hayfield Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Just finger prints if you touch it too soon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunnbrikt Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 One last (perhaps patronising, sorry if it is) note of advice; do not feel forced by the very high standards here into doing something you are not comfortable doing. I did this, swithching to P4 for a while largely because of (very amicably applied) pressure from people on here, and didn't get on with it at all. Model to your own spec for your own pleasure and the person who counts will certainly be happy with the results. I think this is some very good advice. I've found that with many other hobbies I've personally tried previously as a newbie I'd always feel forced down the "correct" route which usually was the far more complicated one. After struggling, spending a load of money and not particularly enjoying it you realise that you probably were best to stick to the easier route. Problem with forums for any hobby is that it has a far high concentration of the best user making it look like this complicated route is the most popular when in actuality in the general hobby populace the most popular route is (unsurprisingly) the most popular. Even in the club/exhibition scene I've seen layouts and practices which the forums would denounce as being completely wrong (seen many clubs use track rubbers and even sandpaper on track even though everywhere online it's highlighted as one of the worst things to use for keep track clean long term). Not that the forums are wrong or anything for the advice, just the advice can sometimes make the hobby a little more work than it has to be for most users. Think the best thing to do most of the time is take any advice with a pinch of salt and do what works best for you Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted May 30, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 30, 2015 I understand what you are saying but have a few reservations for example moving up to 0 gauge the cost of points is quite high so it can make sense having a go at making them if you enjoy it fine if not you have only wasted a bit of time. Whereas if you buy them then find you would have been happy building them you would probably have saved the price of a loco. Just because you see others doing things which are not best practice I cannot see that as a recommendation to adopt them. Yes you can use abrasive methods to clean track some people like to see it nice and shiny. But you can be making more work for yourself. I would always advise asking those who build good layouts which run well what methods they use. Do beware of archair critics. Most of what I have learned has been from modellers far more skilled than me. One very skilled modeller had a good attitude when offered advice from others he would test it out. He took the attitude that you are never too old to learn. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunnbrikt Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 Just because you see others doing things which are not best practice I cannot see that as a recommendation to adopt them. Yes you can use abrasive methods to clean track some people like to see it nice and shiny. But you can be making more work for yourself. I do agree with that point (my fault, didn't make it clear in my original post) that track rubbers should be avoided and I personally wouldn't use them due to there disadvantages. If your only someone doing the hobby casually for fun, trying the other methods may more for frustrating or time consuming. Your analogie of the "arm chair critic" and everything else in your post I do completely agree with though and I think it really depends on what your in the hobby for. I would rather pay more to get ready made points instead of making them myself as that's not what I find fun while others it's there favourite part. They may also do the bare basic scenery while for me I'd take far more time on it as it's the part I enjoy most when making a layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 I can understand that if you do not enjoy doing something and can afford to buy ready made/have built items so you can spend your time doing things you like and hopefully are good at. But there are several reasons to have hand built turnouts. Firstly cost, which could either be cheaper than RTR or wanting bespoke trackwork Secondly so that a plan fits the space you have requires non standard units Thirdly you require turnouts which follow British / regional practices and are to 4 mm scale (if you model in 00 gauge) Fourthly, the gauge/scale you require is not supported by the retail companies. Most will have their favourite methods of track cleaning and nothing is lost about reading about them, might even be a good idea to try some or accept the advice not to do something due to the repercussions from said method. One good thing is that many are willing to give advice within our hobby and long may it continue Don't forget there are two ways of doing things, the right way and the wrong way Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 John, actually I do have to disagree with your last sentence. There are frequently multiple right and wrong ways of doing things - the trick is to pick one of the right ways......hopefully by reading of the experiences of those on this and other forums. For this reason it is useful for modellers to explain their failures as well as successes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 Jeff Would you like me to explain the joke!! a clue is the joker Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Sorry, had my serious head on....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Jeff May be my poor sense of humour Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Not at all, I ignored the clue..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 When in doubt, follow the instructions. Even more importantly, when not in doubt, follow the instructions anyway. And two (or more) wrong ways seldom make a right way. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted May 31, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 31, 2015 I think Hayfield makes his own instructions these days Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Don I don't know if that's a dig or compliment. Still I am enjoy exploring differing methods of track building and there is plenty to learn from those who have gone before as well as those pushing new technology. I am more than happy to use building techniques from the past whilst matching them up with modern materials Track building materials have really moved on over the years, and will continue to especially with 3D printing becoming more available. I look for easier methods in building turnouts and crossings as I believe some modellers are becoming more discerning with their track requirements, but have a fear of learning another building discipline Like most folk of my age I started off with SMP kits, but without any contact with other modellers and tried the forerunner of C&L parts K&L. Again with little success. It was not until much later I tried again with track building and have learnt a lot in the past 10 years. I do like to try out differing methods like ply and rivet construction, however as I came to it after using standard plastic chairs on both ply and plastic sleepers I just could not see it as an improvement on a more modern building system. I do admire the work done by others using this method, as whilst being built I can appreciate the skill and effort in producing it. But when its covered in paint and ballast is it any better ? Lets face it, threading small chairs on to a rail and sticking them to some ply or plastic is child's play (I have had a 9 year old doing it at a show). The difficult part is building the common crossings and perhaps filing the switch blades. Now some can afford to buy ready built items, for most they have to build their own. A large proportion of these are happy to make their own turnouts/common crossings using the copperclad construction methods, but are unhappy with the lack of chair detail. The next step is that if you marry both build methods. Taking the best parts from each methods in an attempt to make building turnouts easier. Now when using ply timbers using that logic I could use the rivet method (I do have the tools and parts), I won't for several reasons. One method I would consider