Britannia 70013 Oliver Cromwell

[TravisM]

It's well known that BR Standard, Britannia 70013 Oliver Cromwell was the last steam loco to have a full overhaul and was one of the loco's used on the Fifteen Guinea Special but what did it do between being overhaul and hauling that train?  I seem to remember reading ages ago it was already booked for the train and was kind of kept out of harms way in case something happened to it.

 

Was it based at Kingmoor, Carnforth, Lostock Hall or one of the other last remaining North Western sheds?

 

Julian Sprott

[PenrithBeacon]

Shedded at Kingmore 67-68.

The locomotive was used for tours at the weekends and normal traffic weekdays.

Regards

[TravisM]

Shedded at Kingmore 67-68.

The locomotive was used for tours at the weekends and normal traffic weekdays.

Regards

 

Was it overhauled in 66 or 67?  I know it was late.

 

Julian Sprott

[APOLLO]

I'm sure she was transferred to Carnforth when Kingmoor (the steam shed) closed to steam on 1st January 1968 and all the other Brits went to scrap (70000 was already preserved).

 

She was always kept clean, used for many specials etc in the weeks before the end of steam. 

 

Brit15

[Old Gringo]

Was it overhauled in 66 or 67?  I know it was late.

 

Julian Sprott

 

Emerged from Crewe Works on 2nd February 1967, after major overhaul. 

 

(Information from "Oliver Cromwell and B.R. Standard Pacific Locomotives" by Robert Adamson, a Famous British Locomotives paperback by Friends of the NRM, 2007, ISBN 0-9546685-7-X)

[micknich2003]

 I believe it was the last steam loco' to also be turned out fully lined. Here's my photo' Carnforth Thursday 1 August 1968.

[TravisM]

If 70013 was the last to be overhauled, I wonder what the last few were and at what works?

 

Julian Sprott

[Bon Accord]

If 70013 was the last to be overhauled, I wonder what the last few were and at what works?

 

Julian Sprott

 

The last BR steam locomotive to be overhauled in Scotland was 62059 which left Cowlairs on 22nd September 1966.

62059 was allocated to Blyth North (52F) at the time and was withdrawn on 12th February 1967, a mere four and a half months later.

[PenrithBeacon]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BR_Standard_Class_7

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BR_Standard_Class_7_70013_Oliver_Cromwell

[EddieB]

If 70013 was the last to be overhauled, I wonder what the last few were and at what works?

 

Julian Sprott

  

Emerged from Crewe Works on 2nd February 1967, after major overhaul. 

 

(Information from "Oliver Cromwell and B.R. Standard Pacific Locomotives" by Robert Adamson, a Famous British Locomotives paperback by Friends of the NRM, 2007, ISBN 0-9546685-7-X)

The emergence of 70013 from Crewe is mentioned in the RCTS book (volume 1 of the BR Standard Locos series) which also notes that 70004 was the last loco to be overhauled at Darlington (but not necessarily the last loco to leave the works).

[TravisM]

   The emergence of 70013 from Crewe is mentioned in the RCTS book (volume 1 of the BR Standard Locos series) which also notes that 70004 was the last loco to be overhauled at Darlington (but not necessarily the last loco to leave the works).

 

Well, complete as many left in 16t mineral wagons lol.  Have I hit a nerve?     

 

Julian Sprott

Edited October 6, 2017 by jools1959

[Old Gringo]

   The emergence of 70013 from Crewe is mentioned in the RCTS book (volume 1 of the BR Standard Locos series) which also notes that 70004 was the last loco to be overhauled at Darlington (but not necessarily the last loco to leave the works).

 

It is unfortunate that of the remaining Britannia Class Pacifics in the autumn of 1966, 70004 wasn't selected for that famous last overhaul and repaint, rather than 'lucky' 70013.

 

There are a couple of reasons for making this (possibly) controversial statement, over fifty years after the fact, but here we go:

 

70004, 'William Shakespeare', was out-shopped from Crewe in March 1951 with an exhibition finish (polished cylinder covers, wheel rims, etc.) and was despatched directly to London, to become an exhibit at the South Bank site of the Festival of Britain. 

 

Following the exhibition duties, the locomotive went to Stewarts Lane shed in September, to be joined by 70014, 'Iron Duke'.  Both locomotives then worked from Stewarts Lane shed for seven years, and were kept in immaculate condition to work the prestigious 'Golden Arrow' express (London Victoria to Dover and then Paris).

