Hornby ceasing to provide free review samples

[chris p bacon]

  So it IS true then.

I would of guessed that there would be a 'relationship' between the media and manufacturer's as in any business.

 

What Chris didn't say but you have taken as read is that it is one that is detrimental to the purchaser.

 

Try looking on the positive side for a change, it's actually quite nice here......   

[Andy Y]

In response to Andrew Carters comments on the lack of any reference to the new policy by Hornby regarding review samples on the RMWeb, I believe this is down to censorship by the RMWeb on anyone who raises the subject.  I know someone who has raised this issue on the RMWeb in two areas and both e-mails or the new topic has not appeared.[/size]

I would like to clarify that there has been no censorship of the subject matter on here; no-one has posted any topics on posts on the matter which have not appeared.

 

I do know who the writer is and their ID on here so I would like to suggest they stop trying to cultivate conspiracy theories elsewhere on the internet or indeed on here.

 

I'm off to the moon to shoot a president now. 

[PaulRhB]

Inna double decker bus

[PaulRhB]

I know that Continental modeller has relied on shops for review samples for years as they always credit the source if that's the case. The only problem for magazines is the batches that sell out before they hit the shops. I've found reviews excellent and at the end of the day we have t'internet for the good, bad and downright bizarre reviews

The best decoder fitting review ever . . .

[railsquid]

Can I just dive into the debate and link to this January 1964 Railway Modeller editorial?

[The Stationmaster]

 

Whilst I would normally not comment on another manufacturer’s section of this forum, since this thread has included references to reviews of Bachmann products then I trust the information below will be of interest. I am posting purely from a Bachmann perspective as it would be unprofessional of me to comment for any other reason.

 

Bachmann only issue press releases when new products are announced. These give basic information on the prototype, examples of which can be found in various threads in the Bachmann section which Andy has posted since I joined the company back in 2006. We also provide quarterly updates on the various development stages of all of our products in the Bachmann Times (the magazine of the Bachmann Collectors Club) which is also sent to all the model railway media including RMWeb, so Editors can see what is in production and plan accordingly, knowing that within the next three months the model has a pretty good chance of  landing in their office.

 

We send out review samples of new products to all the model railway press (including those with specific specialist interests e.g. N Gauge Society Journal) who only receive items that are relevant to them. We include a comprehensive information sheet, a copy of the latest one being reproduced below, which shows the comprehensive information Richard and I collate for them. I am sorry Chris Leigh did not get the information we provided in the Model Rail package – he should not have had to look up the RRP for himself as it is provided on the document supplied to every Editor with the shipment.

 

Bach_List.jpg

 

I would like to reassure readers of RMweb that Bachmann will continue to provide review samples to the recognised media. We welcome their feedback.

 

What is perhaps not recognised is that the model railway media are recording history as it is being made. There are many with an interest in the history of our hobby and also what this forum terms as collectable/vintage (with its own devoted section). In the years to come the reviews of Chris Leigh etc. will be invaluable to them

 

I think this comes nearer to explaining Hornby's action than awe have heard from them so far.  If you are going to supply review samples then do so effectively and in a professional manner - if your marketing department or employee knowledge base isn't up to it then it is obviously going to cost you more to do so and the cost then goes far beyond the cost (to the manufacturer) of a model as it requires time and effort and that costs more than models.  It is, perhaps, once again part of the seemingly confused face which Hornby seem to currently present to its retailers and customers in the UK model railway market;  I come back to - too busy watching the numbers to grasp the full details of the game and walk the talk.  Perhaps the development folk do take notice (it certainly looks as if they are) while the marketeers have their eyes far too fixed on those numbers and £ signs?

[Vistisen]

I wonder what the reaction would be if Hornby had just announced that they were going to START sending free review samples to a load of reviewers. Oh no wait, I know what would be the result: Massive frothing about Hornby strangling all those poor small companies who could not afford to do that sort of thing, spiced up  with various subtle ( 'sublte' as with a baseball bat) accusations that they were doing it to get biased reviews.

[Ozexpatriate]

It is, perhaps, once again part of the seemingly confused face which Hornby seem to currently present to its retailers and customers in the UK model railway market;  I come back to - too busy watching the numbers to grasp the full details of the game and walk the talk.

