coachmann Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 Exhibition in goods yard alongside Manchester Central station, if I'm not mistaken Coach? 1961 I believe it was. Midland Compound and Butler Henderson also there (as well as some smelly boxes on wheels. 1961 makes sense, but I wasn't sure if it was '62 or not. At this distance in time, I have to consider related factors and events in order to arrive at dates in the past. My driver and I worked the express bus services into Manchester and someone must have mentioned the exhibition to one of us. So off we went after our early shift. The stuffed Compound and Director meant nothing to me.....The attraction was Sir William. There was also a new Peak and an AC electric loco plus Mk.I sleeping car and possibly a diner. I took a photo from the cab of the electric. I used to unload our pre-war Morris Commercial Type CV11 BR parcels van every teatime at Man Central throughout 1959. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium cctransuk Posted November 10, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 10, 2017 Looking at my Sir William, I can actually see that it's quite possible to make it swing but then looking at Athol, that's a different ball game altogether. But then Athol didn't have an independent swivelling trailing truck. Regards, John Isherwood. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium cctransuk Posted November 10, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 10, 2017 It would be useful to see the visual impact of the modification if that were possible. Filming on my workbench test track is not easy. I will be completely frank and say that unless, like me, you're a pendant when it comes to the model following the behaviour of the prototype, it probably isn't worth the effort. However, it is possible to see that the trailing truck moves independently of the driving wheelbase in response to rail joints, etc. I fully accept that my preference for taking a piercing saw to a brand new model, so that it will behave a tiny bit more like the prototype, marks me out as somewhat eccentric - to say the least. The principle point of this exercise was to demonstrate that my suggestion to Hornby for a means by which the customer could choose to have either a fixed / unflanged or a swivelling / flanged trailing truck is perfectly feasible. I have been told here that it is a case of one or the other - that, demonstrably, is not true. My swivelling truck can still be fixed by inserting a second screw and substituting a flangeless wheelset; an arrangement that Hornby could have adopted at zero additional cost. Anyway, QED. Regards, John Isherwood. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Flying Pig Posted November 10, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 10, 2017 But then Athol didn't have an independent swivelling trailing truck. Regards, John Isherwood. Yes she did - all the LMS pacifics had pretty much the same arrangement of rear truck as shown in the Roche drawings posted above, particularly the plan views of the rear ends. However, prior to the final pair, they also had outside frames, which hide much of the truck. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium cctransuk Posted November 10, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 10, 2017 Yes she did - all the LMS pacifics had pretty much the same arrangement of rear truck as shown in the Roche drawings posted above, particularly the plan views of the rear ends. However, prior to the final pair, they also had outside frames, which hide much of the truck. Ah - my misunderstanding; I'd wrongly assumed that the trailing wheels ran in the outside frames. Not having seen one of the earlier design Stanier Pacifics from the current Hornby production, I can't offer an opinion as to whether a swivelling trailing truck is practicable. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post coachmann Posted November 10, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted November 10, 2017 (edited) I fitted new bogie wheels this morning. The following images (I promise they are the last!) show the importance of getting the colour right in the first instance, which Hornby has done. The first photo shows the MR/LMS crimson lake without the sun with no over-exposure. (click to enlarge) ... Then I waited until the sun broke through and altered the exposure so that no over-exposure took place again. It will be seen how chameleon in character the lake is. Published photos of real locos often depict the 'red' like this because photographers using relatively slow colour film needed sunny weather.... Finally, a close up of Alan Gibson 3' dia. 9 spoke Stanier bevel-rim bogie wheels (Ref G4836ST for anyone interested). I recommend removing the bogie before changing the wheels... Edited November 10, 2017 by coachmann 20 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froxfield2012 Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 I fitted new bogie wheels this morning. The following images (I promise they are the last!) show the importance of getting the colour right in the first instance, which Hornby has done. The first photo shows the MR/LMS crimson lake without the sun with no over-exposure. (click to enlarge) ... WEB Duchess 14.jpg Then I waited until the sun broke through and altered the exposure so that no over-exposure took place again. It will be seen how chameleon in character the lake is. Published photos of real locos often depict the 'red' like this because photographers using relatively slow colour film needed sunny weather.... WEB Duchess 15.jpg Finally, a close up of Alan Gibson 3' dia. 9 spoke Stanier bevel-rim bogie wheels (Ref G4836ST for anyone interested). I recommend removing the bogie before changing the wheels... WEB Duchess 16.jpg Excellent comparison shots. The second (sunlit) picture is much more how I "remember" the colour, although I can't say I ever remember seeing much sunlight break through the general murk in Camden shed!!! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froxfield2012 Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 Incidentally, this is the first time I have ever bought a locomotive only to see the price rise to the point where I could make a profit by selling on: largely because Rails honoured their pre-order price as I am sure others have done. The supply versus demand equation for this release is in stark contrast to the GWR(WR) King! And no, it's not for sale!! It joins the select group of models I have of locomotives that I have stood on, or ridden on. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Brasher Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 At the Godlingston trials I tested 'Duchess of Atholl' against a Hornby tender drive 'Princess Elizabeth.' The 'Duchess of Atholl' weighed 437 grammes and could comfortably pull 14 LMS coaches and started with the controller set at 40% whereas the Princess weighed 402 grammes and struggled with nine LMS coaches starting at 50% power. It also did not sound very authentic with the noise coming from the tender. I find calling the Princess class Princess Royal class and the Duchess class 'Princess Coronation Class' a bit confusing. The Princess is slightly longer than the Duchess and the real engine is more powerful but the Princess' wheels and boiler have smaller diameters The Hornby 'Duchess of Atholl' was more detailed than the 'Princess Elizabeth' and the Duchess' crimson lake livery looked more authentic. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 I fitted new bogie wheels this morning. The following images (I promise they are the last!) show the importance of getting the colour right in the first instance, which Hornby has done. The first photo shows the MR/LMS crimson lake without the sun with no over-exposure. (click to enlarge) ... WEB Duchess 14.jpg Then I waited until the sun broke through and altered the exposure so that no over-exposure took place again. It will be seen how chameleon in character the lake is. Published photos of real locos often depict the 'red' like this because photographers using relatively slow colour film needed sunny weather.... WEB Duchess 15.jpg Finally, a close up of Alan Gibson 3' dia. 9 spoke Stanier bevel-rim bogie wheels (Ref G4836ST for anyone interested). I recommend removing the bogie before changing the wheels... WEB Duchess 16.jpg Well I don't normally get too excited about wheels Coach but I have to admit they look great! Definitely on the 'to do' list once I pick mine up... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 The Princess is slightly longer than the Duchess and the real engine is more powerful but the Princess' wheels and boiler have smaller diameters I think the Princess' smaller wheels gave it more tractive effort. Power was not regularly quoted for steam locos. I would be surprised if the Duchess was less powerful of the 2. 6234 was measured at 3300 drawbar hp in 1939 when doing chimney tests, which is a record for a steam loco, so I suspect it was not measured very often either. Its design was as powerful as possible so it could manage the northbound climbs over Shap & Beattock more quickly with 300 miles worth of ash & clinker inefficiency holding it back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Midland Mole Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 I need Atholl in my life.... Alex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandwich station Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 whereas the Princess weighed 402 grammes and struggled with nine LMS coaches Years ago I tried this experiment with Duchess of Abercorn which basically is the same tender drive unit as the Princess and I managed to get it to pull 21 coaches but you have to make sure the traction tyres are completely oil free though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 (edited) It can depend on which coaches. Hornby's 90s stuff, now railroad are quite light whereas the modern detail stuff is much more weighty though freer running. I,ve had Sir William Stanier on 12 modern coaches so far, 6 Bachmann Mk 1s, 4 portholes and 2 Hornby Staniers. All handled with ease even on the light inclines. The Princess is basically a King in Pacific form. Shortly after this Stanier realised that GWR had not reach ultimate development of steam on went on to this great Duchess design that was much more efficient. Ivatt had nothing to say other than adding a few mid cons. Edited November 10, 2017 by JSpencer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandwich station Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 It can depend on which coaches. Hornby's 90s stuff, now railroad are quite light whereas the modern detail stuff is much more weighty though freer running. It would have been Hornby Staniers (now railroad) Mk1's and Mk2's Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 (edited) The Princess is basically a King in Pacific form. Shortly after this Stanier realised that GWR had not reach ultimate development of steam on went on to this great Duchess design that was much more efficient. Ivatt had nothing to say other than adding a few mid cons. Neither did Stanier apart from signing the 1930's Duchesses off. He was away in India and the detail work was largely the result of Stanier chief draughtsman Tom Coleman, who felt a better engine could be achieved than by simply building more 'Princesses'. Edited November 10, 2017 by coachmann 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vitalspark Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 Unfortunately, I had no Gibson Ref: G4836ST 3' diameter bevel-rim bogie wheels in the spares drawer, but they would add a lot to the character of these super models.... Agree and they will make a big difference. