Hornby Princess Coronation Class (Duchess)

[Brit70053]

We have had a (very) few comments about inaccuracies in the model which costs under £200.

What if you are paying nearly £6000 plus carriage for a gauge three live steam loco?

 

Here we have 6229 "City of Birmingham" in de-streamlined pre-war crimson lake with cylindrical smokebox:

 

http://www.kingscalelivesteam.co.uk/duchessgauge3.php

 

It's not just a sample picture as you can order it in that condition.

Anybody notice anything wrong?

 

Keith

If they'd named it 'CORONATION' it might just about have been excusable as a research slip up, given the ID swap that took place between the LMS streamlined versions of the class doyen and Duchess Of Hamilton for the USA tour, but to confuse the latter with City Of Birmingham ??

[Pete the Elaner]

If they'd named it 'CORONATION' it might just about have been excusable as a research slip up, given the ID swap that took place between the LMS streamlined versions of the class doyen and Duchess Of Hamilton for the USA tour, but to confuse the latter with City Of Birmingham ??

I have a blue streamliner, 6229 Duchess of Hamilton on my layout. I am sure others have done this too.

 

I suppose Birmingham & Hamilton could be confused because they are both preserved?

[Paul_sterling]

If they'd named it 'CORONATION' it might just about have been excusable as a research slip up, given the ID swap that took place between the LMS streamlined versions of the class doyen and Duchess Of Hamilton for the USA tour, but to confuse the latter with City Of Birmingham ??

 

Didn't Hamilton go to the US as Coronation, BUT in Crimson Lake livery?

 

Paul.

[melmerby]

Well, it does say representative.

What intrigues me is the correctly numbered tender.

Bernard

It says on the ordering that you can have CoB in Crimson Lake

It is wrong on several counts

It never carried Crimson Lake except as a streamliner. The model on show is a de-streamlined full smokebox version so is BR only, whichever identity.

6229 & 6235 went through the same changes

Crimson lake Streamlined, Wartime Black Streamlined, Lined Black Destreamlined sloping smokebox, BR Blue, Br Green. (Round top smokeboxes fitted in BR days).

(4)6229 also gained BR crimson late on (we know the rest since preservation & the subterfuge for the US visit)

 

I have e-mailed them so I would like to see what their answer is.

 

Keith

Edited November 9, 2017 by melmerby

[cctransuk]

It says on the ordering that you can have CoB in Crimson Lake

It is wrong on several counts

It never carried Crimson Lake except as a streamliner. The model on show is a de-streamlined full smokebox version so is BR only, whichever identity.

6229 & 6235 went through the same changes

Crimson lake Streamlined, Wartime Black Streamlined, Lined Black Destreamlined sloping smokebox, BR Blue, Br Green. (Round top smokeboxes fitted in BR days). (4)6229 also gained BR crimson late on (we know the rest since preservation & the subterfuge for the US visit)

 

I have e-mailed them so I would like to see what their answer is.

 

Keith

 

I think that you'll find that a lot of the Gauge 3 brigade are less 'picky' about historical accuracy that we 4mm. types.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Pete the Elaner]

It says on the ordering that you can have CoB in Crimson Lake

It is wrong on several counts

It never carried Crimson Lake except as a streamliner. The model on show is a de-streamlined full smokebox version so is BR only, whichever identity.

6229 & 6235 went through the same changes

Crimson lake Streamlined, Wartime Black Streamlined, Lined Black Destreamlined sloping smokebox, BR Blue, Br Green. (Round top smokeboxes fitted in BR days).

(4)6229 also gained BR crimson late on (we know the rest since preservation & the subterfuge for the US visit)

 

I have e-mailed them so I would like to see what their answer is.

 

Keith

Very, very close.

Records vary, but this seems to be part of their history:

CoB also carried wartime black for a brief period after being de-streamlined & was 1 of only 2 to do so (the other being 6223 Princess Alice). By the time the 3rd lost its casing (6222 Queen Mary), lined black had been decided & the first 2 quickly got a re-paint too.

The final 3 Staniers (53-55) were built with stepped running plates even though they were never streamliners, so they always had cylindrical smokeboxes. They were built in 1946 so carried 1946 black with deflectors from new...so these would be correct in LMS black.

 

The point in question is that for a de-streamliner to carry LMS crimson with a cylindrical smokebox & deflectors is 'rule 1' territory for several reasons.

 

Sorry but I am a bit of an obsessive with Duchesses in LMS days!