In my formative days, (during which the hurly burly of local state politics was more tumultuous than normal) the Premier used to respond to reporters asking questions he thought impertinent* with his stock answer of "Don't you worry about that", which, I note, did little to decrease the tumult in the press or the opposition.

 

* Pretty much any question other than whether he enjoyed his wife's baking.

 

Hornby can't quite pull off explanations like that, but nor have they demonstrated the art of communicating difficult messaging where it is hard to balance transparency with airing all the dirty laundry. The consequences are messages that sound hollow.

 

Regarding the following: 

Passion

 

I am in no doubt we enjoy extraordinary passion for our iconic brands but it is essential we build on that strength by communicating it effectively to our consumers. The brand teams are broadening our engagement with our enthusiasts who increasingly wish to access the brands through multiple channels. The consumer will decide how they wish to interact with our brands and we must play our part by providing simple and effective multi-channel options, backed up by excellent product choice and customer service.

(His emphasis) - November 13, 2013

 

My suggestion is that anyone who has opted to purchase a few shares of Hornby (they are not very expensive) might look for the opportunity to send a letter to the office of Mr. Canham (Chairman) or Mr. Richard Ames (Chief Executive) and suggest that material improvements in "communicating effectively to customers" would help, lest brand strength be further eroded.

[Ozexpatriate]

As a follow up to my previous post, I'd like to point out where Hornby has stated they are headed.

 

Serving Our Customers

 

The production issues that the Company has faced have not only restricted financial performance, but have also risked the Company's relationship with our channel partners and end users.  This is an extremely important issue, as these are the true fans of the brands.  It is key that we do not take these fans for granted.  With my experience of working in consumer focused businesses, I am making this one of my first key objectives. 

 

In addition to delivering high quality Hornby products, we must be able to inform and communicate with our partners to enable them to continue to support the brands.  This communication will come in many forms, including improvements in trade news, social media and the Company's website.  In recent weeks we have seen a renewed commitment to weekly trade announcements via Corgi News, Hornby News, Airfix News and Scalextric News.  This is all designed to give retail channels and end users an up to date view of new product releases, stock availability and promotional information.  New colleagues, now working in the Social Media team, are focused on providing daily updates and interactions with fans and sharing the information that drives the passion for collecting, modelling and driving our products.

 

The new Hornby UK website, launched in June 2014, is another tool designed to give consumers greater access to Company and product information, as well as new initiatives such as Simon Says - a regular blog of the thoughts of industry and Hornby Grandee Simon Kohler.  All of these initiatives are work in progress, but show a commitment to improving the dialogue and relationship that the Company has with its partners and customers.  The initial feedback has been very encouraging.

 

At the beginning of 2014, the commercial team in Hornby UK underwent a restructure.  This reorganisation was designed to provide clearer lines of commercial responsibility within the product, sales and marketing teams based in Margate and to enable greater focus on the actions necessary to grow the business. In particular, category management and a more analytical approach to our customer relationships will be the drivers of future growth. New roles and responsibilities are now in place, and we will see benefits as a result of improved stock management, sales methods and marketing and promotional communications, flowing through during 2014-15.

June 27, 2014 (My emphasis)

 

In fairness, we see them executing to this strategy. Some of it is every good. I enjoy Mr. Kohler's column and I applaud the attempt they are making with "The Engine Room" blog - these efforts are far more appreciated by me than anything they might do on Facebook.

 

I have to make the observation that there are things that Hornby does that really makes my attachment to the brand feel 'taken for granted'. This is underscored by the notion of "a more analytical approach to customer relationships" which I appreciate from a business standpoint, but wonder what it means in terms of messaging.

[Ronny]

In my formative days, (during which the hurly burly of local state politics was more tumultuous than normal) the Premier used to respond to reporters asking questions he thought impertinent* with his stock answer of "Don't you worry about that", which, I note, did little to decrease the tumult in the press or the opposition.

 

* Pretty much any question other than whether he enjoyed his wife's baking.

 

Hornby can't quite pull off explanations like that, but nor have they demonstrated the art of communicating difficult messaging where it is hard to balance transparency with airing all the dirty laundry. The consequences are messages that sound hollow.

