Class 08s without a train brake?

[18B]

Evening

 

I was reading a BR Database book from the 1980s and it said that ten early 08s were built without a vacuum brake............ then a following issue of the book shows them as having been built with a vacuum brake........ contradicting itself?  

 

were the ten ever built without a vacuum brake or not?

[Davexoc]

They appear to have been built with vacuum trains brakes and loco air brakes. Doesn't make sense to not have train brakes, because if you wanted to shunt a fitted freight or rake of coaches without, someone would have to walk the length of the train pulling all the release cords before you could move it.

 

Dave

[stovepipe]

Yes it's true D3092 to D3101 were not fitted with vacuum brakes when built. The were all withdrawn by about 1972 I think.

 

Here's a photo of D3095. Perhaps they were all SR based?

 

Shunter D3095 + Short Train at Hove, 19 Aug 1964 by Ian Nolan, on Flickr

[18B]

Yes it's true D3092 to D3101 were not fitted with vacuum brakes when built. The were all withdrawn by about 1972 I think.

 

Here's a photo of D3095. Perhaps they were all SR based?

 

Shunter D3095 + Short Train at Hove, 19 Aug 1964 by Ian Nolan, on Flickr

 

forgive my ignorance on this, so does trhat mean they had no brake for braking a train, and only a loco brake?

[stovepipe]

forgive my ignorance on this, so does trhat mean they had no brake for braking a train, and only a loco brake?

 

Yes, that is correct.

 

It seems the whole batch of 10 were SR based throughout their 17 year existance.

 

Edit: The 100+ Class 11s were also not fitted with vacuum brakes - in service from 1940s to 1972. There was plenty of unfitted wagons around in that period, and I'm sure plenty of shunting and trip working had to be run unfitted, even if the train engine was fitted with vacuum brakes.

[Davexoc]

forgive my ignorance on this, so does trhat mean they had no brake for braking a train, and only a loco brake?

They would only have a loco brake. Looking at the page linked below, there are a couple of other big gaps in the list where renumbering into TOPS didn't take place, so maybe there were more.

Interestingly, 13101 (D3101) was withdrawn in May 1972 and was preserved at the GCR. It is still there but has vacuum brakes now, so when were they fitted?

Also several of that group were modified and exported to Liberia, with air brakes.

 

http://www.railway-centre.com/uploads/7/2/2/3/7223531/class_08-13_fleet_list.pdf

 

Dave

[18B]

Yes, that is correct.

 

It seems the whole batch of 10 were SR based throughout their 17 year existance.

 

Edit: The 100+ Class 11s were also not fitted with vacuum brakes - in service from 1940s to 1972. There was plenty of unfitted wagons around in that period, and I'm sure plenty of shunting and trip working had to be run unfitted, even if the train engine was fitted with vacuum brakes.

 

Indeed that's what I thought, plenty of unfitted wagon shunting to do.......

[stovepipe]

They would only have a loco brake. Looking at the page linked below, there are a couple of other big gaps in the list where renumbering into TOPS didn't take place, so maybe there were more.

Interestingly, 13101 (D3101) was withdrawn in May 1972 and was preserved at the GCR. It is still there but has vacuum brakes now, so when were they fitted?

Also several of that group were modified and exported to Liberia, with air brakes.

 

http://www.railway-centre.com/uploads/7/2/2/3/7223531/class_08-13_fleet_list.pdf

 

Dave

 

I think the other gaps in the early series are for the Crossley and Blackstone engined locos which did seem to be vacuum brake fitted.

 

D3121 + D3122 by John Neave, on Flickr

[Clive Mortimore]

 

I think the other gaps in the early series are for the Crossley and Blackstone engined locos which did seem to be vacuum brake fitted.

 

D3121 + D3122 by John Neave, on Flickr

Cheers for the photo link, Stovepipe.

 

They appear to have a different exhaust to that of the English Electric and Blackstone engineed locos. I feel a modification of an existing model coming on.  D3121 looks like she is still in black livery.

[The Johnster]

Plenty of steam locos around with no train brake equipment at the time these 08s were built, and for freight shunting a train brake was not necessary.  Shunting, trip work, and unfitted mineral traffic was mostly done with no train brake, and even quite large locos, for example 04 class 2-8-0s, only had the loco's steam brake.  Some of the EM1 electric locos for the Manchester-Sheffield-Wath scheme also had no train brakes.

[Clive Mortimore]

Cheers for the photo link, Stovepipe.

 

They appear to have a different exhaust to that of the English Electric and Blackstone engineed locos. I feel a modification of an existing model coming on.  D3121 looks like she is still in black livery.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnneave/4295176439/in/album-72157623137819273/

 

D3122 again, it has a style of engine room doors, the last two, that I have not seen before. They have a X stamped on them. It also has its BR emblem upside down, a livery feature I have not come across before.