[ikks]

My SWS arrived today, picked up from the PO box by SWMBO  , explanation accepted  brilliant model Hornby have excelled themselves  have to save up for a green one without  the TTs stuff a beautiful  beautiful semi

 

Mike

Edited November 9, 2017 by ikks

[melmerby]

I think that you'll find that a lot of the Gauge 3 brigade are less 'picky' about historical accuracy that we 4mm. types.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Hence my original comment on price.

Still wouldn't mind one if I had a larger garden

Edited November 9, 2017 by melmerby

[farren]

Didn't Hamilton go to the US as Coronation, BUT in Crimson Lake livery?

 

Paul.

This one

[Paul_sterling]

This one

 

Thanks, Confirms my belief, the rest of the set that went was in matching Crimson too,

 

Paul. 

[Pete the Elaner]

Thanks, Confirms my belief, the rest of the set that went was in matching Crimson too,

 

Paul. 

Yes. They were intending to paint more sets in that livery but the war changed that.

Hamilton stayed in the US for a while because they did not want to risk it being destroyed during the voyage home. They were so desperate for the extra loco that in 1943, they decided to take the risk & ship it back anyway.

While it was away masquerading as Coronation, the real 6220 was running over here in blue livery carrying 6229 with Hamilton's nameplates. Names & numbers were swapped back soon after Hamilton arrived back in the UK.

[Paul_sterling]

Yes. They were intending to paint more sets in that livery but the war changed that.

Hamilton stayed in the US for a while because they did not want to risk it being destroyed during the voyage home. They were so desperate for the extra loco that in 1943, they decided to take the risk & ship it back anyway.

While it was away masquerading as Coronation, the real 6220 was running over here in blue livery carrying 6229 with Hamilton's nameplates. Names & numbers were swapped back soon after Hamilton arrived back in the UK.

 

Yes, that 6220 carried blue whilst 6229 was in the US, meant the NRM could genuinely have No.6229 displayed in Coronation blue (by virtue that there was a pseudo  "6229 Duchess of Hamilton"), or in Crimson lake, the latter as either 6220 or 6229.  

 

Paul. 

[coachmann]

Daddy Christams came with two parcels today, the other containing this lovely machine....

 

 

I found that the close coupling option fouls the DCC plug. I later nipped the end off so that the inner hole could be used....

 

Close up of the truck that seems to have revved up a few members....

 

 

Unfortunately, I had no Gibson Ref: G4836ST 3' diameter bevel-rim bogie wheels in the spares drawer, but they would add a lot to the character of these super models....

 

Edited November 9, 2017 by coachmann

[cctransuk]

Anyway, we'll see, as I fully intend to try the conversion - hence my request for the rear frame profile. If I am incorrect, I will gladly admit the fact.

 

 

Well - the dirty deed is done; Sir William now has a fully functional, swivelling trailing truck as per the prototype !

 

It was, if anything, easier than carrying out the same conversion on a Hornby Bulleid Pacific - mainly because the trailing truck frame is made of plastic in this instance.

 

Having removed the truck frame moulding from the chassis, the inside of the frames were lightly filed flush where the roller bearing lugs are glued in. The locking lug on the rear of the truck frame was removed, and the square screw fixing lug at the front was filed to a semi-circular outline, to permit the truck to swivel.

 

Fitting top hat pin-point bearings was dead easy - two pieces of 1.5 mm. thick plastic card 7 x 7mm., with 2.0mm. dia. holes drilled dead centre. The bearings were pressed into the holes and lightly filed flush with the back of the plastic squares.

 

The plastic squares were then glued in place behind the truck frame sides, to line up with the moulded bearing centres; plastic solvent bonded well to the truck frame. The use of 7 x 7mm. squares ensures that the bottom edges of the squares are level with the bottom of the truck sides, and the sides of the squares line up with the moulded hornguides on the truck frame.

 

Whilst the glue was drying, the flanged truck wheels were removed from their axle; opened up right through at 2.0mm. diameter, and then press- fitted to a 26mm. long pinpoint axle. The wheelset was then sprung between the pin-point tophat bearings by carefully flexing the truck frame sides.

 

Then came the scary bit !! The outline of the prototype rear frames was traced from the Roche drawing, and checked against the Rowledge drawing - they matched ! The frame outline was cut out from the tracing, and placed on both sides of the model's mainframe casting in turn, whilst the lower frame profile was scribed into the black paint. This revealed that a wedge shape needed to be cut out of the Hornby casting; this being the fictional frame extension around the bearing slot for the rear axle.