 

Regarding the following: 

(His emphasis) - November 13, 2013

 

My suggestion is that anyone who has opted to purchase a few shares of Hornby (they are not very expensive) might look for the opportunity to send a letter to the office of Mr. Canham (Chairman) or Mr. Richard Ames (Chief Executive) and suggest that material improvements in "communicating effectively to customers" would help, lest brand strength be further eroded.

 

I fear you and Stationmaster are getting rather worked up about a very, very, very tiny issue.

 

The Hornby face I see is a company that's making available many new and exciting products that I'm taking great delight in purchasing. The production problems of the past few years seem to have been mostly overcome and the company is doing OK financially which agurs well for the future.

 

I personally don't give a rat's whether they provide free models for reviews or not. I suspect that 99.9% of their other customers don't either.

[Ozexpatriate]

Ronny, I think you might misunderstand me.

 

The Hornby face I see is a company that's making available many new and exciting products that I'm taking great delight in purchasing. The production problems of the past few years seem to have been mostly overcome

Yes, it's nice to see them turn around. I'd like to see improved quality before being satisfied that production problems are completely overcome, but issues with volume and timeliness are certainly improving.

 

the company is doing OK financially which agurs well for the future.

That remains to be seen. Based on their fire-sale du jour, they clearly want to scrape the bottom of the till for every last penny of turnover before they close their books on Tuesday. It is understandable but has a whiff of desperation.

 

I personally don't give a rat's whether they provide free models for reviews or not. I suspect that 99.9% of their other customers don't either.

Honestly, nor do I. It is in how they communicate that I address my concerns.

[grahame]

the marketeers have their eyes far too fixed on those numbers and £ signs?

Not quite. In my experience, as a former professional and fully qualified marketing manager, it's the 'bean counters' (accountants) that are fixated by the numbers and cash. Marketeers fanticise about dreaming up new routes to market.

 

G.

[PeteScR]

OK, since this one is aimed squarely at me and my blog post, I ought to respond.

"on hold" in this instance is management speak for cancelled. If they won't send samples to a mag with 30k readers any more, they aren't going to do bloggers with 500 . Also, this was after a considerable delay when the promo company had struggled to get responses from Hornby.

As for the "shopping list" - it's what I was asked for. How is it wrong that this is what I submitted? At least I made sure everything on it was in stock first.

.

OK, since this one is aimed squarely at me and my blog post, I ought to respond.

"on hold" in this instance is management speak for cancelled. If they won't send samples to a mag with 30k readers any more, they aren't going to do bloggers with 500 . Also, this was after a considerable delay when the promo company had struggled to get responses from Hornby.

As for the "shopping list" - it's what I was asked for. How is it wrong that this is what I submitted? At least I made sure everything on it was in stock first.

 

firstly, nothing "was aimed squarely at you" AY provided the link to your blog. Your interpretation on what something says or it doesn't say must only be your opinion and that's what you blog is for I take it? It doesn't represent the views of anyone other than yourself.

For example I know for a fact that at least one blogger I know has been in contact with Hornby today over their review of a product supplied under the blogger review scheme. Doesn't sound like cancelled to me

[Bernard Lamb]

As long as Rail Express continue with their reviews then everything's good!

 

It was their infamous review of the Bachmann '37/4' all those years ago which opened my young eyes to realise manufacturers don't always get it right, and in turn made me study the prototype in even more detail...the rest is history, I wouldn't have got the same inspiration from Railway Modeller!

 

It's really not the end of the world and modellers/collectors will continue to use a variety of sources to learn more about the latest releases, be it magazines or the wide variety of forums out there nowadays! I like the Autocar/Top Gear magazine etc style review where the 'review model' is just a press demonstrator and returned to the PR teams after usage, and eventually sold on to the public at a later date.

 

Cheers

James

 

As long as Rail Express continue with their reviews then everything's good!

 

 

You were not around on here when the Heljan 26 first came out I presume.

The response over that episode certainly upset a few folks.

Basically they got upset because people on here picked up points that they missed.

Fortunately, in general, there is a far more welcoming attitude to folks on here doing warts and all reviews. 

I see Chris Leigh has come in for a bit of flack in this thread.

I brought up this point in an area that many people would not have seen.

May I refer readers to the Model Rail review of the K1 were they commented about the use of the B1 tender, a point most other reviews missed.

All praise to them for looking beyond the obvious.