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingfisher24 Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 everybody. I have been looking forward to getting my hands on a model of 46256 for quite some time and it seems that there aren't any examples of the model to be had anywhere. I read somewhere that Hornby have halved the amount of models that they have sent to the uk, and as a result they are rare the the proverbial hen's tooth, is this the case? I only hope that Hornby send more examples over as, I'm sure I'm not the only one who is finding it hard to get hold of one. gary Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 Unfortunately, I had no Gibson Ref: G4836ST 3' diameter bevel-rim bogie wheels in the spares drawer, but they would add a lot to the character of these super models.... Agree and they will make a big difference. See post #1042. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Brasher Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 (edited) In reply to post 1055 it looks like demand has exceeded supply for R3555 Sir William Stanier. I would advise you to wait and see what Hornby produces next. If they make the other Ivatt Princess Coronation class you can rename and renumber it. I assume that City of Salford was identical Model Railways are a generally a buyers' market and demand is declining. At some point Hornby will produce more models of Princess Coronation class locomotives than there is a demand for and some models will also appear on the second hand market at reasonable prices. Edited November 11, 2017 by Robin Brasher Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_sterling Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 Hi Folks, I paid a visit to Locomotion this morning, wanting to clarify if the Hornby Duchess of Hamilton was a glossy finish. the recent National Collection in Miniature models have been somewhat toy like in appearance thanks to the overly deep gloss, not my cup of tea, and the reason (on a separate subject) that I declined ordering "The Gresley Collection". They didn't have any examples to hand or the pre production sample, but they did have a packaging cover sleeve and the finish looks in line with that on my SWS, which is very good indeed. So i've taken a chance on it, they should be in stock this coming week, partly funded by my parents as a belated 30th Birthday present. Looking forward to finally having a model of 46229! The last chance I had of it was when the loco drive Hornby Duchess was first launched 16 years ago, and only TMC did it, and a 14/15 year old couldn't afford TMC prices then, definitely not TMC prices now either! Incidentally No.5000 has the gloss finish, and in this case does a faithful justice to 5000 as it is today, which is overly glossy too! Paul. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ikks Posted November 11, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 11, 2017 (edited) In reply to post 1055 it looks like demand has exceeded supply for R3555 Sir William Stanier. I would advise you to wait and see what Hornby produces next. If they make the other Ivatt Princess Coronation class you can rename and renumber it. I assume that City of Salford was identical Model Railways are a generally a buyers' market and demand is declining. At some point Hornby will produce more models of Princess Coronation class locomotives than there is a demand for and some models will also appear on the second hand market at reasonable prices. Unfortunately Salford never carried late BR Maroon Mike Edited November 11, 2017 by ikks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Brasher Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 Unfortunately Salford never carried late BR Maroon Mike Perhaps Hornby will make a BR maroon 'Sir William Stanier' with a diagonal line on the cab side. Robin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 (edited) Perhaps Hornby will make a BR maroon 'Sir William Stanier' with a diagonal line on the cab side. Robin The 19 Duchesses left in traffic at September 1st were given it. Why do people want a livery feature that was only carried for a month, a flash in the pan. A collectors thing? Edited November 11, 2017 by coachmann Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad McCann Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 Having got my hands on one of these babies I can see what all the fuss is about; there truly is nothing like a big LMS pacific and to my admittedly amateur eyes, they really have captured the nuances that give a Duchess that special presence. I also have to agree with Larry that they've got the lake absolutely bob-on. I'm more excited about this model than I thought I'd be and I'm genuinely thrilled to have it in my possession. I really must get down the club and give 46256 a good workout. Meantime, it's enough just to stare at it! D. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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