Bachmann Delays...will products ever arrive?

[The Johnster]

Bachmann, perhaps understandably, keep their corporate heads below the parapet on this point, but it does look as if it is a matter of policy for them to behave like this, and presumably they have some reason for it.  It looks bad from a PR aspect, but their reason, whatever it is, obviously trumps this consideration, and they are unlikely to be forthcoming on the subject now, since they never have been before...

 

I suppose one must try to achieve a balance of attitude between the entitled 'gimme now at the originally published price (even if a 3rd party has posted the price and not Baccy themselves), and the doormat 'Baccy know what they are doing and we are lucky to have such brilliant models for which we accept whatever price they deign to charge us'.  We need to understand their problems, but not oversympathise; they need to be called to account on this at every possible opportunity!

[Black 5 Bear]

Disappointing to see that the Class 40 D248 has been delayed from August this year, until August/September 2019.

In it's "as built" condition, this version would surely have been a good seller for this financial year.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Black 5 Bear

[darren01]

What i do not get Hattons announces a P class and bang it in the shop, Bachmann announce a loco and..................   

[The Johnster]

Well, to backtrack on what I said earlier and to be fair to Bachmann, Hatton's can commission from a 3rd party and get away with not announcing it to the rest of us until the model is very close to sale.  The P will have been in the pipeline for a very long time before Hatton's began to market it; part of the game is playing your cards close to the chest so that the competition doesn't second guess you and beat you to the shelves.

 

A commissioner doesn't have the overhead or need to R & D a product, or arrange for it's production in the Chinese subcontracting system, or shipping; he pays the producer to do that for him.  Baccy and the other big manufacturers cannot do this sort of smoke and mirrors trick of appearing to be light on their feet, efficient, and responsive to the market.  Make no mistake, it is an illusion; the model takes the usual amount of time to get to the shelves and the price is still not known until very late in the process, but modelling world at large is unaware of it until the last minute.

 

None of which gets around or explains the undeniable fact that Bachmann are absolutely hopeless at delivering promised models in an acceptable time.  Their rep at the Bristol show made the point that a 94xx is not just a simple box as most people think pannier tanks are, which suggested to me that they may have had problems with this model that they are not going to go into, but delays to modern image releases which are relatively simple in shape compared to a steam outline model are just as bad, so I still don't think this washes as an excuse.  And it is this feeling that things are going on over which a marketing veil has been drawn, that there is an element of duplicity and mendacity here, that is what we find irritating.  It is, IMHO, very bad PR.

[stewartingram]

Because more development had been done on the 'P' before announcement?

 

Stewart

[Chuffed 1]

Perhaps to demonstrate how little confidence Bachmann 's customers (us), have in their pronouncements, when do we imagine the 00 gauge Bulleid coaches will be arriving in the shops?  And does anyone think they were announced early to warn off anyone considering making their versions?

[Black 5 Bear]

Wouldn't it be nice if Hornby stole Bachmann's thunder announcing Bulleid coaches early next year, po with delivery at the end of 2019. I would wager Bachmann won't have these in the shops until about 2021 going on past performance.

[BWsTrains]

Having a soft spot for all the Bachmann steam locos I own, I was disappointed to read of their woes given all their years of success and experience.

 

Seems like they've taken a serious wrong turn somewhere with their development pipeline when elsewhere I read about a large diverse new model project due next year, whose scope is remarkable (if comments there are anything to judge by)

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/133954-class-66-in-oo-gauge-new-announcement/?p=3156477

 

accepting the point made earlier that Hatton's have advantages they can leverage, all the same it sounds like a game-changer and serious wake up call to the likes B and Hornby. In times of change, established players can get left for dead by nimble new entrants, one of the first things you get taught in Business Strategy. Established players have systems designed for stability and hence tend to be inflexible to challenges and changes.

 

IMO change is here, a headlight with B and H caught standing frozen in front.     

