Moving from OO to N?

[MattWallace]

Hi all,

 

I'm moving house (again!) and have had the first property fall through (which, annoyingly, had a garage longer than my most recent layout plan) the new house means that I will probably be purchasing a shed and moving the layout into that space.

 

At the moment, my layout is 15' x 1' and in OO gauge however the largest shed I can justify buying at the moment is 7' x 5'.

 

I want to model in the present day and Ideally I'd like to do both passenger and freight, however given that by the time I've added curves in for the corners etc I'll be down to about 5' x 2' this limits me to a single car DMU or a TMD, neither of which particularly appeal.

 

With the above in mind, I'm now wondering whether it's worth selling off my OO stuff and downsizing to N (something that Vanders has been advising me to do for some time now!) giving me a much "larger" layout in the same size space.

 

I've always worked in OO on the basis that an HST looks prototypical if you have at least 2+5, requiring at least 7' of space for a decent platform, however I *think* that this means I'd only need 3.5' for a platform in N - is that correct?

 

If I am right, can I also therefore assume that I could fit quite a decent sized freight/oil terminal into this size space?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Matt

[fender]

yes, N is half the length of OO.

 

however, don't forget that it's also half the width. this means that a copy of your OO layout in N will take up 1/4 of the space!

 

it really is impressive how much more you can fit in.

 

unfortunately you also lose some detail, and you have the couplings to consider. however, imo the detail issue is really only important for close up photos and the fiddly-ness of parts, and there are plenty of examples on this forum of layouts you could have sworn were 4mm but in fact are only 2!

 

I'm thinking about going down the same road as you so I will be watching your progress. good luck if you decide to go through with it.

[MattWallace]

Thanks.

 

As far as couplings are concerned, I moved to kadee couplings for all my OO stock a few years ago so I'm not too worried about it.

 

I hadn't thought about it being 1/4 of the size!

 

Cheers,

 

Matt

[woodenhead]

How's your eyesight,

 

I am currently trying to relay my N gauge railway and I've been trying to solder wire onto the points so I can switch polarity and I am really struggling.

 

I've known N gauge all my life but recently it has got very hard to see.

 

There are plenty of people with glasses who model N but make absolutely sure you can cope with the switch,

[Vanders]

How's your eyesight,

I'm partially blind and I manage it!

[markb]

i have oo gauge an just started a small n gauge layout in the conservatory mainly lack of space . I am rather supprised how much track i have in less than half of what my oo gauge layout use's .

[MattWallace]

Thanks Mark, I've been told that I might be allowed to keep a simple loop in OO as part of a fairy garden that my wife is going to build at the new house with the kids.

 

Out of interest, if the "standard" OO gauge layout is 8x4, does that mean I can get away with 4 x 2 to get a full curve etc. in N?

 

Cheers,

 

Matt

[PaulCheffus]

Thanks Mark, I've been told that I might be allowed to keep a simple loop in OO as part of a fairy garden that my wife is going to build at the new house with the kids.

 

Out of interest, if the "standard" OO gauge layout is 8x4, does that mean I can get away with 4 x 2 to get a full curve etc. in N?

 

Cheers,

 

Matt

Hi

 

You can but I would advise on 75% of the area of the OO layout so 8x4 becomes 6x3. This allows gentler curves and longer points making the whole thing look more realistic.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[ParkeNd]

As PaulCheffus says 6 x 2 is really too narrow for N gauge. Radii are best kept to 12" and 10.5" so the realistic minimum width is 2 ft 6 ins. If the shed is 8 feet long why not go for 7 ft or 7 ft 6 ins as the board length?

 

This is what my 6 ft 6 ins by 2 ft 4 ins layout can fit in. Another 2" width would have been a better idea though.

 

 

 

[MattWallace]

Thanks both, I should have been clearer in my original question!

 

My thoughts at the moment if I do go down this route are to do a present-day layout based on somewhere like Newport (South Wales) or Bristol Parkway so I can run both a varied freight and passenger service.

 

If I do go down this route then I'll probably go for a 7 x 5 shed and have the layout take up 7x1 of that with a helix on at least one end and the fiddleyard underneath, however given that a helix in OO needs to be at least 4ft square, I was hoping I could get away with a 2ft square in N to get the Helix down to the lower level.

 

This then leaves me somewhere in the region of 4ft in the rest of the shed for storage/working space etc.