Bernrd

[t-b-g]

But only if the salaried staff member is sitting around doing nothing. In fact, one of the main duties of editorial staff is to write reviews. It is the only way to ensure consistency in what's done, how it's done and how it is reported. In a commercial concern, everything has a cost allocated. Reviews are just as expensive to produce as any other content - in fact more expensive than some because of the amount of time and photography involved. If we wanted to economise we'd publish lots of readers' letters, as they fill space and we don't pay for them. Oh, wait a minute. We dropped the readers' letters page. 

CHRIS LEIGH

 

The salaried staff could very well be editing modelling content and producing a hopefully readable magazine with more modelling articles and fewer pages of pretty much redundant reviews rather than sitting around doing nothing.

 

If that happened, I might start buying them again.

 

For now, the only two I get regularly are MRJ and the new Finescale Review, neither of which carry RTR reviews and are, in my opinion, all the better for that.

 

Tony

[James Makin]

You were not around on here when the Heljan 26 first came out I presume.

The response over that episode certainly upset a few folks.

Basically they got upset because people on here picked up points that they missed.

Ah no afraid I missed all that discussion Bernard, the '26's were all gone before my modelling era so never closely studied the prototypes in great detail with a view to modelling but they do look mighty fine in Trainload Coal!

[Ozexpatriate]

In sales training I was told recently the day of the salesman is in decline, and the catalog even further in decline, the higher profile now is marketing.... People will do their online research and make their decision and really only approach the point of sale once their mind is set....so the glossy brochure and convincing salesman is less prolific as they used to be..

That depends on what you are selling and to whom you are selling. If you mean purchases of commodity products, that are easily shipped in a small cardboard box to individual consumers, I tend to agree.

 

Larger items, like furniture, heavy appliances and cars are not in that space. Catalogues certainly are changing. The automobile industry has long moved past the glossy catalogue to interactive web content but I suspect most car purchases are still made via a sales person. I would be surprised to learn it is different in the UK.

 

Similarly there is value in sales people where some product expertise and advice is important. This is why model shops are still relevant. You can order shoes online or from a catalogue, but they might not fit well. I wouldn't want to buy a suit online.

 

Large purchases by corporations are entirely different from commodity sales and direct sales including complex contractual negotiations between a sales person and a purchasing agent continue to be the primary way of doing business.

[coachmann]

Where magazines score is in the printed content that is there for life on a shelf. That of course hangs on whether the content is worth saving. I threw all my model and prototype magazines out years ago seeing as they dated back to the early 1960s but kept a handful that I regularly refer to for ideas and inspiration. I have some from the 60's containing my own articles, partly for nostalgia and partly to remind me we all started somewhere!

[jonny777]

That depends on what you are selling and to whom you are selling. If you mean purchases of commodity products, that are easily shipped in a small cardboard box, by individual consumers, I tend to agree.

 

Larger items, like furniture, heavy appliances and cars are not in that space. Catalogues certainly are changing. The automobile industry has long moved past the glossy catalogue to interactive web content but I suspect most car purchases are still made via a sales person.

 

 

This is going slightly O/T I know, but sweeping statements are dangerous.

 

As someone who purchased a new car about 9 months ago, I would just say that the only two times that I saw the "sales person" (if that is what he is still called) were to sign the order forms, pay a deposit and make sure that I was happy with the purchase; and the second one was to take delivery of the car.

 

All of my purchase activity was conducted over the internet, although I still received a glossy catalogue in the post whether I needed one or not.

 

I researched and ordered the vehicle online, added the various engine and bodystyle options online, and ticked the various boxes for optional trim and interior extras online as well. As I added or subtracted certain features, the final price varied on the webpage instantly, so that I knew exactly what I was committing myself to.

 

That was it. I pressed 'send' and the order was on its way without any manufacturer's representative intervention at all.

[dibber25]

  So it IS true then.

 

I'm sorry but THAT is just the problem why no review is worth the paper it is written on. We would expect a manufacturer to perform quality control on their product and to not tell us if it failed. We expect a manufacturer to supply a review sample that has been pre-selected and tested as working. But surely we expect a reviewer to be representing the customer and independent. Sure, go back to the manufacturer / shop and request/buy a second example but if it fails then that is part of the review findings and that should be published.