Edited May 24, 2018 by BWsTrains

[mdvle]

Well, to backtrack on what I said earlier and to be fair to Bachmann, Hatton's can commission from a 3rd party and get away with not announcing it to the rest of us until the model is very close to sale.  The P will have been in the pipeline for a very long time before Hatton's began to market it; part of the game is playing your cards close to the chest so that the competition doesn't second guess you and beat you to the shelves.

 

Hattons are now dealing directly with a factory in China and are not relying on commissions.

 

It's difficult to say where exactly the problem is but Bachmann's troubles started with some reorganization/changes with parent Kader.

 

Despite the issues with the delivery of models that rely on new tooling Bachmann is generally able to get reruns of older models done and into shops, which is something Hornby couldn't do when they had their struggles earlier this decade if I recall correctly.

 

The good news is that the new tooling items that have made it to sample stage - Class 90, crane, Mk2f, Class 117 - all look to be very good models which offers a lot to look forward to as Bachmann works to catch up on their backlog.

Edited May 24, 2018 by mdvle

[robmcg]

Having a soft spot for all the Bachmann steam locos I own, I was disappointed to read of their woes given all their years of success and experience.

 

Seems like they've taken a serious wrong turn somewhere with their development pipeline when elsewhere I read about a large diverse new model project due next year, whose scope is remarkable (if comments there are anything to judge by)

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/133954-class-66-in-oo-gauge-new-announcement/?p=3156477

 

accepting the point made earlier that Hatton's have advantages they can leverage, all the same it sounds like a game-changer and serious wake up call to the likes B and Hornby. In times of change, established players can get left for dead by nimble new entrants, one of the first things you get taught in Business Strategy. Established players have systems designed for stability and hence tend to be inflexible to challenges and changes.

 

IMO change is here, a headlight with B and H caught standing frozen in front.     

 

I have a soft spot for both Hornby and Bachmann, I love their RTR 00 steam models, but caught in the headlights is very apt, in the context of a known market and known costs to supply it.

 

Look at Hattons selling what appear to be large numbers of Heljan O2 2-8-0s at under half RRP. Lovely model, plenty left in stock, presumably Heljan wanted cash and Hattons came up with it. 

 

The delays by both established manufacturers suggest there are issues finding factory capacity at the right time and price and so on, but I wouldn't know the details.

 

The US dollar is still pretty high against Sterling, would that not affect profitability?

[MatthewCarty]

Hattons are now dealing directly with a factory in China and are not relying on commissions.

 

It's difficult to say where exactly the problem is but Bachmann's troubles started with some reorganization/changes with parent Kader.

 

Despite the issues with the delivery of models that rely on new tooling Bachmann is generally able to get reruns of older models done and into shops, which is something Hornby couldn't do when they had their struggles earlier this decade if I recall correctly.

 

The good news is that the new tooling items that have made it to sample stage - Class 90, crane, Mk2f, Class 117 - all look to be very good models which offers a lot to look forward to as Bachmann works to catch up on their backlog.

The problem is, we've been taking about them "catching up on their backlog" for about 5/6 years, with fewer announcements each year to help with this. Maybe the reality is that, with their current systems, the time to get a model from an announcement to a model in the shops is just a very long time! I hope I'm proved wrong, but the availability page on Bachmann's website doesn't make for happy reading!

[Wickham Green]

Wouldn't it be nice if Hornby stole Bachmann's thunder announcing Bulleid coaches early next year, po with delivery at the end of 2019. I would wager Bachmann won't have these in the shops until about 2021 going on past performance.

I think 'interesting' would be a more appropriate term - I'd not wish Bachmann any more woes than they have at present ............. BUT Hornby COULD use their existing Maunsell chassis for the 59' Bulleid coaches and I'm sure those would sell well : duplication of the 63' stock is NOT what anyone wants.

 

And while on the topic of Bachmann's Southern announcements, there's been no activity on the Brighton Atlantic threads for AGES ............ have we all given up already ?