 

With approximate average mileages of only 25,000 miles for the first two years  and 30,000 for the next four years of their lives, even by 1960, both 70004 and 70014 had total mileages far less than all the other members of the class, excepting the Scottish members of the last batch built in 1954. (RCTS Vol. 1: p83 and p127).

 

The RCTS also state that no Britannia achieved one million miles in B.R. service and it is estimated that these two locomotives may have only done half of the total mileage of 70013 (given as possibly 900,000 miles, as this was one of the Brits allocated to the G.E. section and intensively used right from the beginning of its B.R. career).

 

Later 70004 was one of five Britannias that were allocated to Stockport Edgeley depot (9B) during 1965 and 1966 ( the others being 70015, 70021, 70026 and 70044) and IIRC according to a couple of drivers, 70004 was the best of the lot. 

 

Both 70044 and 70026 were withdrawn from Stockport shed, (44 - 10/66, 26 - 01/67) , with 70004, 70015 and 70021 all transferring to Carlisle Kingmoor (12A) in the summer of 1967.  All three went into store for a couple of months upon arrival at Carlisle and all three were withdrawn on the 30th December, when Kingmoor was closed to steam.

 

So, there it is, 70004* hardly used and in near perfect condition - and kept quite clean by Stockport's lads during the World Cup year of 1966.  What a waste!

 

It is also unfortunate that my Avatar photo is taken on 70024 'Vulcan' at Speke Junction, rather than 70004 at Edgeley, but the sun was never shining when I climbed in its cab!

 

Great Memories,

John.

 

*following the Darlington shopping and repair to a minor collision, out-shopped February 1965; RCTS p128 as Eddie has already pointed out.

 

 

[Dava]

70004: what a waste that it was scrapped. By contrast, 70000 was knackered and really was not a good candidate for preservation as its subsequent career has demonstrated. 70013 has done well by comparison.

 

Dava

[Marshall5]

70004: what a waste that it was scrapped. By contrast, 70000 was knackered and really was not a good candidate for preservation as its subsequent career has demonstrated. 70013 has done well by comparison.

 

Dava

Very true but it must be remembered that, when Scholes drew up the list of locos to be 'officially' preserved, they were never expected to run again.  That is why so many were the first member of the class irrespective of condition.  It was only, much later, that 70013 was substituted as the class member for the National Collection due to its being in much better condition. After languishing for some time in one of the London area sheds (can't remember which one) 70000 was sold and taken initially, if I remember correctly, to the SVR where quite a lot of work was done to it before it could run again. As you say Britannia does seem to have had more that its fair share of problems.  It would, however, be most interesting to know why 70013 was chosen for that final shopping at Crewe rather than 70004.

Ray.

Ray.

[bike2steam]

I saw 70013  a few times after her final shopping at Crewe, each time passing on Crewe to Carlisle express fitted freights, twice while I was visiting Dallam, twice while visiting Springs Branch sheds. After reading Johns 'potted history' it's a shame 70004 wasn't saved, as that was the one I saw more often than any other of the class, at  Willesden, Bescot, Aston, Crewe South, Edgeley, etc etc.

Edited October 7, 2017 by bike2steam

[The Border Reiver]

70004 was sheded at Carlisle Canal for a few months in the middle of 1963. Here is a shot of it being repaired in Canal shed. Its condition is far from its immaculate Golden Arrow days.

 

[Leander]

  It would, however, be most interesting to know why 70013 was chosen for that final shopping at Crewe rather than 70004.

Ray.

Ray.

Probably based on its condition and mileage since its last shopping. Locos were put forward by their respective sheds for shopping. In the sixties many went to the works for overhaul but went for scrap instead, especially if a lot of work was required. Overhaul budgets for steam were being drastically cut. However Crewe Works overhauled a good many Brits in the mid 1960s. 70013 just happened to be the last one.

 

On the subject of 70000, it never had a good reputation when on the LMR. However it wasn't the first to be withdrawn. That accolade went to 70007. I saw it on an up freight at Farington Curve Junction on an up partly fitted freight wreathed in steam and having a real struggle with job shortly before it was taken out of service.