[Swindon 123]

They would only have a loco brake. Looking at the page linked below, there are a couple of other big gaps in the list where renumbering into TOPS didn't take place, so maybe there were more.

Interestingly, 13101 (D3101) was withdrawn in May 1972 and was preserved at the GCR. It is still there but has vacuum brakes now, so when were they fitted?

Also several of that group were modified and exported to Liberia, with air brakes.

 

http://www.railway-centre.com/uploads/7/2/2/3/7223531/class_08-13_fleet_list.pdf

 

Dave

3101 spent many years working for ARC at Loughborough. It wasn't vacuum braked at that time so probably was fitted with vacuum brakes when moved to the Great central Rly. Photo here of it in ARC service in 1976.

https://flic.kr/p/M7zSZe

 

Paul J.

 

PS. Yes interesting doors on D3122. I don't think I've seen that style on a class 08/9/10 before either.

[penyghent]

Plenty of steam locos around with no train brake equipment at the time these 08s were built, and for freight shunting a train brake was not necessary.  Shunting, trip work, and unfitted mineral traffic was mostly done with no train brake, and even quite large locos, for example 04 class 2-8-0s, only had the loco's steam brake.  Some of the EM1 electric locos for the Manchester-Sheffield-Wath scheme also had no train brakes.

As far as I am aware, all the EM1s had vacuum brakes (some later Air as well), can you corroborate saying some were not fitted?

[Pannier Tank]

They appear to have been built with vacuum trains brakes and loco air brakes. Doesn't make sense to not have train brakes, because if you wanted to shunt a fitted freight or rake of coaches without, someone would have to walk the length of the train pulling all the release cords before you could move it.

 

Dave

When these Loco's were built there were still many unfitted Freight Trains running on BR. Even Loco's fitted with train brakes were marshalling unfitted Freight Trains.

[cheesysmith]

As far as I am aware, all the EM1s had vacuum brakes (some later Air as well), can you corroborate saying some were not fitted?

All the EM-1s were fitted with train brakes. The clue is the name, Electric Mixed traffic locos. If they didn't have train brakes they would not have been allowed to haul passinger trains, as these require a continuous brake by law. The EM-1 actually had the most braking fitted to any British loco, in that they had loco air brakes, train vac brakes, regenerative braking, which was late modified to include rheostatic braking because the regenerative braking was very poor at low speeds and there were a few accidents in the first years stopping unbraked mineral trains (and the loads were reduced to 650tons to make sure, from the 750tons allowed originally). Some were later fitted with train air brakes, so including the hand brake they had 6 different braking systems. Apart from the block trains, most freights on the wood head ran unfitted, as the locos were more than able to stop the trains, and there was instructions for the guards not to use the brakes on the brakevans but to leave it to the loco and driver. The EM-2s were never fitted with the rheostatic brake modification or the air brakes whilst with BR as they didnt work the heavy unfitted freights.

[PenrithBeacon]

By 'train brake' do you mean 'automatic vacuum brake'?

[The Stationmaster]

By 'train brake' do you mean 'automatic vacuum brake'?

 

That is what it means in reality (even if not phrased that way).  The more remarkable thing about the 350s is that so many were fitted with train vacuum brakes from new although presumably that was no doubt a carry on from many steam 0-6-0Ts being fitted with train vacuum brakes plus the fact that the low speed of the 350s was not originally seen as a potential hindrance for train working.

 

I think the only times I have ever seen one using the vacuum has been when they have worked/shunted ecs or were shunting very heavy stone trains - certainly completely unnecessary (in fact a downright nuisance) for ordinary shunting and freight trip working as they have pretty good braking characteristics and and at one place where I worked some of the Shunters never even bothered to bag up the vacuum (especially the one I caught out one Saturday loose shunting a buffet car.

[Fat Controller]

That is what it means in reality (even if not phrased that way).  The more remarkable thing about the 350s is that so many were fitted with train vacuum brakes from new although presumably that was no doubt a carry on from many steam 0-6-0Ts being fitted with train vacuum brakes plus the fact that the low speed of the 350s was not originally seen as a potential hindrance for train working.

 

I think the only times I have ever seen one using the vacuum has been when they have worked/shunted ecs or were shunting very heavy stone trains - certainly completely unnecessary (in fact a downright nuisance) for ordinary shunting and freight trip working as they have pretty good braking characteristics and and at one place where I worked some of the Shunters never even bothered to bag up the vacuum (especially the one I caught out one Saturday loose shunting a buffet car.