[Dunsignalling]

There's a crucial difference between the way Bachmann does business compared to all the others as I see it.

 

The usual business model is that a UK "manufacturer" or "commissioner" contracts a Chinese factory to produce a model based on their requirements and whatever R&D they provide. The factory takes it from there and gets paid accordingly. There may be a "pump-priming" payment up front with the rest due on completion so there is an incentive to get a move on, with (possibly) penalties for late delivery. Paying extra will, I suspect, get you in quicker but if the contract, once signed, specifies delivery in (say) October 2018, that's what should happen.  

 

Hornby don't own their "Chinese factories", but a defined proportion of  their capacity is likely to be contracted to them as part of a longer term relationship.

 

Bachmann are, in large part, owned by Kader industries, who do the actual production, and who have other subsidiaries operating in various fields. Bachmann presumably have to compete for production slots with those subsidiaries and priority will be influenced by relative profitability and/or the most efficient employment of assets. No doubt promises are made, but I'm guessing they don't have as much protection from "queue jumping" as a contract between entirely separate businesses would provide.  

 

If I am right, and some of the foregoing is only educated guesswork, then Bachmann models being pushed down the pecking order is only to be expected, and there's probably little they can do about it.

 

John

Edited May 25, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Edwardian]

There's a crucial difference between the way Bachmann does business compared to all the others as I see it.

 

The usual business model is that a UK "manufacturer" or commissioner contracts a Chinese factory to produce a model based on their requirements and whatever R&D they provide. The factory takes it from there and gets paid accordingly. There may be a "pump-priming" payment up front with the rest due on completion so there is an incentive to get a move on, with (possibly) penalties for late delivery. Paying extra will, I, suspect, get you in quicker but, if the contract specifies delivery in (say) October 2018, that's what should happen.  

 

Hornby have several "Chinese factories", with longer-term contracts giving access to a defined a proportion of  their capacity, rather than ownership.

 

Bachmann are, in large part, owned by Kader industries, who do the actual production, and who have other subsidiaries operating in various fields. Bachmann have to compete for production slots with those subsidiaries and priority is presumably influenced by relative profitability and/or most efficient employment of assets. No doubt promises are made, but I'm guessing they don't have as much protection from "queue jumping" as a contract between entirely separate businesses would provide.  

 

If I am right, and some of the foregoing is only educated guesswork, then Bachmann models being pushed down the pecking order is only to be expected, and there's probably little they can do about it.

 

John

 

Interesting John.  So, from what you say, Kader is a beast with many tails, one of which is Bachmann, and some others of which might be better placed to wag the dog than Bachmann seems to be!

[The Stationmaster]

Interesting John.  So, from what you say, Kader is a beast with many tails, one of which is Bachmann, and some others of which might be better placed to wag the dog than Bachmann seems to be!

 

Kader is a very large concern by any measure with a number of model railway brands under its ownership - Bachmann Europe (basically the UK range plus Lilliput and Graham Farish), Bachmann US, Williams Trains (another US brand), and Bachmann's own brand Chinese range.  In addition they manufacture various ranges of toys including various ODM (basically commissioned/contract) items for ranges owned by other companies.  So in other words that have a wide ranging  manufacturing element which until recently was losing considerable amounts of money every year athough it is now in profit.

 

I don't know how they moved from substantial losses to profit but one can surmise that it was by the standard approaches of reducing costs and increasing prices (for example there seems to have been a change to their internal prices to Bachmann Europe which had the effect of transferring the profit making part of the overall concern back onto Kader's own balance sheet from Bachmann Europe's).  We shouldn't forget either that they are very much in the commissioned model business which will also take some of their overall capacity.  And equally that they do a very thorough job of research, especially for their more recent models, which undoubtedly takes time and costs money.   Another thing for us all to remember is that development of every model costs capital so facilities and capacity apart there must surely be only a certain amount they can do at any one time?