 

Cheers,

 

Matt

[Revolution Ben]

Hello Matt,

 

If you're considering helices then have a look at this thread: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/96049-hills-and-meadows-n-gauge-dcc-computer-controlled/

 

Maurits (maurits71) is a fellow member of the N Gauge Society Northants and Cambs area group and this is his own "home" layout.  I think at least one helix is wired in and working so he should be able to give useful advice on monimum radii, gradient etc for N Gauge locos and stock based on practical experience, rather than just aspirational theory!

 

Your concept sounds interesting, and yes you'll have a good variety of trains to run.  Do you have a draft plan you could post?

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[ParkeNd]

Most of the people I have seen on forums seem to go with the idea of using three of the sides of a shed for a U shaped layout. Even in a tiny 7x5 shed this would give you a of 18 feet of running. Helixes aren't really an N gauge thing and I wonder if you are thinking in OO gauge and planning in N gauge. Sheds seem to work when they are huge rich guys mini bungalow affairs, but being outside in the rain, and on hot or freezing cold days in a structure no bigger than a double bed must be a real challenge. Trailing electrical extension leads, condensation, and potential theft must surely add to the flavour. At one point in the thread you mention even 4x2 presumably as equivalent to an OO layout on an 8x4 board in OO - which it would be - so if an 8x4 OO could appeal to you then would not a 4x2 single level board that would fit in a wardrobe when not in use be better indoors? You could consider it as being half an 8x2 layout (with the second board to be undeclared but added later if the fairy garden proves to be less appealing than video games).

 

Building on another point you made earlier - even The Fairy Light Railway in 009 might be preferable to exile in a shed. You could kit build locos and carriages - even wagons to transport the output from Fairydust quarries.

[Vanders]

Sheds seem to work when they are huge rich guys mini bungalow affairs, but being outside in the rain, and on hot or freezing cold days in a structure no bigger than a double bed must be a real challenge. Trailing electrical extension leads, condensation, and potential theft must surely add to the flavour.

If you do it properly, I.e. insulate and have fixed wiring, some form of heating and an alarm installed, a shed is much like any other room in a house, except it's much cheaper than building an extension.

[MattWallace]

Hello Matt,

 

If you're considering helices then have a look at this thread: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/96049-hills-and-meadows-n-gauge-dcc-computer-controlled/

 

Maurits (maurits71) is a fellow member of the N Gauge Society Northants and Cambs area group and this is his own "home" layout.  I think at least one helix is wired in and working so he should be able to give useful advice on monimum radii, gradient etc for N Gauge locos and stock based on practical experience, rather than just aspirational theory!

 

Your concept sounds interesting, and yes you'll have a good variety of trains to run.  Do you have a draft plan you could post?

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

No draft yet for an "end to end" layout, but it's on its way...

 

Most of the people I have seen on forums seem to go with the idea of using three of the sides of a shed for a U shaped layout. Even in a tiny 7x5 shed this would give you a of 18 feet of running. Helixes aren't really an N gauge thing and I wonder if you are thinking in OO gauge and planning in N gauge. Sheds seem to work when they are huge rich guys mini bungalow affairs, but being outside in the rain, and on hot or freezing cold days in a structure no bigger than a double bed must be a real challenge. Trailing electrical extension leads, condensation, and potential theft must surely add to the flavour. At one point in the thread you mention even 4x2 presumably as equivalent to an OO layout on an 8x4 board in OO - which it would be - so if an 8x4 OO could appeal to you then would not a 4x2 single level board that would fit in a wardrobe when not in use be better indoors? You could consider it as being half an 8x2 layout (with the second board to be undeclared but added later if the fairy garden proves to be less appealing than video games).

 

Building on another point you made earlier - even The Fairy Light Railway in 009 might be preferable to exile in a shed. You could kit build locos and carriages - even wagons to transport the output from Fairydust quarries.

 

You may well be right here about thinking in the wrong scale, I guess if I do go down this route I'll probably print out various track templates and play around with them before I design the final layout.

 

As far as the garden railway goes, I've always felt that 009 "looks wrong" so I've agreed that this will be straight OO gauge, probably a large loop using the shed as a fiddle yard with pannier tanks and Mk1 coaches for the "fairies" and then I'll run a couple of HST/Oil/Container/Coal services around it when I want to give my 66 and 92 a chance to stretch their legs.