is to use thicker timbers and use copperclad timbers through the centre of the common crossing and copperclad spacers to adjust the height of the rail. Vero pins could work with both wooden and copperclad timbers but for me there is too much additional work with this system for me However I am well up for other methods which will push the hobby forward, whilst being of a mind not to frighten off those who do not have engineering skills. We tread a fine line. Perhaps two threads are required one for those with engineering skills (I am not talking about the Vero pin method) and another for those with limited skill sets Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBAGE Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Don I don't know if that's a dig or compliment. Still I am enjoy exploring differing methods of track building and there is plenty to learn from those who have gone before as well as those pushing new technology. I am more than happy to use building techniques from the past whilst matching them up with modern materials Track building materials have really moved on over the years, and will continue to especially with 3D printing becoming more available. I look for easier methods in building turnouts and crossings as I believe some modellers are becoming more discerning with their track requirements, but have a fear of learning another building discipline Like most folk of my age I started off with SMP kits, but without any contact with other modellers and tried the forerunner of C&L parts K&L. Again with little success. It was not until much later I tried again with track building and have learnt a lot in the past 10 years. I do like to try out differing methods like ply and rivet construction, however as I came to it after using standard plastic chairs on both ply and plastic sleepers I just could not see it as an improvement on a more modern building system. I do admire the work done by others using this method, as whilst being built I can appreciate the skill and effort in producing it. But when its covered in paint and ballast is it any better ? Lets face it, threading small chairs on to a rail and sticking them to some ply or plastic is child's play (I have had a 9 year old doing it at a show). The difficult part is building the common crossings and perhaps filing the switch blades. Now some can afford to buy ready built items, for most they have to build their own. A large proportion of these are happy to make their own turnouts/common crossings using the copperclad construction methods, but are unhappy with the lack of chair detail. The next step is that if you marry both build methods. Taking the best parts from each methods in an attempt to make building turnouts easier. Now when using ply timbers using that logic I could use the rivet method (I do have the tools and parts), I won't for several reasons. One method I would consider is to use thicker timbers and use copperclad timbers through the centre of the common crossing and copperclad spacers to adjust the height of the rail. Vero pins could work with both wooden and copperclad timbers but for me there is too much additional work with this system for me However I am well up for other methods which will push the hobby forward, whilst being of a mind not to frighten off those who do not have engineering skills. We tread a fine line. Perhaps two threads are required one for those with engineering skills (I am not talking about the Vero pin method) and another for those with limited skill sets Hello John, Just as you, I have tried many methods of track (mainly point) manufacture. I have suffered many disasters and I am still a long way from achieving a standard and appearance that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 RBAGE One of the most common failings I have seen with those who struggle with turnout building is speed, They want every thing done instantly. A few tips which may help Build them off the layout, much easier doing it at the work bench/kitchen table Make them on a small building board so you can turn them through 360 degrees Be critical of what you make and don't use a part which you are not happy with Test as often as you can, and use straight edges all the time Use gauges (yes I have seen quite a few turnouts built over a plan without checking with a gauge Most importantly enjoy yourself Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted June 1, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 1, 2015 John no dig was intended. What I really meant was having tried others methods and experimented you have worked out your own methods. I have built a turnout using wood for the timbers using mostly plastic chairs but using a small NS slip here and there araldited to the wood and soldered the rail to that. However I found that it was no better than soldering the crossing wing rails assembly onto scraps of etch set at sleeper spacing then aralditing the whole thing onto the timbers and using plastic chairs elsewhwere some can be cut up to add cosmetic ones round the crossing. Using plastic chairs saves all the drilling we used to do with ply and rivet. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Don I was having a bit of fun. You are right the chairs are quite strong in number and even half chairs will hold pieces in place. I now never bother gluing common crossings as the chairs do the work perfectly, I use superglue on the obtuse (K) crossings. In many ways the solvent glued chaired track is stronger that the soldered track in the ply and rivet construction, and does not suffer from expansion and contraction. Good to see you trying differing methods, track building will evolve over time and I think 3D printing may be very useful in the future Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Izzy Posted June 2, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 2, 2015 In many ways the solvent glued chaired track is stronger that the soldered track in the ply and rivet construction, and does not suffer from expansion and contraction. I first tried chairs on ply after great difficulty in getting the rail properly central on the rivet, which meant adding cosmetic chairs was more of a hassle, and quite apart from the tedium of fitting all the rivets in the first place besides drilling the holes for pointwork. Another factor that I encountered was that the rivets could often rotate in the sleeper meaning that gauge variations could occurr with handling both with plain track and pointwork before it was laid. This is something that doesn't generally happen with functional chaired track, but many can't seem to accept that glued chair trackwork can be generally as strong as soldered in most circumstances. The only places I still tend to use rivets or an equivalent in ply sleepers is under the crossing nose/wing rails and at the first chair position on both stock/closure rails past blade slide chairs, not so much for strength but for electrical connection. Izzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 Izzy I think you have summed it up very well, use the correct materials for the job required. Most of all use materials that you are happy with. I to dabbled with riveted track, I still have the presses just in case I need to repair anything. As far as crossings are concerned I am quite happy building them as separate units on thin copperclad strip first, for either ply or plastic sleeper construction I have also built a turnout using selective copperclad sleeper strip, again using thin copperclad strip to raise the rails, soldering the crossing in the manor done with standard copperclad construction but with the addition of chairs where possible. An easier build method and as plastic sleepers are painted anyway you cannot tell the difference. Ply sleepers being stained may be a bit more difficult to match up though Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardswain Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share Posted December 20, 2015 I finally started building turnouts about 6 weeks ago. I've had a huge amount of help, advice and encouragement from people on Templot's forum, where I have been posting my progress.(http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=2781&forum_id=6) I have opted for a combined plywood/pcb construction, and have so far finished 3: They seem to take me 5-7 hours to make, spread over several evenings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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