[bike2steam]

Just gone thro' the RCTS book on the standard pacifics, in it is a pic of 70004 at Darlington in 1965 just prior to shopping( the last for that place), with front end damage. Although it doesn't say, it could be there was enough damage ( such as to the frames ??) to preclude it's selection for any preservation.

Also the book mentions that 70013 became the preferred loco for the NRM as 70000 was severely damaged by vandals while in store at Preston Park, so the decision was taken to sell her off, was transferred to Redhill shed where she was shown to prospective buyers, and the eventual transfer to the SVR - such is life. 

Edited October 7, 2017 by bike2steam

[TravisM]

Just gone thro' the RCTS book on the standard pacifics, in it is a pic of 70004 at Darlington in 1965 just prior to shopping( the last for that place), with front end damage. Although it doesn't say, it could be there was enough damage ( such as to the frames ??) to preclude it's selection for any preservation.

Also the book mentions that 70013 became the preferred loco for the NRM as 70000 was severely damaged by vandals while in store at Preston Park, so the decision was taken to sell her off, was transferred to Redhill shed where she was shown to prospective buyers, and the eventual transfer to the SVR - such is life. 

 

I seem to remember reading that 70000 was originally put on the scrap tender list after it was pulled from the preservation selection and was successfully bid on by Drapers of Hull but the group that was based at the Severn Valley Railway managed to either buy it direct from BR or cut a deal with Drapers. Also they had to raise the money very quickly or it would have been sent to Drapers and eventual scrap.

 

I'm not sure there's any truth in the story, but as you know what urban myths are like.

 

Julian Sprott

Edited October 7, 2017 by jools1959

[LMS2968]

Just gone thro' the RCTS book on the standard pacifics, in it is a pic of 70004 at Darlington in 1965 just prior to shopping( the last for that place), with front end damage. Although it doesn't say, it could be there was enough damage ( such as to the frames ??) to preclude it's selection for any preservation.

Also the book mentions that 70013 became the preferred loco for the NRM as 70000 was severely damaged by vandals while in store at Preston Park, so the decision was taken to sell her off, was transferred to Redhill shed where she was shown to prospective buyers, and the eventual transfer to the SVR - such is life.

I remember 70000 at the SVR and it too had front end collision damage, including the frames. This was sufficient that the RH (I think it was) buffer was packed out from the buffer beam to bring the buffer faces back into line.

[The Johnster]

Very true but it must be remembered that, when Scholes drew up the list of locos to be 'officially' preserved, they were never expected to run again.  That is why so many were the first member of the class irrespective of condition.  It was only, much later, that 70013 was substituted as the class member for the National Collection due to its being in much better condition. After languishing for some time in one of the London area sheds (can't remember which one) 70000 was sold and taken initially, if I remember correctly, to the SVR where quite a lot of work was done to it before it could run again. As you say Britannia does seem to have had more that its fair share of problems.  It would, however, be most interesting to know why 70013 was chosen for that final shopping at Crewe rather than 70004.

Ray.

Ray.

 

 

Many of the National Collection locos were stored at Stratford for a while; that institution had so many buildings scattered about the place that I would not dare to hazard a comment as to which actual shed they were in.

 

Sholes' list was based on the idea of retaining examples of locos that represented significant developments in steam design as well as any of particular note such as 'Mallard', the concept being very much of a resource for the academic study of them by engineers rather than preservation as we understand it; certainly the idea of locos in working order was not on the table in any form!

 

I very much doubt if 'Oliver Cromwell' was in any way 'chosen' to be the last outshopped loco, and this was simply a matter of it being next in turn just before the decision or cut off date for any more was reached.  Many preserved locos, especially those chosen because of their particular identities rather than condition, were terrible bags of nails barely capable of any continued service when BR withdrew them and caused major headaches for decades to come to their new owners, Flying Scotsman being the classic example of this, and 70013 was certainly a much better deal than 70000 in 1968!

Edited October 7, 2017 by The Johnster

[Rugd1022]

Emerged from Crewe Works on 2nd February 1967, after major overhaul. 

 

(Information from "Oliver Cromwell and B.R. Standard Pacific Locomotives" by Robert Adamson, a Famous British Locomotives paperback by Friends of the NRM, 2007, ISBN 0-9546685-7-X)

 

There's a photo of it leaving the works that day in an old ASLEF booklet I've got somewhere, standing close by is an old hand fitter almost in tears.