Merseyrail brake van at Allerton TMD

[ElectroSoldier]

Hey guys Im wondering if somebody can help me with some finer details regarding the old brake vans that were stabled at Allerton TMD in the 1990s and maybe in the 1980s too.

 

I remember the brake vans there from when I was working on the first part of the remodeling of the Speke length of the WCML getting ready for the building of LSP station.

 

There were some old brake vans there, one still wearing the wood brown markings and showing some letters from the post grouping companies (I really cant remember what the letters were, it could have been LMS but I cant remember any more)

But there was at least 1 and maybe 2 Merseyrail livery brake vans there that were used when they took some Merseyrail stock into the depot for work on the wheels.

 

Im wondering if anybody knows what the exact procedure was for the use of them?
For instance what loco was used to haul the 507/508, were did it go to once it left Allerton with the brake van? did the collect them from Hunts cross or were they taken down the Bootle branch from there own depot at Kirkdale? what was the arrangement used, was the van attached to the rear of the 507/508?

 

Any and all info you could give would be great please.

[BrushVeteran]

I take it these are the two beauties you are referring to. 

 

I photographed these on 6th September 1992 and they had just been converted in to Translator vehicles for use with Merseyrail 507/508's. I believe they lasted quite a while and received yellow/black wasp striped ends later on.

I only saw them on the move once, one at each end, being hauled by 31160 at Speke, not so many months after I took these two shots.

[great central]

They were there until 2003-4 at least but gone by 2005 I think. One was just a skeleton (due to the attentions of the locals with matches perhaps?)

[Michael Delamar]

At Edge hill 1980.

 

ROUGH SHUNTED BRAKE VANS AND A FERRY WAGON AT EDGE HILL - SUMMER 1980 - ANDY SPARKS by Michaeldelz, on Flickr

[40044]

Still there in November 2009: https://flic.kr/p/bmwEjf

 

After taking the pic, I moved them to a siding where the scrap man could take them away for scrapping, and that was that.

Edited April 27, 2015 by 40044

[beast66606]

I have a large number of photos of two of these which were due to be scrapped at Ellesmere Port but I managed to be involved in preserving one (don't ask, some wheeler dealing with the scrap men who were very suspicious of everyone) - it went to Nannerch I believe, but what became of it I don't know.

 

[beast66606]

Here's the kit shortly after

 

[GordonC]

was there more than one pair of those brakevan translators? or was the Allerton pair taken to Ellesmere Port for scrapping?

[PhilJ W]

This is the one preserved

http://www.vintagecarriagestrust.org/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=9039

[40044]

was there more than one pair of those brakevan translators? or was the Allerton pair taken to Ellesmere Port for scrapping?

At least 2 pairs. One pair based at Birkenhead which were those taken to Ellesmere Port, and a pair based at Allerton for tripping the stock in from Hunts Cross.

[Jenny Emily]

It's a shame that rail companies don't give first refusal to preserved lines before they scrap stuff. I remember the wagons getting scrapped at Ellesmere port, and they seemed outwardly in reasonable condition. Such a shame to see them destroyed like that. IIRC the contractors had a JCB and hauled the wagons in one long rake to the scrapping area shifting the rake one at a time to their death. I seem to remember there being a load of ZCV TOPEs there too.

[beast66606]

A bit like this ...

 

 

 

There weren't many that escaped me ... I photographed most of the scrappers.

[beast66606]

[ElectroSoldier]

Yeah they are the van Im talking about.
At the time I was working there as a HS on the Hunts cross chord there were more brake vans there, there was one still in the colours of LMS or GWR. I cant remember which it was.

 

I also remember the fire that gutted that one...

 

How were they used exactly?
I remember the Class 08 and Class 31 being there, but Ive not idea what was the chain of events to get a 507/508 onto the depot.
Was it always a move from Hunts Cross? how did the 31 put the brake van behind the 507/508? where did it happen? why did they do it?

[ElectroSoldier]

Do you have any idea what those brake vans are called?

[Mark Saunders]

12 minutes ago, ElectroSoldier said:

Do you have any idea what those brake vans are called?

 

These were LMS brake vans converted to adaptors (often mistakenly called barriers) by removing the buffers and replacing the drawbar/coupling with a Tightlock as on the EMU's allowing them to be moved dead by locomotives!

 

They were painted in Merseyrail livery to match the units, a pair were quite often found at Ellesmere Port yard.

 

Mark Saunders

 

 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Mark Saunders

[ElectroSoldier]

Ive no idea what barriers are. I know what they were used for, its the type of brake van Im looking for as I would like to buy a model of it so I can repaint it into that livery.

[Gibbo675]

12 minutes ago, ElectroSoldier said:

Ive no idea what barriers are. I know what they were used for, its the type of brake van Im looking for as I would like to buy a model of it so I can repaint it into that livery.

Hi Electro,

 

The vans are LMS standard brake vans, Airfix used to make them and since then Dapol have taken over the models production. a search on ebay will shew you what you need for under a tenner if you drop lucky !

You will need two of them as they ran together in a pair.

 

Gibbo.

Edited August 16, 2019 by Gibbo675
Extra info about running in a pair

[ElectroSoldier]

Thank you Gibbo765. I think I just found a pair for 20 quid.

 

I am assuming one end had the same coupling as the 08 shunter and the other the same as the 507/508s ?

 

Also as an extra can you buy the 507/508?

Im not really bothered if its an unpowered model or a motorized train

[Gibbo675]

8 hours ago, ElectroSoldier said:

Thank you Gibbo765. I think I just found a pair for 20 quid.

