cal.n Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 Please understand that I am not complaining about the cost of a sound chip and I think that the money is well worth it for the realism it adds, I am just interested to know why a sound decoder is so expensive when other technology seems to get cheaper. Is it a particular electronic component on the chip itself? The hours needed to record and create a sound file? Economies of scale? Something else? Please move if this is in the wrong section. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted April 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 4, 2017 The reblows usually cost around £15-20 to cover the recording and editing. The main difference in cost is the chip itself and these have come down a lot in recent years. From £120 odd a few years back you can now get the loksound select for around £90 and Soundtraxx econami chips for £70. The cost of the individual components on the board I guess dictate that and assembly of more components on the board as these aren't produced in vast numbers I doubt as much automation is used. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steven B Posted April 4, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 4, 2017 The circuit boards will be populated using automatic machines. Even for small runs they're worth using. The only manual work would be hand-soldering wires and pins for some of the older devices (e.g. 6 pin often used in N Gauge). Based on the cost of components there should only be £10-20 difference in price. The market for decoders may be small compared to a TV of mobile phone, but they're still being made in the 100,000s as they're used world-wide. The Hornby TTS decoders at £40 each are probably closer to the price we should be paying. £20 on top to get it blown with a sound project wouldn't be unreasonable. Happy modelling. Steven B. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted April 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 4, 2017 The cost may seem proportionally more but they need to make enough margin to carry on development of new products and tech support. Remember most of the sound chip makers are small concerns who maybe carry a range of decoders and a DCC controller. They don't have the other lines to balance out development costs and more importantly risk like Hornby do so they need a larger margin. The manual input on the chip is enough to push up the price a fair bit over full automation and why some come with the harness plug no doubt. Problem there is size as the micro chips for N and 009 need to save every mm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris M Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 I think there are a huge number of lines of code required for each locomotive. Writing the code and testing will cost quite a lot in terms of time. I expect the volumes for each loco aren't that large so the cost of writing and testing the code could well be a significant part of the cost of each unit. The premier sound chips for US G scale locos are around £250. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisr40 Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 The circuit boards will be populated using automatic machines. Even for small runs they're worth using. The only manual work would be hand-soldering wires and pins for some of the older devices (e.g. 6 pin often used in N Gauge). Based on the cost of components there should only be £10-20 difference in price. The market for decoders may be small compared to a TV of mobile phone, but they're still being made in the 100,000s as they're used world-wide. The Hornby TTS decoders at £40 each are probably closer to the price we should be paying. £20 on top to get it blown with a sound project wouldn't be unreasonable. Happy modelling. Steven B. Will be interesting to see what happens later this year when the TTS chips become available stand alone. If they are a success ( which i think they will be ) then Hornby may broaden the range and people like me who to be frank are more than happy if it sounds about right or somewhere close may chose them over higher fidelity but more expensive alternatives. It's a personal choice but it depends how seriously you take playing trains and how much you like to have fun when you do it. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cal.n Posted April 4, 2017 Author Share Posted April 4, 2017 Will be interesting to see what happens later this year when the TTS chips become available stand alone. If they are a success ( which i think they will be ) then Hornby may broaden the range and people like me who to be frank are more than happy if it sounds about right or somewhere close may chose them over higher fidelity but more expensive alternatives. I think the Hornby chips will be a success, but however much they expand the range, they are ultimately limited to prototypes that Hornby produce Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 The reblows usually cost around £15-20 to cover the recording and editing. The main difference in cost is the chip itself and these have come down a lot in recent years. From £120 odd a few years back you can now get the loksound select for around £90 and Soundtraxx econami chips for £70. The cost of the individual components on the board I guess dictate that and assembly of more components on the board as these aren't produced in vast numbers I doubt as much automation is used. Reblows at some places are free except for return postage. SWD is one place for instance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tractor_37260 Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 Reblows at some places are free except for return postage. SWD is one place for instance. Only recently found this out - if you have the original purchase receipt SWD will update their decoders FOC with future updates - and if you have a Lokprogrammer and get the new sound file via the net - NO postage charges either !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted April 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 4, 2017 Unlimited reblows or are there conditions attached? It's not something they advertise in the website that I can see. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tractor_37260 Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 Unlimited reblows or are there conditions attached? It's not something they advertise in the website that I can see. Don't know if it's unlimited or not - but ask Steve/Caroline at SWD - I was informed of this when speaking to Caroline recently - still hunting for a receipt - argh !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted April 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 4, 2017 Ah yes Biffo also offers upgrades so it's tied to their product as I expected not just a free reblow as suggested above Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobbyhorse Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 It's good to see that ESU is expanding its U.K. sound files which are free. The US hasn't paid for the sound files for a long time, you just buy the chip and the programmer. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tractor_37260 Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 Ah yes Biffo also offers upgrades so it's tied to their product as I expected not just a free reblow as suggested above Only FREE for decoders that are original SWD sound files, with a purchase receipt - ie either supplied direct by SWD or by Rails etc it still applies............. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 For details about reblows from SWD look at the bottom of their news page. But of course you have to buy your decoder and sounds from SWD. If you buy from Biffo you have to do what he wants for his reblows. Simple really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 It's good to see that ESU is expanding its U.K. sound files which are free. The US hasn't paid for the sound files for a long time, you just buy the chip and the programmer. Simon Their is a difference. The free UK sounds offered by ESU via their website are not the same as ones offered by UK retailers. Big big difference. But a good way of playing for free if you have a Lok programmer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 As with all decoders - the cost of the hardware for a sound decoder is pretty much the same whether it is a rubbish sound decoder or a really good one. You are looking at around £10 worth of components - so £40 retail by the time it has been put together and all the taxes and markups have been added is about right. There is a lot of software in a sound decoder compared to a motor only decoder and that takes a lot of development effort, so this will differentiate the likes of TTS etc. from the more sophisticated ESU and Zimo types which is why you see a big price differential. ESU and Zimo see that their decoders are sufficiently better than the others to justify a big margin here even though they have probably already recouped their development costs for the current products. Add to that the sound project, and you again see another chunk of cost. Lots of work involved getting the sounds and editing them and fettling how they play - this is a really big job and it has to be done separately for every loco type. This is likely to be the biggest cost chunk of a decoder in the future. Currently around £20 but it does vary a bit. Adding wires compared to a direct plug decoder adds about £1, but we are seeing this cost being absorbed now. Not so many locos with the old NEM651, NEM652 or no socket at all left. The other big chunk of cost we are seeing is the 'Large scale supplement' which decoder manufacturers and content producers are adding to the price of large scale decoders because 'the market can stand it' rather than because they are adding any value not available on the smaller decoders. This appears to be in the order of £100 or more at the moment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisr40 Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 I think the Hornby chips will be a success, but however much they expand the range, they are ultimately limited to prototypes that Hornby produce Agreed, but there is also the element of has it got the right number of cylinders / chuffs per revolution and can i live with a whistle which maybe isn't spot on. It all comes down to how fastidious you want to be. They will not suit everyone but I like them and my kids think they are great. In my loft there is no one to tut that the chip is unprototypical so I just relax and enjoy playing trains. Each to their own. I have a number of loksound fitted locos and my ears are not educated enough to pick out the nuances that others obviously do so TTS will do me and my wallet fine. Enjoy the hobby it isn't meant to be an exam ☺ Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John K Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 Sound chips are expensive because we are buying them at that price. If we all stopped buying they would miraculously get cheaper. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted April 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 4, 2017 Sound chips are expensive because we are buying them at that price. If we all stopped buying they would miraculously get cheaper. John Or get discontinued if you don't buy then you risk the product disappearing. A lower priced competitor like TTS gaining market share is a better incentive for the manufacturers than that policy Sound chips all used to be in the hundreds of pounds, prices are dropping slowly as the market expands. Sorry but many seem to think niche products can be closer to consumer electronics but unless you can just program an existing board they need bigger margins because they sell in thousands or tens of thousands not hundreds of thousands each year. Are they supposed to live on minimum wage, does Biff have a Rolls Royce hidden away? How much does an iPhone actually cost to make? "iPhone 7 costs Apple £174 to make – £425 less than what most UK customers must pay for it, according to analysts." Source https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/iphone-7-costs-apple-make-manufacture-a7329016.html%3Famp So a global company can get away with roughly 70% margin to cover costs but they sell in millions so can deal with smaller margins. This is like the story of a Hornby loco costing a fiver, it doesn't compare like with like Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cal.n Posted April 4, 2017 Author Share Posted April 4, 2017 Or get discontinued if you don't buy then you risk the product disappearing. A lower priced competitor like TTS gaining market share is a better incentive for the manufacturers than that policy Agreed Best case scenario, cheap standalone TTS dominates and expands the market for sound chips, eventually more people will seek higher quality stuff and Biff/Howes/SWD prices drop This assumes that there are people who would use sound if they could afford it that don't currently? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliepetty Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 Agreed Best case scenario, cheap standalone TTS dominates and expands the market for sound chips, eventually more people will seek higher quality stuff and Biff/Howes/SWD prices drop This assumes that there are people who would use sound if they could afford it that don't currently? If the 'Very Rich' Sound manufacturer could buy the decoders as we used/sold them that would be brilliant, but currently the only people getting rich is probably ESU & Zimo. The last time I looked we had £30,000 + worth of stock and 60 Sound fitted locomotives for demonstration purposes, along with 'Eleven' O Gauge locomotives and 40+ sound fitted Bachmann & Hornby locomotives in stock, oh I forgot the 200 Earth movers just arrived and the 4000, 3 Watt Bass Reflex speakers we got last year along with 1000 O gauge speakers in two sizes we arranged for Telford last September. When we went to Ali Pali the stand cost £220.00, at York it Costs £180.00, Bristol is £140.00 & Railex is £180.00, Oh forgot Glasgow was £200 & Warley £280. So when we sold 38 at Ali Pali that worked out at £5.79 per decoder, Oh I forgot the Fuel, Hotel, Meals at Night and Leaving Fri at 10.00AM and getting home Sunday at 11.00pm. Now what is the current minimum wage!!! Not quite as straight forward as some make it seem. I suggest YOU have a go your self, not a way to millions ££££££££. Charlie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 I fully appreciate the massive improvements made by Charlie/Paul Chetter and one or two others (RealDrive for example) in both the way that the sound chips work (e.g. on the new V4 LokSound chips), and the improved chips and speakers being offered, and there is a price to be paid for that. What I do not understand are the equivalent prices being charged by the likes of Howes (whose chips were, undoubtedly the best around for some years) which have not moved on as significantly, but whose prices seem only to rise, apart from one occasion last year when they fell as the "pound had risen". If the component cost is such a relatively small part of the total, why do such significant fluctuations occur? Tight margins cannot be the only explanation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steven B Posted April 5, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 5, 2017 I think Charlie's just proved that the way to make a small fortune from model railways is to start with a large fortune! Happy modelling. Steven B. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trains4U Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 it is probably worth bearing in mind, that decoder prices haven't really risen with inflation. when I began selling loksound decoders about 10 years ago, the RRP was £102.50 Today the RRP is £107 They have fluctuated, between around £95 and £110 due to exchange rates, but the base Euro price has remained fairly stable. By Comparison, rolling stock prices have roughly doubled. So proportionally, they are much cheaper than they were ten years ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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