class156 Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 I am looking to do a push pull Glasgow-Edinburgh class 27 train. I intend to use class 27s and the Heljan ones are too expensive for what I intend to do with the train when finished, so will be using Lima. So, my questions here are, is there any way to improve the "plastic" look of the FYEs on a Lima class 26/27 (both very similar locos) i.e. detailing parts etc. available to fit? Also, are the coaches just standard MK2s i.e. no Scotrail branding and what was a typical formation? I do think the green class 26/27 from Lima looks less "plastic" compared to the FYEs, but hopefully FYEs can be improved a bit, quite cheaply to justify using them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waveydavey Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 The only way to get rid of the plastic look on Lima locos is to paint them. Most Lima locos are in yellow plastic so the ends are unpainted. You can use the detail parts from the Heljan 27 for such things as buffer beam pipe work and replacement buffers in brass are available from Markway and in white metal from Lanarkshire Models. Shawplan do a very nice roof fan grill designed for the Heljan model but it will no doubt fit the Lima shell. SE Fine sat do a vacuum formed pack of flush glazing but personally I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. One thing to be aware of is that additional grills were added to the 27/2s during 1977. I think A1 or Craftsman used to do these but they are probably unavailable nowadays. Brian at Shawplan has measured them up and will produce them at some point in the future though. Coaches were standard mk.2s modified with disc brakes and lettered Inter-City. Formations were FK, BSO, 4xTSO, all available from Bachmann or if you are on a budget probably doable from old Triangle/Hornby mk.2s. Normally there would be a 27/1 at one end and a 27/2 at the other. Cheers David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
class156 Posted June 2, 2015 Author Share Posted June 2, 2015 Thanks for the info. I'll research those parts which I can get to improve the model. I'll possibly try some good quality Hornby coaches and see what's available. Do you mean the grills round the locos number on the side panels of the class 27? If so, Lima modelled 27102 with these in place, so that and a standard model would work? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kylestrome Posted June 2, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 2, 2015 There many useful bits for detailing Lima 27's at Howes Models, who have most of the detail parts for Heljan locos in stock. You will certainly want to replace the underframe details with something more true to scale, so this will be be a good place to start: https://www.howesmodels.co.uk/product/Class%2026/27/33%20sprue%20E%20(black) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waveydavey Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 No, the 27/2s had one body side window on each side converted to a grill and other grills added to the body side, two on one side and three on the other. If you do a search on Flickr for any loco between 27201 and 27212 you will be able to see the grills in question. Cheers David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew F Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 Craftsman Class 37/40 nose horn grilles make adequate circular grilles for the body. You may have to use a bit of lateral thinking for the other grilles. Drastic measures could include cutting a hole and letting in a cut-out grille from an old body shell but I'm sure there's some etched grilles that will fit the bill. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
class156 Posted June 2, 2015 Author Share Posted June 2, 2015 Some very nice ideas to think about. I've never really done any extensive work to a body shell or coach. Will give some of it a go, as they say, got to start somewhere. I'll investigate those grill to see the differences between class 27/2 and 27/1. The coaches should be simple enough to obtain. I take it one loco can remain standard with the other to be modified as mentioned? Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YK 50A Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 No, the 27/2s had one body side window on each side converted to a grill and other grills added to the body side, two on one side and three on the other. If you do a search on Flickr for any loco between 27201 and 27212 you will be able to see the grills in question. Cheers David Don't forget the additional exhaust in the roof! Out of interest, the arrangement of grills and vents might have varied slightly from locomotive to locomotive. As well as the identical vents at the no 1 end, check out the additional pair of small grills at the no 2 end with 27 201 when compared to 27 212 and the rest of the same side photographs I've seen of class 27/2s. There's a good view of the other side with this picture of 27 208. What the bogies looked like after conversion is shown well in this photograph. I hope that's of use, Alun Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YK 50A Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 ...I take it one loco can remain standard with the other to be modified as mentioned? Apologies, I missed that. Yes, pretty much. Further, with a class 27/2 you should be able to see ETH jumper and receptacle at the cab ends in the photographs I linked to above, although their fitting (like the grills) also varied from class member to class member, as did the cabside windows. I doubt the water tanks are detailed enough on a Lima to mean the gauges need removing? Incidentally, I have read but never seen evidence of class 37s and class 25s being used in lieu of a class 27 during early trials and also later because of failures. Alun Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John M Upton Posted June 2, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 2, 2015 If I recall there are some inaccuracies on the Lima Class 26/27 chassis as they simply reused the Class 33 version and plonked the body on. Still looks the part for the less discerning eye though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 Best way to sort out the yellow ends is to spray the inside with neutral dark grey, and the visible face with mid grey undercoat before re-spraying the yellow ends. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
class156 Posted June 2, 2015 Author Share Posted June 2, 2015 I'll see what I can put together first and then start a little upgrading of the locos, but wouldn't look right not to do both locos (appart from the 27/2 changes on 1 loco). I'll note progress here though as it happens Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Scottish Modeller Posted June 2, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 2, 2015 I'll see what I can put together first and then start a little upgrading of the locos, but wouldn't look right not to do both locos (appart from the 27/2 changes on 1 loco). I'll note progress here though as it happens You have to take the big step - do both locos so that they are to the same style and standard. As others have said - the paint makes a big difference. I used to paint the whole of the inside on all Lima locos first. Then - having decided what parts you are going to improve, set to and get on with the work. First things would be the roof... Replace the roof grill and fan, then, if you can still get them - fit etched roof grills for the cantrail ones. For the specific detail for your loco - work from a photo. As WaveyDavey and Alun have said - do the P/P mods to one loco and not the other. It is possible to do a bit of work to improve the fuel tank areas - but I've never been convinced it was worth the effort. Likewise with the bogies.... Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
class156 Posted June 2, 2015 Author Share Posted June 2, 2015 Thanks for the tips on all this. Sounds a big job though, but will have a go. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Scottish Modeller Posted June 2, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 2, 2015 Thanks for the tips on all this. Sounds a big job though, but will have a go. Hi there, Yes - if you do it all - it is a big job. Just take it steady - do a bit at a time. Start with whatever you feel is easiest for you... But - It will make a big difference once it's done.... Plus - you will be able to say - I did that! Having just checked with Howes about this... You can get the tanks, detail pack etc from them for the Heljan model. Maybe that is something you want to look into? Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waveydavey Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 What the bogies looked like after conversion is shown well in this photograph. I hope that's of use, Alun Thanks for the picture of the wheel slip protection equipment on the coaches Alun. Do you know if this was on all four corners, two diagonally opposite corners or just on the one? The only other photos I've seen of this equipment have been on this corner. Cheers David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YK 50A Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Thanks for the picture of the wheel slip protection equipment on the coaches Alun. Do you know if this was on all four corners, two diagonally opposite corners or just on the one? The only other photos I've seen of this equipment have been on this corner. Cheers David Hello David, I believe all sides of all bogies other than under the brake compartment because of the hand brake. Have a look at this photograph, which I have zoomed to the point of being able to see only grain. The owner has disabled downloading. If you find out for sure, please let me know! Alun Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YK 50A Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 ...Do you know if this was on all four corners, two diagonally opposite corners or just on the one? The only other photos I've seen of this equipment have been on this corner... I believe all sides of all bogies other than under the brake compartment because of the hand brake. Have a look at this photograph... I've had a brain wave, I can't believe I haven't thought of this before. The original 10 Mk2F DBSO's (9701 to 9710) which are still in the Network Rail fleet, received their bogies from Edinburgh and Glasgow early Mk2s, the donors receiving standard bogies in replacement while the remainder kept their disc brakes and Girling wheel slip protection. So... There are lots of contemporary photographs, which would suggest the pipework on opposite corners! Have a look at this picture too. Hope that helps, Alun Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbos Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 The only way to get rid of the plastic look on Lima locos is to paint them. Most Lima locos are in yellow plastic so the ends are unpainted. You can use the detail parts from the Heljan 27 for such things as buffer beam pipe work and replacement buffers in brass are available from Markway and in white metal from Lanarkshire Models. Shawplan do a very nice roof