HST buffets

[keefer]

I thought only first class was tinted?

All saloon windows were tinted, whatever class - double glazed with 'spectrafloat' tinted coating on the outer pane. This includes the small corridor-side windows in the TRUB and TRSB.

The windows behind the kitchen/buffet areas were opaque white (as were the small corridor-side windows on the TRUK)

Door droplights, however were untinted.

[sub39h]

Brilliant keefer, thank you. I'm probably going to follow Jim Smith-Wright's method of filing down the window frames but preserving most of the livery, adding new Shawplan frames and then just respraying the grey band. This way it should be a fairly simple conversion and I'm able to get rid of those moulded door lock lights at the same time.

 

I don't suppose anyone has compared the Shawplan frames vs the Southern Pride ones and could give me some advice on which to go for?

Edited March 16, 2015 by sub39h

[45125]

All saloon windows were tinted, whatever class - double glazed with 'spectrafloat' tinted coating on the outer pane. This includes the small corridor-side windows in the TRUB and TRSB.

The windows behind the kitchen/buffet areas were opaque white (as were the small corridor-side windows on the TRUK)

Door droplights, however were untinted.

Body lights were often put in the wrong way round giving the impression that thy were not tinted........

 

Al Taylor

[sub39h]

Hi again guys

 

I had presumed from the discussion and my research that the TRSBs had ended their days in the Eastern Region in the 80s but I've come across a photo of an East Coast branded TRSB!

 

http://shed83a.smugmug.com/CoachingStock/Mk3-HST/Mk3-TRSB/18325547_nq25H5/1411040129_9jbSMNP

 

Many thanks to the contributor.

 

Is this coach a TRB that has come from the WR after privatisation, or did ER continue using TRSBs after the introduction of the TRFB?

[Flood]

40420 was one of the ex Virgin Cross-Country coaches that would have been spare after 2002.

 

After 1985 the Eastern no longer used TRSBs (when the TRUKs were removed). The Cross-Country sets all had TRSBs and whilst they were originally Western Region based after about 1986/87 regional letters were not used on the coaching stock anyway. In 1987 all but two Cross-Country sets were at Laira, the other two at Neville Hill. By 1992 the Cross-Country sets were split between Craigentinny, Laira and St Phillips Marsh.

 

So the move to East Coast would have happened after privitisation but the coach didn't, strictly speaking, come from the Western Region.

[45125]

40420 was one of the ex Virgin Cross-Country coaches that would have been spare after 2002.

 

After 1985 the Eastern no longer used TRSBs (when the TRUKs were removed). The Cross-Country sets all had TRSBs and whilst they were originally Western Region based after about 1986/87 regional letters were not used on the coaching stock anyway. In 1987 all but two Cross-Country sets were at Laira, the other two at Neville Hill. By 1992 the Cross-Country sets were split between Craigentinny, Laira and St Phillips Marsh.

 

So the move to East Coast would have happened after privitisation but the coach didn't, strictly speaking, come from the Western Region.

40805 came to the across from the ICML in the  set that is now EC64.

[sub39h]

Thanks again Flood for such a comprehensive answer.

I'm modelling 1988ish to 1992ish so my XC rake would be allocated to Laira or NH. Would coaches that had not been resprayed still have had their region prefixes removed? I have seen a picture of an XC set in 1989 which is made up of an Exec DMB, Swallow DMB and all blue/grey coaches (with the exception of one of the TSOs, which is either in Exec or Swallow - can't tell from the photo). There's something about the patchwork livery that appeals to me so I was thinking of modelling something similar. I am acquiring some Hornby blue/grey Mk3s with WR prefixes to add a little variety to my ER stock. However if it doesn't particularly matter then I'll just get whichever coaches I find cheap rather than looking for WR ones. 

Also what was the typical composition of an XC HST fleet? Did they vary between depots and the destinations they served?

Edit: I think it's DMB/TGS/TSO/TSO/TSO/TSO/TRSB/TFO/DMB

Edited March 29, 2015 by sub39h

[tiger]

This coach was originally TRSB 40420, but was converted into a TRFB and renumbered 40805 (with a larger kitchen and only 3 windows worth of saloon seating) as part of "Project Rio" in 2003. The Project Rio conversions and refurbishment took place on a tight budget, so the external window arrangement was not substantially changed - at a glance the window layout looks exactly the same as a TRSB. In fact, the large saloon window closest to the kitchen/buffet is panelled and painted over in the bodyside colour.