 

Ideally, I'd have an OO "U" around the shed with a Helix in the corner that took the logos down and out to the garden, but at the moment I can't see how that fits in my head!

 

If you do it properly, I.e. insulate and have fixed wiring, some form of heating and an alarm installed, a shed is much like any other room in a house, except it's much cheaper than building an extension.

 

Yup, that's the hope, my only concern is getting the power out to the shed, thankfully I know a good electrician...

[MattWallace]

OK, so here's a crack at "stop thinking in OO but smaller" - an N gauge layout in a 7x5 shed:

 

 

Industry at the top of the screen, 4-road FY at the bottom, scenics around the sides.

 

Comments welcome

[PatB]

OK, so here's a crack at "stop thinking in OO but smaller" - an N gauge layout in a 7x5 shed:

 

 

Industry at the top of the screen, 4-road FY at the bottom, scenics around the sides.

 

Comments welcome

 

Unless it's absolutely vital that you maximise the size of the operating well it might be an idea to ease the curves a bit, at least on the main line. It might require some juggling of pointwork but I think you've got room to do it without losing anything important.

[MattWallace]

Hmmm, what were you saying about working in N but thinking in OO?

 

http://www.scarm.info/layouts/track_plans.php?ltp=33has an amazing layout that I wouldn't even consider trying to fit into such a small space!

 

Do those curves look a bit too tight for present-day modelling (66's/70's/etc)?

 

If that looks like a possibility, then I may well "adapt" that approach!

 

Cheers,

 

Matt

[MattWallace]

And reading  around the N-Gauge forums, I came across "Onemore Yard" in their beginners section as a suggestion for a first N layout.

 

I've modified it slightly to give:

 

 

This provides a suburban line on an "upper" layer and a freight operation on the lower layer all in just 4ft x 1ft.

 

Things could be looking up...

[MattWallace]

Decision made, I'm moving to N.

 

Thanks for all your help folks!

 

Matt

[Deev]

Hi Matt,

 

I built a shed and insulated it with 50mm Celotex.  Not too cold in winter, not too warm in summer.  Dry too, though maybe not dry enough to stop corroson.

 

I've been contemplating a move to N too, but can't get past these reasons:

 

1) I have hundreds of items of fairly new rolling stock that I've have to sell / rehome and N gauge kit seems cripplingly expensive in comparison.

2) I hate (and I mean really really) the N-gauge couplings

3) N seems a bit small to fit lights / sound / etc. to locos / stock

4) All my late dad's stuff is OO and while being c**p, I just can't get of rid for sentimental reasons.

 

All that said, it certainly does solve space problems and allows epic layouts.

 

What was the final straw for you?

 

For my next project, if I ever get my room finished, I plan to build the layout on modules to allow the layout to be moved and worked on with the young family around.  I tried a set up in my garage but with family demands it just didn't work for me.  That said, I am pondering a very small (as in 80cm x 160cm) fold out roundy-roundy in N to keep my 3 year old entertained.

 

Regarding your trackplan, and I mean this is the nicest and most constructive way, but it doesn't offer much in the way of interest beyond running 4 trains round and round.  If this is what you want, then it's great, but I reckon from all the previous layouts and your techie background then it won't be long before you wish to add some control and a fiddle yard and points and all that good stuff that it won't offer.  Personally I'd like to see some bridges or maybe running the layout over two levels like they do in the US.  That would definitely add some interest for the future.

 

Dave

[pitbull1845]

Hi Matt,

Good luck with the switch, I've often thought about it, I even have two lengths of flexi track on standby.

However my concerns have always been the running quality and as others have mentioned, the huge couplings oh and the ballasting!

 

I'll be interested to see how you get on with it, Newport or Bristol are both good locations to model..

[MattWallace]

Hi Matt,

 

I built a shed and insulated it with 50mm Celotex.  Not too cold in winter, not too warm in summer.  Dry too, though maybe not dry enough to stop corroson.

 

I've been contemplating a move to N too, but can't get past these reasons:

 

1) I have hundreds of items of fairly new rolling stock that I've have to sell / rehome and N gauge kit seems cripplingly expensive in comparison.

2) I hate (and I mean really really) the N-gauge couplings

3) N seems a bit small to fit lights / sound / etc. to locos / stock

4) All my late dad's stuff is OO and while being c**p, I just can't get of rid for sentimental reasons.

 

All that said, it certainly does solve space problems and allows epic layouts.

