filled a vital gap in the market, making 90 journeys a week between London and Hull and transporting more than 800,000 people annually – a ten-fold increase since inception. FirstGroup also operates services to Newcastle and Edinburgh through its other rail franchises. Commenting, Tim O’Toole, FirstGroup’s Chief Executive said: “These innovative plans will give customers travelling between London, the North East of England and Edinburgh an attractive alternative to flying. We hope to entice passengers away from budget airlines through our low fares and high-quality trains. Open access operators can really add value and create passenger loyalty by serving niche markets. Our current company First Hull Trains remains an exceptional example of how passengers can benefit from this type of operation. We have put our compelling case to the ORR and we are looking forward to hearing the outcome of our application.” Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Be interesting to see how they would get around accusations of ORCATS raiding Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesysmith Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Does anybody else think this is a way to use either the expensive IEP before they get the wires up down GWR way, or a way for first group to use the HSTs that first bought outright? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted March 10, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 10, 2015 Does anybody else think this is a way to use either the expensive IEP before they get the wires up down GWR way, or a way for first group to use the HSTs that first bought outright? It mentions a single class so possibly not (unless they can be easily reconfigured). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted March 10, 2015 Author Share Posted March 10, 2015 First Group have been looking at this option since about 2012 There are several documents on the ORR website, which basically outline refusal for a service between Kings Cross and Edinburgh The first refusal was the lack of capacity, as by 2018 IEP will be in place, but First Group hadn't outlined what rolling stock they would use of equal performance capabilities The second refusal was overlap with existing rail services and the impact to passenger numbers and franchise (oh dear, that DfT requirement again, also suggesting ORCATS raid) This latest application does not appear to have been refused, but I have no idea where they will obtain this rolling stock from However, as suggested it could be the wholly owned HSTs reduced in size to improve performance Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 10, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2015 Be interesting to see how they would get around accusations of ORCATS raiding I think their stopping points would do a lot to mitigate those sort of accusations by missing out every station between Stevenage and Newcastle and thus not taking on the cash cows such as Peterborough and York. Obviously there could be an ORCATS impact at Stevenage and, more so, Newcastle but Morpeth is hardly likely to cause a stir although Edinburgh might. Overall I think it is quite an innovative idea and clearly it does aim at the airline market as well as the overall market. It would also be interesting if they went for HSTs although the wording of their press release makes me doubt that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted March 10, 2015 Author Share Posted March 10, 2015 Apologies, I too had assumed it was going to use their own wholly owned HSTs, then refurbished The plan is to place an order as soon as the Application is approved (due April 2015) Based on the Class 390, 5 coach sets Unusual that First Class is not included Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Railway Gazette article at http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/firstgroup-targets-air-passengers-with-london-edinburgh-open-access-proposal.html says (my bold) ...free wi-fi and onboard catering in ‘one high-quality class of travel on brand new, state-of-the-art rolling stock comparable to other trains being introduced on the route.’ These would be five-car electric trainsets operating at 200 km/h with ‘performance characteristics that will as a minimum match’ the Class 800/801 rolling stock currently being built by Hitachi for use by franchised operator Virgin Trains East Coast. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted March 10, 2015 Author Share Posted March 10, 2015 The ORR Application has a lot more detail but can still be amended / updated I suspect the reference to Class 390 is due to the two previous applications being from a few years ago (when IEP was just some letters before a Class had been allocated) Journey time Kings Cross to Edinburgh is quoted as 4 hours 34 minutes during CP5 and 4 hours 19 minutes during CP6 I was rather scepticle about Stevenage and Morpeth, and the motives The application suggests the rail service will compete with air travel, between London and the North East, but using Stevenage and Morpeth suggests attracting passengers from these airports for onward travel instead I wonder if our friends in Scotland (as we know they do talk to each other) drew this up in order to resolve the Competition issue surrounding VTEC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Just for clarity, I wasn't disagreeing with mjkerr's 390, only adding some detail from another source. I reckon a 390 variant would still count as state of the art. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jivebunny Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Most of that was mentioned in HillsideDepot's post further up. I don't understand the suggestions of HSTs being used - surely stock built in the 70s can't be described as "brand new, state of the art" and "comparable to other trains being introduced on the route". Will be interesting to see how this develops though. JB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium DavidLong Posted March 10, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 10, 2015 I seem to recall that one of the previous applications featured a digital impression of a Pendolino in a rather fetching shade of apple green . . . David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfsup Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 I seem to recall that one of the previous applications featured a digital impression of a Pendolino in a rather fetching shade of apple green . . . David That was Arriva's GNER / GNWR Proposals since thrown out on the west coast though. I wonder if this could be the long mooted High Speed CAF units First were at some stage reportedly ordering for the West Coast franchise before it was cancelled. They were expected to be about 5/6 Car afterall. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB-AU Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/main-line/first-group-proposes-open-access-london-edinburgh-service.