fan grill designed for the Heljan model but it will no doubt fit the Lima shell. SE Fine sat do a vacuum formed pack of flush glazing but personally I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. One thing to be aware of is that additional grills were added to the 27/2s during 1977. I think A1 or Craftsman used to do these but they are probably unavailable nowadays. Brian at Shawplan has measured them up and will produce them at some point in the future though. Coaches were standard mk.2s modified with disc brakes and lettered Inter-City. Formations were FK, BSO, 4xTSO, all available from Bachmann or if you are on a budget probably doable from old Triangle/Hornby mk.2s. Normally there would be a 27/1 at one end and a 27/2 at the other. Cheers David The normal formation of the Class 27 operated Edinburgh - Glasgow trains was (Glasgow end) 27/2, BSO, FK, 4xTSO, 27/1. The 27/2 No2 end was always next to the BSO due to the noise from the ETH Deutz generator set, so if you're detailing the buffer beam of only one end make sure it's the No1 end of the 27/2. Although Class 25 and 37 were trialled and used it was mainly in it's early days of operation and was quite rare once the full complement of 27/1 and 27/2 were available. Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peak experience Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Is the Lima class 27 a decent representation of the real thing in terms of it's dimensions? Has any one tried fitting lazer glaze to one? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted August 17, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 17, 2015 The normal formation of the Class 27 operated Edinburgh - Glasgow trains was (Glasgow end) 27/2, BSO, FK, 4xTSO, 27/1. The 27/2 No2 end was always next to the BSO due to the noise from the ETH Deutz generator set, so if you're detailing the buffer beam of only one end make sure it's the No1 end of the 27/2. Although Class 25 and 37 were trialled and used it was mainly in it's early days of operation and was quite rare once the full complement of 27/1 and 27/2 were available. Brian. Excellent info Brian. I never realised that the 27/2 was always at the BSO end. For years I've been changing ends indiscriminately. My first attempt at modelling this would have been around 1980/81 when they were just being replaced. I used Lima 33s with nose modifications in the then Airfix Trains Mag . I only had Hornby BSO ( which was actually a BFK) , Lima FK and 2 Hornby SO s . The second 27/33 was unpowered . I just disconnected the drive train as the two locos operating together frequently caused derailments. I did latterly buy a Lima 27 ,when they came out , but got rid of them all when the Heljans ones appeared. Lovely models. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Downendian Posted August 17, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2015 Although a big fan of Lima tooling (I have many Lima detailing projects on the go), if I were modelling the push-pull 27/1 27/2 combo I'd still start with Heljan models. Heljan 27s are thin on the ground, but can still be picked up for around £80 or so brand new, with patience I'm sure you'd find cheaper on eBay. Several years ago they released a 27/1 (27 103) but never a 27/2 as far as I am aware. A quick look on eBay shows £35-40 mark for Used Lima 27 models. Bearing in mind the cost of detailing parts and the vastly superior Heljan mech and under frame it maybe a false economy to start with Lima. However it is fun of course. However I'd still replace the Heljan scavenger grille as it's poor. Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YK 50A Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 I only had Hornby BSO (which was actually a BFK)... I always wondered why Hornby didn't put a yellow line above the windows and '1' on the passenger doors to give it a semblance of accuracy. I had one and did just that, the number was fictitious too, from a Mk2C as I remember. Off topic for this thread, carry on... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted August 17, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 17, 2015 I always wondered why Hornby didn't put a yellow line above the windows and '1' on the passenger doors to give it a semblance of accuracy. I had one and did just that, the number was fictitious too, from a Mk2C as I remember. Off topic for this thread, carry on... I think when first introduced by Triang Hornby (1969?) they did have the first class stripe and 1 markings. Probably done away with as a cost saving measure , although it may have been when they acquired Chrome window surrounds in 1973 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YK 50A Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 I think when first introduced by Triang Hornby (1969?) they did have the first class stripe and 1 markings. Probably done away with as a cost saving measure , although it may have been when they acquired Chrome window surrounds in 1973 The one I had (along with an SO with a TSO number if I recall) were from the late 70s and there were a couple of versions through the 70s and 80s (chrome then grey window frames). It's appeared since and more recently in a couple of sets, an incarnation of the Royal Train springs to mind. I've never seen one 'from the factory' in blue/grey marked as a BFK, although Hornby finally got it nearly right with NSE and Regional railways Mk2A BFKs, although they only managed to give the NSE version a correct running number. Alun Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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