 

Only two straight cuts were needed with the piercing saw, the chassis being wrapped in bubble-wrap during the surgery. Sawing mazak is never fun or fast, but the cuts required very little tidying-up using a 6" file.

 

It was now possible to refit the trailing truck, using a thin brass washer on the screw to retain it, rather than the thick nylon washer supplied by Hornby to lock the truck frame in place.

 

Onto the track, and power was applied - and Sir William trundled off down the test track and through the Peco medium radius points with no fuss whatsoever.

 

The satin black paint will come out tomorrow to cover the evidence of the surgery, and that will be that.

 

.... and for those who still maintain that all this was a waste of time, (or impossible) - you CAN detect that the trailing truck now has its own independant movement, relative to the rest of the chassis.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited November 9, 2017 by cctransuk

[coachmann]

I took these photos 55 years ago (gulp!) when the real loco was fresh out of shops. As usual, I wasted film on arty-farty ....

 

The rear pony truck....

 

The 3' bevel-rim bogie wheels are clearly seen. Also note the position of the ATC timing reservior under the running plate...

 

Pipework from the ATC vacuum reservoir cylinder were not necessarily neat either....

Edited November 9, 2017 by coachmann

[Buhar]

Well - the dirty deed is done; Sir William now has a fully functional, swivelling trailing truck as per the prototype !

 

 

.... and for those who still maintain that all this was a waste of time, (or impossible) - you CAN detect that the trailing truck now has its own independant movement, relative to the rest of the chassis.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Well, John, you put your piercing saw where your mouth is and invalidated the guarantee on a pretty expensive piece of kit.  I'm pleased it went to plan and admire your courage.  I don't suppose you happened to take any photos as you went along?

 

Edit to remove possible ambiguity (original is John's reply)

Edited November 9, 2017 by Buhar

[melmerby]

Very, very close.

Records vary, but this seems to be part of their history:

CoB also carried wartime black for a brief period after being de-streamlined & was 1 of only 2 to do so (the other being 6223 Princess Alice). By the time the 3rd lost its casing (6222 Queen Mary), lined black had been decided & the first 2 quickly got a re-paint too.

The final 3 Staniers (53-55) were built with stepped running plates even though they were never streamliners, so they always had cylindrical smokeboxes. They were built in 1946 so carried 1946 black with deflectors from new...so these would be correct in LMS black.

 

The point in question is that for a de-streamliner to carry LMS crimson with a cylindrical smokebox & deflectors is 'rule 1' territory for several reasons.

 

Sorry but I am a bit of an obsessive with Duchesses in LMS days!

I got it almost right!

 

I got a reply to the e-mail to say the advert was incorrect and it is amended in the catalogue with the rider that the customer can have his/her livery of choice!

So all's good then.

 

Keith

[cctransuk]

Well, John, you put your piercing saw where your mouth is and invalidated the guarantee on a pretty expensive piece of kit.  Well done.  I don't suppose you happened to take any photos as you went along?

 

I did - and have no regrets; I've yet to have recourse to a guarantee in well over fifty years of modelling.

 

No photos, I'm afraid - what is required is pretty straightforward, and easily described.

 

Sorry,

John Isherwood.

[Colin_McLeod]

Many thanks John for that detailed description of your modification of SWS. I have copied it to a document for future guidance when I get a chance to try the same thing.

[sandwich station]

.... and for those who still maintain that all this was a waste of time, (or impossible) - you CAN detect that the trailing truck now has its own independant movement, relative to the rest of the chassis.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

We need evidence John.

[sandwich station]

Looking at my Sir William, I can actually see that it's quite possible to make it swing but then looking at Athol, that's a different ball game altogether.

[Bernard Lamb]

Looking at my Sir William, I can actually see that it's quite possible to make it swing but then looking at Athol, that's a different ball game altogether.

 

Really?

I had heard stories that some of those Scottish ladies had a reputation for being swingers.  

Bernard

[Pete the Elaner]

I got it almost right!

 

You sound like you're being hard on yourself.?

 

I am a nut on this class but only in their LMS days because there is only so much I can model.

I have even made a chart on when they were painted, de-streamlined etc. & am continually amending this when I see things I never previously knew. How sad is that?

[LNER4479]

I took these photos 55 years ago (gulp!) when the real loco was fresh out of shops.]

Exhibition in goods yard alongside Manchester Central station, if I'm not mistaken Coach? 1961 I believe it was. Midland Compound and Butler Henderson also there (as well as some smelly boxes on wheels.

[MikeParkin65]

We need evidence John.

It would be useful to see the visual impact of the modification if that were possible.