I think the trains of Twin-Bolsters, Bolster Es and Plate-fits from Duport Old Castle to Llandeilo Junction used to have the brake pipes coupled.

[russ p]

It always amazes me how many were either dual or air braked the vacuum was rarely used and so was the air brake.

The big marshalling yards didn't use train brakes and engines used as shed pilots did either.

I suppose for today's operators who do use the air brake for shunting .

Mind when I worked for GB about 10 years ago I was on the pilot at Whitemoor and we were just about done on nights, the shunter said to me we have got twenty auto ballasters to shunt, we'll put the pipe on and go and have a cup of tea as there is no air in them.

I said f### the pipe let's turn them over and get away now!

Thats what we did and the 350 had no problems stopping nearly two thousand tons. I might not have done it if it was wet but absolutely no problems in the dry

[45125]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnneave/4295176439/in/album-72157623137819273/

 

D3122 again, it has a style of engine room doors, the last two, that I have not seen before. They have a X stamped on them. It also has its BR emblem upside down, a livery feature I have not come across before.

 

Battery box plate just put on upside-down, easily done...........................

[The Johnster]

As far as I am aware, all the EM1s had vacuum brakes (some later Air as well), can you corroborate saying some were not fitted?

 

 

All the EM-1s were fitted with train brakes. The clue is the name, Electric Mixed traffic locos. If they didn't have train brakes they would not have been allowed to haul passinger trains, as these require a continuous brake by law. The EM-1 actually had the most braking fitted to any British loco, in that they had loco air brakes, train vac brakes, regenerative braking, which was late modified to include rheostatic braking because the regenerative braking was very poor at low speeds and there were a few accidents in the first years stopping unbraked mineral trains (and the loads were reduced to 650tons to make sure, from the 750tons allowed originally). Some were later fitted with train air brakes, so including the hand brake they had 6 different braking systems. Apart from the block trains, most freights on the wood head ran unfitted, as the locos were more than able to stop the trains, and there was instructions for the guards not to use the brakes on the brakevans but to leave it to the loco and driver. The EM-2s were never fitted with the rheostatic brake modification or the air brakes whilst with BR as they didnt work the heavy unfitted freights.

A guard in a brake van does not just use his brake in order to help control the train, he uses it to protect himself from the violent bump he would otherwise receive if the loose coupled train was being braked by just the locomotive, no matter how capable of stopping the train the loco was.  On a 60 wagon train of empties, if the rear is not controlled by the van brake, the van, travelling at 25 mph. will hit the stopped portion of the train brick wall style.  I cannot imagine any experienced guard obeying such an obviously dangerous instruction.  

 

If the train is unfitted and with instanter couplings in the long position, when the loco is braked the first wagon, whose buffers are separated from the loco's by about a foot, buffers up against it at a difference of perhaps half a mile an hour.  But the next wagon hits the first after a bit more braking and the difference is now 1mph.  Things build up along the length of the train as the wagons buffer up and the loco takes the weight, and are quite violent by the time you get to the van!  A sudden unexpected brick wall stop from 25mph with long instanters, or 45mph with short ones for that matter, will wrap you around the stove pipe unless you are in the seat braced for it...

 

Early photos of EM1s show no vacuum hoses on the front of some locos on unfitted trains; perhaps the hoses had been removed.  Loco air brakes are not the same thing as the train air brakes later fitted to EM1s; a loco air brake is a 'straight air' brake which requires air pressure to apply it in the same way that a steam brake requires steam pressure, which is the reason that locomotives are also provided with handbrakes, otherwise they would be unbraked when the air or steam pressure dropped.  Train air brakes are held off by air pressure, thus satisfying the need for train brakes to be 'automatic', fail safe; if air pressure is lost due to a failure of the compressor or a break in the pipe, the brakes apply themselves automatically.  Of course, EM!s were retrofitted with train air brake equipment in order to work MGR and other air braked freight trains in their later years, AFAIK none carried dual vacuum and air train brakes, but I would not swear to this.  Some vacuum braked EM1s were also fitted with steam heating boilers for passenger work.

[russ p]

I've never seen an EM1 without a vac pipe other than the air only ones. Even the prototype , Tommy was vac braked

[caradoc]

Some of the EM1/Class 76 locos were dual-braked.

 

Back to the OT, in the 1972 Locoshed book the allocations of 3092-3101 were:

 

3092 73C (Hither Green)

3093 5A (Crewe Diesel)

3094 75C (Selhurst)

3095 5A

3096 75C

3097 73C

3098 5A

3099 73F (Ashford Chart Leacon)

3100 75C

3101 73F

[brian daniels]

Here is 76009 which is duel braked and 76037 which is air only but on a loose coupled train!