DCC Concepts Zen Decoder with Stay Alive.

[GForce2010]

Has anybody got any experience of the DCC Concepts Zen decoders with the slimline stay alive? Their website has examples of the Super Stay Alive but not much is mentioned about the slimline one that comes with the decoders.

 

Just wondering how well the standard stay alive's work and if they were worth it.

 

Thanks

[Gordon A]

I have fitted one to my Judith Edge Ruston 48DS.

 

I  am quiet happy that it does what it says on the tin so to speak. The loco runs noticeable smoother.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/55545-ruston-48ds-4mm/page-2

Post 50 shows the installation.

 

Gordon A

[McRuss]

Hello Could anyone tell me the dimensions of the slimline Stay alive. DCC Concepts show the dimensions of the decoder but not of the Stay Alive.

 

Thanks

 

Markus

[JSModels]

Hello Could anyone tell me the dimensions of the slimline Stay alive. DCC Concepts show the dimensions of the decoder but not of the Stay Alive.

 

Thanks

 

Markus

Markus,

 

I've just purchased one of these today from Digitrains at the Pontefract show; since no-one else has answered, here you go:

 

Length = approx. 22mm (the wires come out of one end, so which direction they run to will determine the exact space required) Width = 10.0mm, thickness/height 5.6mm.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Jonathan

[Longhaireddavid]

Has anybody got any experience of the DCC Concepts Zen decoders with the slimline stay alive? Their website has examples of the Super Stay Alive but not much is mentioned about the slimline one that comes with the decoders.

 

Just wondering how well the standard stay alive's work and if they were worth it.

 

Thanks

 

What are you putting it into? I had two of these and put them into the new Grafar Ivatt and 4F (coreless motors) and had to change them for Zimo as the Zen didn't like the BEMF situation with these motors. Turning off the BEMF didn't help.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Longhaireddavid

[Ravenser]

On ‎27‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 19:54, Longhaireddavid said:

 

What are you putting it into? I had two of these and put them into the new Grafar Ivatt and 4F (coreless motors) and had to change them for Zimo as the Zen didn't like the BEMF situation with these motors. Turning off the BEMF didn't help.

 

I've bought several of these Zen decoders but am now struggling with them 

 

One - Zen mini -went into a Bachmann 08 (hard wired)  This now displays a strange behaviour, pulsing/ticking at moderate speed steps (rather like the jolting of a decoder being read, though more pronounced) , and requires at least step 13 (of 28) to run properly . It's liable to stall horribly over a slip unless wound up to Step 20. This is not a killer with a low geared 08 - but a subsequent check on DC on a rolling road showed a dramatic deterioration in performance from before the decoder went in. Instead of stall speed being at 20% on the Gaugemaster, it now locks into pulse mode below about 40%. PWM has been pushed up to 40 , which gave a modest improvement , and the pickups have been thoroughly cleaned . The circuit board has been removed to provide space for the decoder, so much of the suppression gubbins has been removed

 

I've tried a Zen nano direct in a Bachmann 4MT 2-6-0. The same phenomenon has manifested itself , with the same dramatic deterioration in performance. Below about 50% just the jolting - on a mechanism that will run very slowly indeed down to 20% with a blanking plate in. No adjustment of decoder or removal of suppression components this time. I pulled it out in disgust, stuck in a Gaugemaster Opti mini which was significantly better though exhibited similar jolting below about 30% . Then the Opti - which is too big to fit inside the body - touched a wheel and blew....

 

I have not seen this behaviour before with other decoders, and having rashly bought 4 Zen decoders before starting to install now feel I've thrown away a lot of money on kit that seems to deliver very unsatisfactory performance

 

Comments welcome - is there something I'm missing about programming the Zen decoders which resolves this??

 

It hasn't been a good evening...

Edited February 7, 2019 by Ravenser

[Art Dent]

Hi Ravenser,

 

I have a couple of DCC Zen decoders fitted and haven't experienced any of the 'problems' that you describe.  One is a Zen Nano ZN8D and the other a Zen 218.

 

However, I tend to favour the Lenz Silver, ESU LokSound or Zimo decoders when I want a 'quality' decoder.

 

I can't figure from your post if you are talking about just one decoder being swapped between locos or two different decoders that demonstrate the same 'problems'.

 

If it is just one decoder - I'd suspect that.  If it is two different decoders, I'd have a look at both their installations and the DCC Command Station that you are using.

 

Regarding the installation/s - have you removed all of the chokes (inductors) and capacitors?  For DCC operation neither anti-surge chokes nor suppression capacitors are required.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Art

[Ravenser]

7 minutes ago, Art Dent said:

Hi Ravenser,

 

I have a couple of DCC Zen decoders fitted and haven't experienced any of the 'problems' that you describe.  One is a Zen Nano ZN8D and the other a Zen 218.