This window layout is more obvious in Rio TRFBs painted in FGW blue such as this one:

 

 

Hope this helps. There have been lots of other HST trailer conversions post-privatisation, resulting in substantial changes to the vehicle window arrangement, but in this case the TRSB origins are obvious.

Cheers

Tom.
 

Hi again guys

I had presumed from the discussion and my research that the TRSBs had ended their days in the Eastern Region in the 80s but I've come across a photo of an East Coast branded TRSB!

http://shed83a.smugmug.com/CoachingStock/Mk3-HST/Mk3-TRSB/18325547_nq25H5/1411040129_9jbSMNP

Many thanks to the contributor.

Is this coach a TRB that has come from the WR after privatisation, or did ER continue using TRSBs after the introduction of the TRFB?

Edited March 30, 2015 by tiger

[sub39h]

That would explain why Hornby released an RFM with the unbranded Virgin Mk3s - I'm guessing they wanted it to represent a TRSB like the blue/grey one does

[Flood]

I have seen a picture of an XC set in 1989 which is made up of an Exec DMB, Swallow DMB and all blue/grey coaches (with the exception of one of the TSOs, which is either in Exec or Swallow - can't tell from the photo).

Also what was the typical composition of an XC HST fleet? Did they vary between depots and the destinations they served?

 

Edit: I think it's DMB/TGS/TSO/TSO/TSO/TSO/TRSB/TFO/DMB

The consist is bang on. Strictly speaking HST trailers never carried the 'O' so they were just TS and TF but that's just me being picky! All the XC sets regardless of the depot were always the same consist (excluding emergency replacements).

 

There were in fact four XC sets at NL until May 1988 (the Platform 5 book missed two of them out!). From May 1988 3 sets went back to Laira and the fourth had its TRSB swapped with a TRFB and a spare first added in making it a normal East Coast set. The TRSB went to Bounds Green as a spare.

 

I've tried to identify the piebald set you describe. I too have seen the photo on here somewhere (I'm pretty sure Robert Carroll posted it) but looking through depot allocations I can't identify the coaches as XC ones at the moment. I seem to remember an East Coast set being diagrammed to the West Country in the Summer of some timetables - this may be what is in the photo. I really don't know for sure.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Flood

[sub39h]

http://www.miac.org.uk/worcs1985.html

 

9th photo down - credited to Pete Wilcox

[keefer]

Robert Carroll's pics of buffer-fitted swallow PC reading a mostly b/g XC set (or were they still called NE-SW or CrossCountry sets at this time?), with a normal swallow PC on the back

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/3051285994/in/set-72157603648710190/

 

(Next pic shows the other end)

Edited March 30, 2015 by keefer

[Gwiwer]

I watched the first ECML HST sets cruise through Harringay every morning for a few months while waiting for my (often cancelled) all-stations-to -Moorgate equally new class 313.  Some had twin catering cars and with the seating branded as second / standard at the southern end / first class section at the north.  This was about the time of the Penmanshiel Tunnel collapse which resulted in lengthy diversions for Anglo-Scottish workings but they always came through the right way round.  Full advantage must have been taken of the layout around Newcastle to ensure no reversals were necessary or that if a set was reversed it was "turned" on its way back.

 

I remember the different look of the "Pullman" sets which had TRUKs and eventually managed a trip on one.  On that occasion for what ever reason the only catering vehicle in the set was the kitchen car meaning buffet service had to be provided from the tiny fold-down table-top across the kitchen doorway - there was no buffet counter at all.

 

I would have said Western sets always had the catering car with seats adjacent to the TF as they too were first-class seated and ran as TRFK even when designated "Unclassified".  Photographic evidence above proves otherwise however but might have been an exception to the rule.

 

Cross Country sets had standard class seats in the buffet car which was thus marshalled the other way round.  In other words the seating in the catering car was normally marshalled adjacent to its matching fully-seated vehicles with the "London" sets having the ca the opposite way round to the cross country ones.

 

Exceptions occurred however.

[jonny777]

This photo, taken as late as 1987, shows that some WR HST sets must have had the 2nd class seat facing buffets for rather longer than we thought.