 

Perhaps their past mistake was to announce too much too quickly causing froth and anticipation to grow among the 'I want it now, if not last week' approach which now seems to permeate the R-T-R marketplace and leads to reams of pixels (excuse the mixed metaphor) being splattered across various websites.  No doubt they'll get round to producing at some time what they've already announced but surely we should at least remember that they've got an awful lot to get through and it can't all come at once, let alone be delivered last week.

[dibber25]

Well, to backtrack on what I said earlier and to be fair to Bachmann, Hatton's can commission from a 3rd party and get away with not announcing it to the rest of us until the model is very close to sale.  The P will have been in the pipeline for a very long time before Hatton's began to market it; part of the game is playing your cards close to the chest so that the competition doesn't second guess you and beat you to the shelves.

 

A commissioner doesn't have the overhead or need to R & D a product, or arrange for it's production in the Chinese subcontracting system, or shipping; he pays the producer to do that for him.  Baccy and the other big manufacturers cannot do this sort of smoke and mirrors trick of appearing to be light on their feet, efficient, and responsive to the market.  Make no mistake, it is an illusion; the model takes the usual amount of time to get to the shelves and the price is still not known until very late in the process, but modelling world at large is unaware of it until the last minute.

 

None of which gets around or explains the undeniable fact that Bachmann are absolutely hopeless at delivering promised models in an acceptable time.  Their rep at the Bristol show made the point that a 94xx is not just a simple box as most people think pannier tanks are, which suggested to me that they may have had problems with this model that they are not going to go into, but delays to modern image releases which are relatively simple in shape compared to a steam outline model are just as bad, so I still don't think this washes as an excuse.  And it is this feeling that things are going on over which a marketing veil has been drawn, that there is an element of duplicity and mendacity here, that is what we find irritating.  It is, IMHO, very bad PR.

 

Anyone commissioning a model, who doesn't do their own R&D, and who entrusts it to a Chinese subcontractor, is sooner or later going to get a very nasty surprise. The research package needs to be produced in Britain by people with an understanding of British trains, access to appropriate reference material, and an ability to interpret it correctly. I'd be very surprised if Hatton's entrusts all that to a subcontractor on the other side of the World, because once they've cut metal, it's too late to tell them they've got it wrong. (CJL). 

[PaulRhB]

Hattons are producing three locos and four (ish) wagons if you include the variations Bachmann and Hornby are co-ordinating a huge range all of which need production slots to supply ALL the retailers. There's a huge difference in organising all your stock and new items manufactured abroad and just three or four at a time. Most of Hattons stock is what arrives and they sell on, so they refer you to the manufacturer about delays.

Both are good for the hobby but in reality not fair to make these comparisons on time. We as consumers wanted the info way up front so we could 'plan purchases' now we get it so far in front so they can plan batches people are spitting feathers over delays we never knew about before

If they go back to no advance notice then half will moan they haven't time to save up for all the models they want and there's a much higher risk of producing too many or not enough to satisfy demand. Shareholders are risk averse because it affects dividends so we end up with compromises

If they've announced something assume it will be 2-3 years and if life will be intolerable without it that long there are kits and custom builders available

1st world problems

I have sat before me on the workbench two boxes of 009 stock and only one loco to pull it due to Heljan's production problems, when they do arrive the stock will be there waiting, populated with figures and wagons loaded. There's so much to do even the layout is ready and waiting

[Fireline]

Well, to backtrack on what I said earlier and to be fair to Bachmann, Hatton's can commission from a 3rd party and get away with not announcing it to the rest of us until the model is very close to sale.  The P will have been in the pipeline for a very long time before Hatton's began to market it; part of the game is playing your cards close to the chest so that the competition doesn't second guess you and beat you to the shelves.

 

A commissioner doesn't have the overhead or need to R & D a product, or arrange for it's production in the Chinese subcontracting system, or shipping; he pays the producer to do that for him.  

 

The P class research was done in the UK. I know, because I know the man that did it!