 

What was the final straw for you?

 

For my next project, if I ever get my room finished, I plan to build the layout on modules to allow the layout to be moved and worked on with the young family around.  I tried a set up in my garage but with family demands it just didn't work for me.  That said, I am pondering a very small (as in 80cm x 160cm) fold out roundy-roundy in N to keep my 3 year old entertained.

 

Regarding your trackplan, and I mean this is the nicest and most constructive way, but it doesn't offer much in the way of interest beyond running 4 trains round and round.  If this is what you want, then it's great, but I reckon from all the previous layouts and your techie background then it won't be long before you wish to add some control and a fiddle yard and points and all that good stuff that it won't offer.  Personally I'd like to see some bridges or maybe running the layout over two levels like they do in the US.  That would definitely add some interest for the future.

 

Dave

 

Hi Dave,

 

The final straw was that I simply can't fit what I want to do in OO gauge into the spaces available to me.  I did have the loft, but I couldn't get in there to do anything because I might have woken our youngest and the weekends are spent with my family.

 

A layout that's 16ft x 1ft won't fit in a 7x5 shed (which is where I appear to be heading) so it was either get an OO layout that I was *really* unhappy with, or go down a scale to N.

 

FWIW, the latest track plan is now this:

 

 

This gives me a raised suburban line that I can automate and a freight area I can operate "manually".  The plan is to base it on Alexandra Docs so that I can basicallyrun what ever I want into and out of it as a service!

 

Ignore the title, that layout is actually 5ft x 1ft with a 3ft x 6in detachable fiddle yard, I'd welcome thoughts on the latest design over on my new thread if you can spare the time

 

Hi Matt,

Good luck with the switch, I've often thought about it, I even have two lengths of flexi track on standby.

However my concerns have always been the running quality and as others have mentioned, the huge couplings oh and the ballasting!

 

I'll be interested to see how you get on with it, Newport or Bristol are both good locations to model..

 

The new Dapol Easy-Couple magnetic couplings don't look too bad and (unlike a lot of "modern" OO stock) pretty much everything seems to come with NEM pockets in N so converting them is relatively easy, but I'l let you know how I get on!

 

Cheers,

 

Matt

[Deev]

Much more like it.  Traverser?

[RBE]

yes, N is half the length of OO.

 

however, don't forget that it's also half the width. this means that a copy of your OO layout in N will take up 1/4 of the space!

 

it really is impressive how much more you can fit in.

 

unfortunately you also lose some detail, and you have the couplings to consider. however, imo the detail issue is really only important for close up photos and the fiddly-ness of parts, and there are plenty of examples on this forum of layouts you could have sworn were 4mm but in fact are only 2!

 

I'm thinking about going down the same road as you so I will be watching your progress. good luck if you decide to go through with it.

 

You can certainly do detail in N, I've tried to push the boundaries on my Millers Dale thread? I am also working on coupling replacements for fixed rakes which I think look great and I use DG's where uncoupling is required.

 

Here are some pics of my stock with DG's on (not the tank, still have standards on for now) and a video of my couplers in action on some mk 2 stock (not the best quality but you get the idea)

 

 

 

 

[RBE]

Hi Dave,

 

The final straw was that I simply can't fit what I want to do in OO gauge into the spaces available to me.  I did have the loft, but I couldn't get in there to do anything because I might have woken our youngest and the weekends are spent with my family.

 

A layout that's 16ft x 1ft won't fit in a 7x5 shed (which is where I appear to be heading) so it was either get an OO layout that I was *really* unhappy with, or go down a scale to N.

 

FWIW, the latest track plan is now this:

 

 

This gives me a raised suburban line that I can automate and a freight area I can operate "manually".  The plan is to base it on Alexandra Docs so that I can basicallyrun what ever I want into and out of it as a service!

 

Ignore the title, that layout is actually 5ft x 1ft with a 3ft x 6in detachable fiddle yard, I'd welcome thoughts on the latest design over on my new thread if you can spare the time

 

 

The new Dapol Easy-Couple magnetic couplings don't look too bad and (unlike a lot of "modern" OO stock) pretty much everything seems to come with NEM pockets in N so converting them is relatively easy, but I'l let you know how I get on!

 

Cheers,

 

Matt

That green return curve looks like its too sharp. 9inch radius is the very minimum and even that can be problematic. Looking at your drawing it looks to be 6inch radius at the very most!