 

On a similar vein, don't all you reviewers talk to one another? Something like "I am reviewing a xyz from abc and my sample doesn't work, how is yours?" Are the commercial interests of the magazine so restrictive that no one knows what another magazine is doing? We as consumers seem to think that every magazine is going to produce a review of the latest xyz.

A truly mind-boggling lack of understanding! What organisation discusses what its doing with its competitors? If we did, we'd have folk like you telling us we were a cartel and that we're all wicked conspirators who are in league with the manufacturers to rip off modellers. Oh, wait, I think that's what you're saying, anyway.

Frankly, I've had enough of this thread. I started out by trying to increase understanding of how things work and why, with regard to new product reviews but there are clearly some on here who have their own view of the world and will not be moved. Whether or not we get free samples from Hornby will make no difference whatever to what the magazines review or how they review it, Those who read and enjoy our reviews will be able to continue to do so. As to those who don't, well it won't affect you, anyway. Over the years I've had every variation of this 'in league with the manufacturers' accusation, including the suggestion that manufacturers 'tweaked' models before they sent them for review, or that they tested them and sent the best ones to the magazines. In the case of the Heljan Clayton - what you're suggesting as revolutionary is pretty much exactly what was done and the problem was indeed mentioned in the review, and I believe in a subsequent issue once the extent of the problem - and Heljan's arrangements for addressing it, had become clear. 

Now, time to go do some further test-running of the 'J15' and Olton Hall - one a free sample, and the other bought, which has been par for the course for the past several years.

CHRIS LEIGH

[Andy Hayter]

I think it's the opposite, it's the manufacturer realising the magazines are no longer the stronger force as they used to be.

Them without the t'internet went to the shop, still goto the shop and always will.

Them with the mag in the mail, still will get it in the mail, though increasingly it is by the email...

However them that buy and read on the move, invariably have smart phones...and so the net...

 

The market has been split and the day of the mag in the mail has shrunk, (steam railway magazine used to have approaching 6 figure circulation 20 odd years ago... Now with multi-competition and different technologies (and a reducing readership by age), it must be surely way off that mark ?

 

Tbh I think mags would do well to embrace technology more... Digital magazines could have digital content for instance.. Why does an advert have to be a picture with text when in the e-age it could be an embedded video ?.. Why can't reviews by the mags be more online, including videos, take actual modeller feedback from forums and the include that as content to the published review for instance ???

 

I used to buy the mags, but forums/ www/ etc give me more, but I could be persuaded back if more content was professionally online, interactive etc, but I'm a digital reader, I don't see me returning to paper.

 

Fyi, as for my demographic, I'm so far from retirement age I can't even see it on the horizon. (Though I do recognise sometimes I'm in a lonely age group for this hobby), but the very fact we are all on this forum means that the elderly age demographic must be somewhat tech savvy enough to find the Hornby website too, Hornby has not only recognised this, but realised that with the odd 'pop up sale' people will rush and return to their website as often as Hornby wants to draw them in.... The cost of this.... Just one good email to a customer list.

A case point.. 1 picture of a buffer beam on Facebook has got Hornby 20,000 views on this forum alone, cost nothing and stole the light off Bachmanns big weekend.. would sending that picture to a half dozen magazines for a column inch achieve the same result as fast and as on such a target date ?

 

 

In sales training I was told recently the day of the salesman is in decline, and the catalog even further in decline, the higher profile now is marketing.... People will do their online research and make their decision and really only approach the point of sale once their mind is set....so the glossy brochure and convincing salesman is less prolific as they used to be..

The key word here is change (I didn't say is dead) some will always not change, but the costs of supporting it need to reflect that change and the changing landscape...

 

 

Interesting take on things and I have to say that once this current generation of senior modellers diminishes in numbers and ceases to be a majority this would be a good take on things and how the market can be developed.

 

As it stands today, that group still forms a serious part of the purchasing power of the hobby.  They therefor need to be properly catered for by the industry.  Those that fail to do so will lose sales.

 

As Hornby continue down their current track of undercutting the model stores on an apparently more and more frequent basis, there will be no model shop for these people to purchase from.  Hastening that decline will only lose Hornby sales opportunities prior to the generation passing on.

 

I am tempted to question whether your company and Hornby happen to use the same external consultants to provide the Marketing Strategy seminars, but I doubt we will ever know which one Hornby engage.

