Merseyrail brake van at Allerton TMD

[Mark Saunders]

The abolition of unfitted trains on the mainline effectively ended movement of stock hauled dead as these are adaptors not translators as they could only supply main air to release parking brakes!

 

The only time I saw them used was for depot use at Allerton but this was about 1994.

 

Mark Saunders

[Steamport Southport]

I used to go past them everyday at one point.

 

One was in a caravan park in Llandrindod Wells. I don't know whether it's still there as nothing is coming up on Google.

 

I thought they were used for taking units to use the wheel lathe as they suffered badly with tyre wear on the Loop Line and needed regular reprofiling.

 

 

 

There was also the LMS liveried diesel shunter stored at the back. Only an empty shell at that point unfortunately. But it's it pity that didn't survive.

 

 

 

 

Jason

Edited August 18, 2019 by Steamport Southport

[ElectroSoldier]

7 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I'm not familiar with the location, and I'm assuming the siding to be located at the other end of the station platforms in relation to the TMD, but It's essentially a matter of distance.

 

Moves (particularly of a loco with one vehicle), from an adjacent siding must be treated as shunting otherwise you'd get nothing done. Pushing even one van from further away than absolutely necessary (in this case the TMD) will normally be classified as propelling and either permitted in local signalling regulations or planned and published in notices. Any additional procedures or resources (such as extra ground staff) necessary to ensure safe operation, will be specified in either scenario.

 

It seems likely, therefore, that the loco would have to lead from the TMD, assuming the "special" end of  the van also retains a normal coupling hook, and it will be necessary to run round the van if only one loco is used. Other than places on single lines provided with a passing loop, few passenger-only stations (even big termini) retain run-round facilities these days and the avoidance of propelling is why so many movements get topped and tailed.

 

The presence of two vans at the TMD strongly suggests both are used and, if topping and tailing two vans, the operational sequence becomes straightforward: [1] Loco + van + van + loco from TMD to Hunts Cross [2] split the vans in the platform [3] Leading loco and van to siding. [4] Unit arrives and couples on to van + Loco remaining in platform. [5] Loco + van from siding shunts onto rear of unit, couples up and ready to go.

 

John    

 

 

 

 

Its about 1.5 miles from the exit signal of the TMD to the buffer stops at the station, the siding is a couple hundred yards closer to the TMD.

 

I know the difference between a shunt move and propelling the train. I know what book to look at to find out if you can do it. I also know there are several options that can be used in order to hook up a trainset to the brakevans Im just not sure what one of the 6 or so options they actually used.

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, ElectroSoldier said:

 

Its about 1.5 miles from the exit signal of the TMD to the buffer stops at the station, the siding is a couple hundred yards closer to the TMD.

 

I know the difference between a shunt move and propelling the train. I know what book to look at to find out if you can do it. I also know there are several options that can be used in order to hook up a trainset to the brakevans Im just not sure what one of the 6 or so options they actually used.

Just found Hunts Cross on Wiki, and now realise it became a terminus, so incoming units presumably passed the TMD before reaching the station, or was there a junction between the two and they came in on a different line?*

 

Without a run-round, which doesn't seem to be present, current regs would normally require T&T working, again straightforward: [1] Loco + 2 vans + loco, TMD to stop blocks at HC. [2] Split formation between vans with rear loco and van to siding. [3] Unit(s) onto loco and van at stop blocks. [4] Loco + van from siding onto rear of unit(s). Move [4] would normally involve a hand signalman (most likely these days, the local MOM) unless there is a shunt or calling-on signal from the siding into the platform that will clear to caution with the platform partially occupied.  

 

However, today's regs will certainly be much more restrictive of propelling than those that applied back in the 80'/90s/early 00s. (We used to regularly propel strings of loaded Seacows on running lines back then!) If this was a common movement pattern, there's also the possibility of local signalling regs that might have simplified things.

 

John 

 

* PS. Got it, finally found my 1988 rail atlas and see that the units would have come in from the Garston direction, via Hunt's Cross West Junction.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[ElectroSoldier]

4 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Just found Hunts Cross on Wiki, and now realise it became a terminus, so incoming units presumably passed the TMD before reaching the station, or was there a junction between the two and they came in on a different line?*

 

Without a run-round, which doesn't seem to be present, current regs would normally require T&T working, again straightforward: [1] Loco + 2 vans + loco, TMD to stop blocks at HC. [2] Split formation between vans with rear loco and van to siding. [3] Unit(s) onto loco and van at stop blocks. [4] Loco + van from siding onto rear of unit(s). Move [4] would normally involve a hand signalman (most likely these days, the local MOM) unless there is a shunt or calling-on signal from the siding into the platform that will clear to caution with the platform partially occupied.  