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesysmith Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 If they had 5 or 6 coach mini pendo's, and the order was combined with some for the WCML, there could be a useful size to get a manufacturer interested, and if timed right it could also be used for the hull trains operation. If the tilt was left in place, with suitable ballises fitted on the ECML, you could have the situation of the open access operator having the faster trains which would also be cheaper to lease then the franchised operator. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted March 11, 2015 Author Share Posted March 11, 2015 The latest Track Application by First Group (ECTL) to ORR is now available : http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/17359/s17-east-coast-trains-s17-application-form.pdf Decision by Network Rail due by 08 April 2015 If successful next stage for consultation As I suspected, our friends in Scotland have been in discussion The wording on Page 4 clearly suggests discussions have already taken place with VTEC to complement their existing service Morpeth would be a new station stop and with services calling at Stevenage this would allow some VTEC services to miss this stop out There is also a suggestion to link to the existing TransPennine Express rail services at Newcastle, thus removing the need to change at York, and this makes sense now One improvement is a proposed : Kings Cross 05:25 (roughly) Newcastle 08:45 (roughly) Edinburgh 09:55 (roughly) edit : Departure time for Kings Cross incorrect, journey time 4 hours 30 minutes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purley Oaks Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 Wow! 3hrs 30minutes certainly is an improvement. The fastest train now is the 4-hour 0540 ex-Edinburgh only stopping at Newcastle. It takes three and a half hours flying between Edinburgh and LHR or LGW, city-centre to city-centre. Very few VTEC ex-Edinburgh trains stop at Stevenage; 1630, 1700, 1731 (ex-Aberdeen 1452) and 1830. Mal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jivebunny Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 Wow! 3hrs 30minutes certainly is an improvement. The fastest train now is the 4-hour 0540 ex-Edinburgh only stopping at Newcastle. Where are you seeing that? First Group's application states: The train service proposed is as follows: • London King’s Cross to Edinburgh with journey times between four and four and half hours • Every service will call at Newcastle and Morpeth with some services also calling at Stevenage (on a pick up and set down only basis to cater for the northbound market) • Five services per day spread throughout the day in each direction, seven days a week • Journey times of between four and four and a half hours between Edinburgh and London (stating the obvious really, considering the first bullet point) JB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purley Oaks Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 Where are you seeing that? First Group's application states: JB Hi JB In mjkerr's post 18 above: "One improvement is a proposed : Kings Cross 06:20 (roughly) Newcastle 08:40 (roughly) Edinburgh 09:50 (roughly)" It does look too good to be true! Mal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phatbob Posted March 11, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 11, 2015 If they had 5 or 6 coach mini pendo's, and the order was combined with some for the WCML, there could be a useful size to get a manufacturer interested, and if timed right it could also be used for the hull trains operation. If the tilt was left in place, with suitable ballises fitted on the ECML, you could have the situation of the open access operator having the faster trains which would also be cheaper to lease then the franchised operator. Surely a baby Pendolino would be a "Pendobambino"? I agree that some Pendobambinos on the WCML would be welcome as a replacement for Supervoyagers running all the way under wires and as multiple units that could be used as pairs to split / join en-rioute to save valuable paths on the mainline. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakydoke Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 It takes three and a half hours flying between Edinburgh and LHR or LGW, city-centre to city-centre. Most passengers travelling on such long distance domestic routes, whether by rail or air, are not travelling city centre to city centre. They are mostly travelling home to city centre, or v.v. ; or home to a non-city centre destination, or v.v. Home being anything from inner suburban, through outer town/city areas to the surrounding hinterland. If wanting to travel city centre to city centre, flying LCY to EDI usually takes between 2hrs 30mins and 2hrs 55mins, depending on the choice of surface transport at either end. For the majority not originating or destined at/for a central city location, at the London end, BA offer a choice of 3 airports, LHR, LGW & LCY, with additional flights by the LoCo operators available from Luton and Stansted. Rail has the disadvantage of single central city terminus, apart from a few limit stations just north of the capital. Both modes of transport have their pluses and minus', according to the passenger's own needs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jivebunny Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 Hi JB In mjkerr's post 18 above: "One improvement is a proposed : Kings Cross 06:20 (roughly) Newcastle 08:40 (roughly) Edinburgh 09:50 (roughly)" It does look too good to be true! Mal Ah yes, I hadn't noticed those timings. That does seem incredibly optimistic - the current IC225 Flying Scotsman service takes exactly four hours from Edinburgh to London, with only a stop at Newcastle. I'm not sure how they're going to shave a whole 30 minutes off the journey time without massive upgrades to the infrastructure. To cover the 275 miles from London to Newcastle in 140 minutes would require the train to maintain an average speed of 117mph, which is very high considering the various speed restrictions along the route (try doing 117mph through York!) Surely a baby Pendolino would be a "Pendobambino"? I agree that some Pendobambinos on the WCML would be welcome as a replacement for Supervoyagers running all the way under wires and as multiple units that could be used as pairs to split / join en-rioute to save valuable paths on the mainline. IIRC the couplers on the 390s are designed for emergency use only and Alstom were pretty unhappy about Virgin using them on a daily basis for drags etc, although presumably if First were to get new stock it would be designed and configured for this sort of use. I wonder what the acceleration would be like on a 390 if you took the non-powered trailers and the buffet out and just kept the powered vehicles? JB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold JohnR Posted March 11, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 11, 2015 Certainly First were proposing baby-Pendolinos in their West Coast bid, and I assume would be familiar with the characteristics to propose their use on the East Coast. ISTR another open access operator was planning on using full length pendolinos for a 3hour 30min London - Edinburgh non stop service? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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