[Sir TophamHatt]

If I was Hornby, I'd look at what Bachmann were making, and get it out to market before them.

They announced the new 158, what, nearly 10 years ago?  I am sure of Hornby got their cogs moving, they'd have been able to get a much better than the current model out in under 3.

 

I would never announce a product before it's pretty much ready (IE, in production) unless I needed the pre-order pledges/cash to actually manufacturer it.

[Legend]

There's a crucial difference between the way Bachmann does business compared to all the others as I see it.

 

The usual business model is that a UK "manufacturer" or "commissioner" contracts a Chinese factory to produce a model based on their requirements and whatever R&D they provide. The factory takes it from there and gets paid accordingly. There may be a "pump-priming" payment up front with the rest due on completion so there is an incentive to get a move on, with (possibly) penalties for late delivery. Paying extra will, I suspect, get you in quicker but if the contract, once signed, specifies delivery in (say) October 2018, that's what should happen.  

 

Hornby don't own their "Chinese factories", but a defined proportion of  their capacity is likely to be contracted to them as part of a longer term relationship.

 

Bachmann are, in large part, owned by Kader industries, who do the actual production, and who have other subsidiaries operating in various fields. Bachmann presumably have to compete for production slots with those subsidiaries and priority will be influenced by relative profitability and/or the most efficient employment of assets. No doubt promises are made, but I'm guessing they don't have as much protection from "queue jumping" as a contract between entirely separate businesses would provide.  

 

If I am right, and some of the foregoing is only educated guesswork, then Bachmann models being pushed down the pecking order is only to be expected, and there's probably little they can do about it.

 

John

I think that’s pretty much the position . Bachmann have to vie for manufacturing space with other markets that are more profitable. However what is surprising is that they continue to announce new commissions . I’m thinking Rails Caley 812 here , but there’s also TMC G5? . It is to be hoped that these commissioners have been able to tie Bachmann down on timing , otherwise their names will be tarnished by the long wait. Initial signs are not encouraging with the price of 812 being estimated at around £160 and lead time of 18 months, but I rather get the impression that 18 months is the standard response and not a real estimate

[The Johnster]

There's a crucial difference between the way Bachmann does business compared to all the others as I see it.

 

The usual business model is that a UK "manufacturer" or "commissioner" contracts a Chinese factory to produce a model based on their requirements and whatever R&D they provide. The factory takes it from there and gets paid accordingly. There may be a "pump-priming" payment up front with the rest due on completion so there is an incentive to get a move on, with (possibly) penalties for late delivery. Paying extra will, I suspect, get you in quicker but if the contract, once signed, specifies delivery in (say) October 2018, that's what should happen.  

 

Hornby don't own their "Chinese factories", but a defined proportion of  their capacity is likely to be contracted to them as part of a longer term relationship.

 

Bachmann are, in large part, owned by Kader industries, who do the actual production, and who have other subsidiaries operating in various fields. Bachmann presumably have to compete for production slots with those subsidiaries and priority will be influenced by relative profitability and/or the most efficient employment of assets. No doubt promises are made, but I'm guessing they don't have as much protection from "queue jumping" as a contract between entirely separate businesses would provide.  

 

If I am right, and some of the foregoing is only educated guesswork, then Bachmann models being pushed down the pecking order is only to be expected, and there's probably little they can do about it.

 

John

 

I would say this is a bit worrying, as it sounds as if Kader are caught up in their own processes and cannot compete effectively for Chinese production capacity.  The Chinese factory is a myth; Kader, Hornby, or whoever will deal with a middleman agency in China who will arrange for parts to be produced in a large variety of small factories, then assembled in a larger facility for packing and shipping; there is no 'production line', and each component is made in a separate location.  It sounds incredibly inefficient but the Chinese are a cottage industry culture and very good at this sort of thing.  