 

I am assuming one end had the same coupling as the 08 shunter and the other the same as the 507/508s ?

 

Also as an extra can you buy the 507/508?

Im not really bothered if its an unpowered model or a motorized train

Hi Electro,

 

The 507/508 units are available from ebay here:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4mm-Scale-Class-507-508-emu-body-part-kit-now-with-3d-printed-ultra-hd-bodies/362662801018?hash=item5470632e7a:g:8xQAAOSwIORc6u23

 

Should you want the 502 and 503 units they are here:

 

http://www.rue-d-etropal.com/3D-printing/passenger-stock-lms/3d_printed_LMS-cl-502.htm

 

http://www.rue-d-etropal.com/3D-printing/passenger-stock-lms/3d_printed_LMS-cl-503.htm

 

You will be looking at upwards of £180 for a three car set though which will then require bogies and underframe detail. For the 507 / 508 type I would suggest that a Sprinter type chassis could well be adapted as the bogies are similar. The 502 and 503s ran on LMS coach bogies with similar bogies with a deeper frame for the motor units.

 

Gibbo.

 

Gibbo

[Guest JiLo]

On 16/08/2019 at 22:46, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Electro,

 

The vans are LMS standard brake vans, Airfix used to make them and since then Dapol have taken over the models production. a search on ebay will shew you what you need for under a tenner if you drop lucky !

You will need two of them as they ran together in a pair.

 

Gibbo.

Hornby have the moulds for them, and announced an all-new version this year.

 

For the AIrfix/Dapol/Hornby ones, Lanarkshire Modelling Supplies do a detailing kit for them

[ElectroSoldier]

Thanks for all the info, Im not sure if Ill wait for the new vans or not...
The ebay listing looks interesting, it seems I need those parts and then buy 3 coaches to fit the parts to.
I dont mind that as I have no real interest in the 507/508 being able to run as it will always be run DiT.

 

I assume the method used to taking a set into the depot was.

a loco propelled a brake van down to Hunts cross and hooked up to the set then hauled the train into the depot?

 

 

Also I assume the Ellesmere port pair were used to take the trainsets from Ellesmere port to Allerton to have their wheels turned there then tripped back to Ellesmere port rather than taking the stock over the Stock Interchange line?

Edited August 18, 2019 by ElectroSoldier

[Dunsignalling]

28 minutes ago, ElectroSoldier said:

Thanks for all the info, Im not sure if Ill wait for the new vans or not...
The ebay listing looks interesting, it seems I need those parts and then buy 3 coaches to fit the parts to.
I dont mind that as I have no real interest in the 507/508 being able to run as it will always be run DiT.

 

I assume the method used to taking a set into the depot was.

a loco propelled a brake van down to Hunts cross and hooked up to the set then hauled the train into the depot?

Normal operation with loco-haulage of units without "normal" couplings is to attach an adaptor (barrier) van to either end of the consist in case it has to be reversed during its journey.

 

In modern times, any propelling moves that exceed what would be regarded as normal shunting have become extremely restricted.

 

John

Edited August 18, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[ElectroSoldier]

43 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Normal operation with loco-haulage of units without "normal" couplings is to attach an adaptor (barrier) van to either end of the consist in case it has to be reversed during its journey.

 

In modern times, any propelling moves that exceed what would be regarded as normal shunting have become extremely restricted.

 

John

 

The only way to get a van on both ends is to put one into Hunts cross station, call on the 507/508 into the station and then hook it up there, then the 31 could propel either from Allerton TMD or the holding siding that is just west of the bridge.
Either way you are going to have to propel the van into the 507/508 trainset.

You are also going to have to propel the first van into Hunts cross platform.

The only way around it is to do the whole operation on platform 2

[Dunsignalling]

5 hours ago, ElectroSoldier said:

 

The only way to get a van on both ends is to put one into Hunts cross station, call on the 507/508 into the station and then hook it up there, then the 31 could propel either from Allerton TMD or the holding siding that is just west of the bridge.
Either way you are going to have to propel the van into the 507/508 trainset.

You are also going to have to propel the first van into Hunts cross platform.

The only way around it is to do the whole operation on platform 2

I'm not familiar with the location, and I'm assuming the siding to be located at the other end of the station platforms in relation to the TMD, but It's essentially a matter of distance.

 

Moves (particularly of a loco with one vehicle), from an adjacent siding must be treated as shunting otherwise you'd get nothing done. Pushing even one van from further away than absolutely necessary (in this case the TMD) will normally be classified as propelling and either permitted in local signalling regulations or planned and published in notices. Any additional procedures or resources (such as extra ground staff) necessary to ensure safe operation, will be specified in either scenario.

 

It seems likely, therefore, that the loco would have to lead from the TMD, assuming the "special" end of  the van also retains a normal coupling hook, and it will be necessary to run round the van if only one loco is used. Other than places on single lines provided with a passing loop, few passenger-only stations (even big termini) retain run-round facilities these days and the avoidance of propelling is why so many movements get topped and tailed.

 

The presence of two vans at the TMD strongly suggests both are used and, if topping and tailing two vans, the operational sequence becomes straightforward: [1] Loco + van + van + loco from TMD to Hunts Cross [2] split the vans in the platform [3] Leading loco and van to siding. [4] Unit arrives and couples on to van + Loco remaining in platform. [5] Loco + van from siding shunts onto rear of unit, couples up and ready to go.

 

John    

 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Dunsignalling