 

However, today's regs will certainly be much more restrictive of propelling than those that applied back in the 80'/90s/early 00s. (We used to regularly propel strings of loaded Seacows on running lines back then!) If this was a common movement pattern, there's also the possibility of local signalling regs that might have simplified things.

 

John 

 

* PS. Got it, finally found my 1988 rail atlas and see that the units would have come in from the Garston direction, via Hunt's Cross West Junction.

I dont seem to have access to my photobucket account anymore so I cant show you are pictures.

 

If you take a look at NW6003 Sequence 005 Castlefield Jn to Allerton Jn of the LNW SA you can see the track arrangement at the time.
The siding is labelled as DMU spur, it was often used to stable a tamper from Warrington.

The siding can be accessed by a train on platform 2 but not 3 which was the Merseyrail terminus platform, but there was DC rails on 2 but only for the station (it was operationally possible to put a Merseyrail set into 2 to have it terminate, but never done as far as I know)

 

I mentioned the siding as it was a possible way to access the bay at hunts cross with the shortest propel movement, you would access it via platform 2, wait for the Mersey unit to arrive, back out to platform 2, the forward onto the Up & Down Electric line then propel into platform 2 with a call on move.

 

Now whether there is already a class 31 in the bay platform with a brake van or not I dont know, it wouldnt matter because in order to get a class 31 and its brake van onto what will become the front of the train you are going to have to propel into it. Be that with a move from platform to to the rear of the protecting signal for platform on the Up & Down Electric of directly from Allerton TMD I dont know, the platform 2 option is the shortest move but I dont know if it would be allowed.

 

If you watch this youtube video you can see from the start that the SA is wrong with its layout there. at 1;41 you can see the switch that gives access to Allerton TMD from Hunts cross, this is where I am assuming the journey of the class 31 started. earlier you can see the DMU siding that ends just before the Hillfoot Rd over bridge.

 

 

[ElectroSoldier]

11 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

I used to go past them everyday at one point.

 

One was in a caravan park in Llandrindod Wells. I don't know whether it's still there as nothing is coming up on Google.

 

I thought they were used for taking units to use the wheel lathe as they suffered badly with tyre wear on the Loop Line and needed regular reprofiling.

 

 

 

There was also the LMS liveried diesel shunter stored at the back. Only an empty shell at that point unfortunately. But it's it pity that didn't survive.

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

There were a lot of 08 shunters at Allerton in the 80s and into the 90s in the old engine shed. Ive already asked about it on here but nobody seems to know what happened there. I do remember the whole shed being full of them in various states or being repaired though. I wouldnt be surprised if Allerton saw every single 08 in the country at some point there were so many.

[Gibbo675]

6 hours ago, ElectroSoldier said:

 

There were a lot of 08 shunters at Allerton in the 80s and into the 90s in the old engine shed. Ive already asked about it on here but nobody seems to know what happened there. I do remember the whole shed being full of them in various states or being repaired though. I wouldnt be surprised if Allerton saw every single 08 in the country at some point there were so many.

Hi Electro,

 

There were 08's that were used in the Liverpool area in various yards, docks and stations although a lot of 08's were sent to Allerton for repair work that were allocated elsewhere than the Liverpool area, most would arrive and depart by road.

 

Work undertaken would be:

• Re-metaling of axle boxes
• Re-metakking of rod bushes
• Straightening of bent rods
• Power unit overhaul
• Re-tyre of wheels
• Re riveting of horn guides

I used to work at Riley and Son's in Bury and we were sub contractors for most of the above which we did in our works at Bury with the exception of Power unit overhaul and horn guide work which was done on site at Allerton. Re riveting took place with the locomotives up on their Matterson jacks with the wheels out and the air hoses to the rivet hammers attached to the main air tanks of the locomotive if it had a running power unit or another locomotive would be brought along side to provide air if not.

 

Crank shaft grinding of the power units was done by a company called MOSS that had brances in Kendal and Oldham with all other works done by the depot staff.

 

Quite a few 08's ended up cannibalised for spares and then scrapped.

 

Gibbo.