 

However, I tend to favour the Lenz Silver, ESU LokSound or Zimo decoders when I want a 'quality' decoder.

 

I can't figure from your post if you are talking about just one decoder being swapped between locos or two different decoders that demonstrate the same 'problems'.

 

If it is just one decoder - I'd suspect that.  If it is two different decoders, I'd have a look at both their installations and the DCC Command Station that you are using.

 

Regarding the installation/s - have you removed all of the chokes (inductors) and capacitors?  For DCC operation neither anti-surge chokes nor suppression capacitors are required.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Art

 

We are talking about 3 separate decoders

 

2 Zen Mini - since they plug into the harness , I made the obvious test and removed one Mini and plugged in the other to check if I had a bad decoder. It made no difference whatsoever

 

This is the installation in the 08 . I removed the suppression circuiot board

[Art Dent]

Ahh .. OK.

 

Not sure I can shed any light as to what is going on as both locos with the Zen ZN8D and the Zen 218 are working fine.

 

Perhaps other forum members might be able to help *shrugs*

 

Do you have space for Lenz Silver Mini or TCS M1 (both of which I have) and are small.

 

Art

[Ravenser]

6 hours ago, Art Dent said:

Ahh .. OK.

 

Not sure I can shed any light as to what is going on as both locos with the Zen ZN8D and the Zen 218 are working fine.

 

Perhaps other forum members might be able to help *shrugs*

 

Do you have space for Lenz Silver Mini or TCS M1 (both of which I have) and are small.

 

Art

 

My earlier posting was a bit truncated so fuller details 

 

The 08 is a very early batch Bachmann model. These had pickups wiping the tops of the wheels , which were generally found to turn into dirt traps and Bachmann revised the pickup design on later releases. The model has a flywheel. It has been boxed unused since soon after purchase (the price tag says £39.50 and that was RRP). It was carefully oiled in all motion joints and gears/bearings then given an extended run on DC on a rolling road in both directions

 

The model isn't DCC ready. To fit a decoder in, I removed the circuit board carrying suppression components in the nose. A Zen harness was hard-wired in with the decoder removed - as noted the decoder plugs into the harness.

 

On first fitting, with the body removed, all I got , even at speed steps 28/128 , was a repeated motor twitch. I tried my second Zmini - the "performance" was exactly the same. No stay-alive is fitted

 

I then did  three things - 1. rechecked the soldered connections. I found a suspect dry joint and remade it. 2. Removed the keeper plate, dropped out the wheelsets and cleaned the pickup strips , which were caked with black gunk - a known problem with this pickup arrangement 3. reassembled, put on the track and set "PWM" to a value of 40. (I use an NCE Power Cab, and "PWM" is one of the programming steps in the Motor Control section of the standard programming menu. As the DCC Concepts documentation is sparse I'm not sure what CV this is or its more formal name/purpose - BEMF??). Default value here is 0 - it seems to take values up to 255. Acceleration was reduced from 12 to 3 and Deceleration from 12 to 2

 

Control had now improved - after a little prodding the loco ran freely at high speed steps, back and forth. On plain track it was controllable down to step13/28, but when run over a slip it stalled and would only twitch when given more power , until pushed right up to 28. Set at step 20/28 it would run happily across the slip.

 

It still seemed to be vulnerable to slipping into "twitch and stick" at gaps , dirty track or for no clear reason. Back on the rolling road , DC performance had deteriorated sharply, as noted above

 

A further attempt today raised PWM to 150 and reduced Acceleration to 2 and Deceleration to 1 [It's a low-geared gronk. It's not capable of running that fast]. It will now run smoothly down to low values - step 3/28, or 6/128. But it still has a tendency to throw a fit of the vapours and "stick/twitch" 

 

I strongly suspect the pickup design may have something to do with this. But the performance of the 4MT , using a ZN8D Nano direct , is showing the same alarming signs - and the pickup design is not in question there. It will run, but not at low settings . No suppression components have been removed, and no programming attempted yet. I've had the decoder in both ways round with no apparent difference - there are no markings on the socket or the decoder to help work out which way round it goes , and nothing in the documentation. This loco was also thoroughly oiled and given a good long run on DC on the rolling road before fitting a decoder

 

Since I can't get  the 4MTs  body back on with the ZN8D Nano Direct in place I intend to strip out the socket and hard wire in place a TCS Z2 (makes an M1 look huge), which I have in stock but was hoping to reserve for something else. But I'll make some programming experiments first.