 

So, the big players don't actually make their own stuff any more, they just market and distribute it; they are all basically commissioners.  The time they take to get a model to market will depend on how successfully they compete with each other for manufacturing and assembly capacity on the other side of the world, where, guess what, costs are rising.  This aspect is not Bachmann's strong point, and they worsen the situation by claiming stakes in a model in the hope of preventing anyone else having a go and getting in ahead of them (this is an opinion of mine, not a proven fact), and announcing it probably before they have even passed the R & D to the Chinese.  As I said before, it plays out as bad PR.  You can get away with it to some extent when times are good and the models combine cheapness and good quality, but those days are gone and we are locked in to good quality which we have to pay for; increased prices up the ante and the good times roll no more. just look at the complaints about prices in this topic!

 

I don't need that many locos so I can live with price increases to a greater extent than some people can and accept that what it costs is what it costs, but the long lead times annoy me intensely, especially as one cannot rely on the initial projected delivery dates.  It engenders a feeling that you are dealing with a company who expect people to buy their product, and who will pay up eventually anyway no matter how cavalier your treatment of them.  Sadly, this works for a while, but eventually folk will call them to account and market share will drop, and we will have another key player in big trouble.  There are challenges ahead for Kader; 3D printing for example, a still largely unknown quantity in the market but it's only going to get better and cheaper over time, and they will need goodwill.  They are spending goodwill like there's no tomorrow with the lead time issue IMHO>

[The Johnster]

Kader is a very large concern by any measure with a number of model railway brands under its ownership - Bachmann Europe (basically the UK range plus Lilliput and Graham Farish), Bachmann US, Williams Trains (another US brand), and Bachmann's own brand Chinese range.  In addition they manufacture various ranges of toys including various ODM (basically commissioned/contract) items for ranges owned by other companies.  So in other words that have a wide ranging  manufacturing element which until recently was losing considerable amounts of money every year athough it is now in profit.

 

I don't know how they moved from substantial losses to profit but one can surmise that it was by the standard approaches of reducing costs and increasing prices (for example there seems to have been a change to their internal prices to Bachmann Europe which had the effect of transferring the profit making part of the overall concern back onto Kader's own balance sheet from Bachmann Europe's).  We shouldn't forget either that they are very much in the commissioned model business which will also take some of their overall capacity.  And equally that they do a very thorough job of research, especially for their more recent models, which undoubtedly takes time and costs money.   Another thing for us all to remember is that development of every model costs capital so facilities and capacity apart there must surely be only a certain amount they can do at any one time?

 

Perhaps their past mistake was to announce too much too quickly causing froth and anticipation to grow among the 'I want it now, if not last week' approach which now seems to permeate the R-T-R marketplace and leads to reams of pixels (excuse the mixed metaphor) being splattered across various websites.  No doubt they'll get round to producing at some time what they've already announced but surely we should at least remember that they've got an awful lot to get through and it can't all come at once, let alone be delivered last week.

 

Reams of pixels is a work of genius, Mike; permission to use it please?  It reminds me a bit of Arthur Scargill in a speech during the 80s strike, demanding that 'these measures be phased out, immediately!'  I miss Arthur, he was always amusing...

[Andy Y]

The Chinese factory is a myth; Kader, Hornby, or whoever will deal with a middleman agency in China 

 

In the case of Kader, at least, that is completely incorrect.

[Andy Y]

Hatton's can commission from a 3rd party and get away with not announcing it to the rest of us until the model is very close to sale.  

 

 

A commissioner doesn't have the overhead or need to R & D a product, or arrange for it's production in the Chinese subcontracting system, or shipping; he pays the producer to do that for him.

 

Hatton's are working directly with a factory, not a third party and the research and checking is in the UK, not China.

[fezza]

Bachmann must work to a business plan that has specific cash flow projections and revenue targets. Why then are so many production targets missed? It must produce massive accounting problems, extra logistical costs and lost revenue.

 

Perhaps some products are deliberately delayed for marketing purposes. However, from an outsider's perspective, the business looks a bit of a mess...