 

I am sure that Hornby think they are doing well by pandering to a younger generation, but they would be well to remember the historic examples of how chasing a market can go badly wrong for you.  Before the advent of Supermarket own-brands, a well known Soda drink  manufacturer (CC) held a 60% market share, with almost all of the remainder being held by one major competitor (P).  Then they had the brainwave of chasing this 40% market share of their competitor by bringing out a new improved version of their product to satisfy the tastes of their competitors customers.  To a fair extent they were very successful;  however in the process they P'ed off (in more senses than one) their 60% current customer base who chose CC over P precisely because it tasted differently to P. 

[ruggedpeak]

Whilst a person will generally take the order for a car, a number of car firms have realised that the 'sales' activity (i.e. convincing the customer to buy their product rather than a competitor's) is done before they reach the showroom via Top Gear, magazine and Internet reviews etc. In fact 'salespeople' were in some cases 'unsalespeople'. As an example the car sales profession in recent research had yet to realise that in many households the female may be the higher earner and/or key decision maker in a car purchase. Despite this there were still plenty of salespeople who would ignore the female if a couple visited the dealership together! Swiss Toni lives on!

 

Certain brands have told staff to facilitate and answer questions but not to actively 'sell' as many people are put off by sales tactics. Studies found many customers are lost by salespeople, even those who had already decided to buy a particular car and needed no selling to. 

 

So if model shops are not seen as key sales route for Hornby, and reviews are not being facilitated, what is their sales and marketing strategy? 

[The Stationmaster]

I fear you and Stationmaster are getting rather worked up about a very, very, very tiny issue.

 

The Hornby face I see is a company that's making available many new and exciting products that I'm taking great delight in purchasing. The production problems of the past few years seem to have been mostly overcome and the company is doing OK financially which agurs well for the future.

 

I personally don't give a rat's whether they provide free models for reviews or not. I suspect that 99.9% of their other customers don't either.

I think you are missing the point Ronny.  I'm not worked up - one way or the other - about review samples but what I do wonder about are the very mixed messages coming from them.

 

We have - as I have said - clear signs that they are trying to get back to where they had been in respect of detail on models; nice positive step from where I'm sitting.

 

Yet at the same time we see their own online outlet pricing stuff way below what they were charging trade customers for the same item a matter of weeks previously and we see their trade margins at a ludicrously low level - so do they care about their retail network or or not, do they care about the relationship it creates between their reps, the retailers, and us?  Actions - it seems - don't quite fit with some of their words = confusion and a mixed message.

 

We have seen, especially in the pre-Christmas period, a serious underselling of their products yet they say one of their greatest strengths is their brand.  If the image of their brand is so important to them why do they undersell it, why did they undersell it again recently with 'Olton Hall'?  Yet again actions might mean more than words - more confusion.

 

They talk about stronger management of and better liaison links with their factories in China yet - again - the facts do not necessarily bear that out (although they are dealing with a dozen factories and it's a big country but oddly a factory which was involved in the production of one long awaited and fully sold to pre-order model claims never to have seen anyone from Hornby yet it has regular visits from other clients.

 

And I remain fairly firm in my view that I reckon they are managing more by judging results in £ signs and numbers rather than the wider areas they have professed to be important to them.

 

So yes - they are making some good stuff once again, supplies are reaching the retail market but as a customer and someone who cares about the future of the company I remain concerned at the apparent lack of coherence in its management of its sales and marketing policies.

[Dunsignalling]

I've read most of this thread, having initially thought that this move was a bad idea but have come round to the opposite position.

 

Assuming that  Hornby don't continue to supply samples direct and just charge for them, the magazines will obtain their samples from retailers. We can then be certain that they are randomly selected 'typical' items and any suspicion that Hornby might specially select or prepare models destined for review is removed.

 

That's good for us as consumers and the credibility of magazine reviews should be enhanced. Once the flak dies down, and assuming that Hornby get/keep their QC up to scratch, I think it will be good for them, too.  

 

The only down side is that reviews will appear after models are released so those unable to inspect them at a bricks-and-mortar retail outlet will be "winging it" somewhat if they want to be first with the latest.

 

John

[ruggedpeak]

As long as model shops can get decent stock of items.............otherwise we'll just be getting reviews of non-selling items!