 

http://www.hondawanderer.com/43022_Circourt_1987.htm

 

 

 

EDITED: I wonder if the buffets remained that way on the 7 car trailer sets, but had been turned on the 8 car ?

Edited March 31, 2015 by jonny777

[sub39h]

Why does the HST in the link directly above me have that formation? It's missing a TS and has an extra TF?

[Siberian Snooper]

Why does the HST in the link directly above me have that formation? It's missing a TS and has an extra TF?

 

The set only appears to be missing a TS. Normal Western region sets are  of 8 coaches plus the two power cars. PC,TF, TF ,Buffet, TS, TS, TS, TS,TS,PC.

I wonder if the missing TS is being modified into a TGS.

[sub39h]

I thought WR sets only had one TF? Or is that just XC rakes?

[jonny777]

No, WR sets have always had two TFs.  In fact the early 2+7 sets had only 4 TS coaches as can be seen here (I have posted this photo before).

 

 

 

Only XC sets had one TF.

[Glorious NSE]

No, WR sets have always had two TFs.  

 

True until last year I think, when FGW started converting TFs to TSs, they now mostly (all?) have only one.

[jonny777]

Yes, sorry, I should have added that detail. IMO it was a modification long overdue.

 

How many times did we watch 2+8 sets go by with 2nd class full to overflowing while the 1st class section was not even half full? Nice for 1st class passengers, but not particularly sound economics. Even the discounting of 1st class advance fares did not appear to halt the number of empty seats being transported up and down the GWML, especially on the off peak half hourly Bristol services.

 

(Mind you, and O/T, that was nothing compared to the amount of empty first class seats being whizzed up and down the WCML on the pre-privatisation Birmingham services).

[The Stationmaster]

True until last year I think, when FGW started converting TFs to TSs, they now mostly (all?) have only one.

I think so although at least one has been converted to a compo - resulting in a section of seemingly unused Standard Class between the First and the (converted to) small buffet counter.  I do wonder what is happening in the peaks with these conversions as the 1st was always full east of Didcot/Reading on most train.  Equally during the busier season on the West of England the 1st is very often full on the trains at the most popular (i.e. useful) times.  

But if it suits DafT to hit revenue rather than pay for new coaches then so be it.

[Glorious NSE]

Yep, sorry the "commuter" sets with the mini buffets should be getting one of their TF converted to a TC (46xxx) - meaning all sets should end up with roughly a coach and a half first (the other sets having just under half a car of first in the buffet) - i've not managed to catch one of them yet...it does look really odd externally with the first class stripe stopping then restarting for the buffet counter!

[Bomag]

The set only appears to be missing a TS. Normal Western region sets are  of 8 coaches plus the two power cars. PC,TF, TF ,Buffet, TS, TS, TS, TS,TS,PC.

I wonder if the missing TS is being modified into a TGS.

 

The TGS were all new build. WR 253s were 7 coaches, when TGS were introduced one TS got bumped instead of extening the sets. Later on they were extended to 8 cars but only after they stoped being considered DMUs. If you look at the set formations for 1985 onwards you can see the impact of this with some coaches being in number order with an outlier normally next to the buffet.

[keefer]

The twin dining sets were like that at first, kitchen car next to the first class but with the buffet car 'inside' the second class coaches. Not sure when they changed it to having the two dining coaches together, with the 2 seating sections adjoining.

EDIT : flood mentions this earlier on as happening around 1980/81

Just for info, there's a pic dated April 1980 in Michael Mather's 'Railways of Fife' of an Abdn-KX HST with the 2 diners together.

[Chris64B]

Holy thread resurrection Batman!

 

Hi all,

 

Having fitted lighting to some of my BR blue/grey HST coaches, I'm painting the interiors to add a bit more detail. I've found some useful threads and a couple of photos on the normal first class and standard class interior colours (orange and blue respectively) but I'm stuggling with the interior colours for the TRUB restaurant-buffet car. I found a great photo of the buffet area - see here (you might need your sun glasses ): http://locomotive.wikia.com/wiki/File:Original_buffet_on_hst.jpg but can anyone confirm what colour the seating would be in the rest of the carriage? I can't find a picture anywhere!

 

Many thanks,

Chris