 

I'll leave the Zmini in place in the 08 as the loco is now reasonably controllable and is so "essential" to the layout it's spent nearly two decades in a box

 

 

Edited February 7, 2019 by Ravenser

[BWsTrains]

On 02/01/2018 at 07:41, GForce2010 said:

Has anybody got any experience of the DCC Concepts Zen decoders with the slimline stay alive? Their website has examples of the Super Stay Alive but not much is mentioned about the slimline one that comes with the decoders.

 

Just wondering how well the standard stay alive's work and if they were worth it.

 

Thanks

I have several of the Zen Nano deployed, both direct and harness and all have worked very well with a diverse range of modern locos by Hornby and Bachmann. The little Stay alive has very modest storage capacity, where I've needed more than dirt protection (eg across insulfrogs) I've replaced the SA with an own built one of 4400uF and suitable control circuitry, The DCC Concepts web help guide shows how to.

 

One DCC Concepts SA (with its own on board control circuitry) is not much smaller than a single electrolytic Cap (2200uF) - a bit flatter that's all. As noted elsewhere avoid Super Capacitors unless you're prepared to buy high current rated types.

 

Colin

[BWsTrains]

28 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

My earlier posting was a bit truncated so fuller details 

 

As the DCC Concepts documentation is sparse I'm not sure what CV this is or its more formal name/purpose - BEMF??). Default value here is 0 - it seems to take values up to 255. ...

 

 

Go to their website, there is very comprehensive documentation and support and an excellent UK helpline these days. There's only so much you can fit in a Chip pack after all (no jokes please, too obvious)

 

 

 

 

[Ravenser]

16 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

. But the performance of the 4MT , using a ZN8D Nano direct , is showing the same alarming signs - and the pickup design is not in question there. It will run, but not at low settings . No suppression components have been removed, and no programming attempted yet. I've had the decoder in both ways round with no apparent difference - there are no markings on the socket or the decoder to help work out which way round it goes , and nothing in the documentation. This loco was also thoroughly oiled and given a good long run on DC on the rolling road before fitting a decoder

 

Since I can't get  the 4MTs  body back on with the ZN8D Nano Direct in place I intend to strip out the socket and hard wire in place a TCS Z2 (makes an M1 look huge), which I have in stock but was hoping to reserve for something else. But I'll make some programming experiments first.

 

 

 

 

 

I cut out the socket and circuit board. The 4 wires were wired to the correct wires of the TCS Z2 decoder. Placed on the track the PowerCab buzzed and showed 2.4 amp draw, indicating a short. I'm getting a resistance reading of about 60 ohm? across the motor terminals 

 

I've given up and abandoned the 4MT as a non-runner. Pity - it originally seemed to run well on DC

[RFS]

I had a problem with one of my 4MT Standard moguls in that it was giving a persistent short.  I concluded that it was the DCC socket causing the problem, so I removed it and hard-wired the Zimo MX600 decoder. Not only does the loco run perfectly now, but with the socket and a lot of the harness wiring removed. getting the body back on was a doddle. 

Edited February 8, 2019 by RFS

[Ravenser]

7 hours ago, RFS said:

I had a problem with one of my 4MT Standard moguls in that it was giving a persistent short.  I concluded that it was the DCC socket causing the problem, so I removed it and hard-wired the Zimo MX600 decoder. Not only does the loco run perfectly now, but with the socket and a lot of the harness wiring removed. getting the body back on was a doddle. 

 

I tried to go this route as a next step, but failed.  Having chopped out the socket, I hard-wired in a tiny TCS Z2 . Placed on the track, the PowerCab ammeter showed 2.4A and I pulled it off in alarm

 

I still can't see how I get a short with just 4 wires left, the correct wires connected and every joint covered in heat shrink. Very disheartening

[Guest]

I bought 7 of there decoders...big mistake and have replaced them all since,nothing but trouble,poor running in general,was fitted to various models from old lima to new Bachmann,Hornby and Dapol.

Also i avoid Lenz like the plague too , too complicated setting the cv's compared to other makes.

[RFS]

29 minutes ago, matto3868 said:

Also i avoid Lenz like the plague too , too complicated setting the cv's compared to other makes.

 

Really? Lenz decoders have a range of CVs that's no different than anyone else's. In fact most of my locos fitted with Lenz decoders run just fine with mostly default CV values.  I only trim CVs 5 and 6 on all of them. 

[Guest]

Not the ones i have /had lenz silver /gold , CV50 is a night mare ,the booklet thats comes with the chips and there website is ok for rocket scientists.

I know im not alone on this , plenty been written on the web about how complicated they are ,hence i dont use them anymore , i used to use them in N gauge , Silver and gold 6 pin , since gone to 00 and tried fitting them to Bachmann 1fs and 08's ran like absolute dogs ,appalling so tried some gaugemaster 6 pin and run like a dream.

But each to there own. Glad you can get on with them but i just couldnt. DCC concepts as the original post was about , lovely packaging , shame about the product.