Kirby Coupling modification problem

[sn]

I'm having another go at the Kirby type modification of Bachman couplings i.e with the staple wire superglued onto the coupling hook.

 

The main problem I'm having is that any superglue I use takes ages to set (and I'm using high quality high cost ones!) and so the whole process of attaching the staples has become a bit of a nightmare.

 

Has anyone any suggestions/observations from their own experiences in this?

 

Len

[Dunsignalling]

Superglue generally "grabs" in one to fifteen seconds, depending on grade; the thinner it is, the faster, as a rule. Also, if you keep your superglue refrigerated, the grab time increases substantially until it reaches room temperature.

 

However, they all take at least an hour to reach full strength, longer in cold conditions; so don't expect things to stay stuck if you start using them straight away.

 

John

Edited June 19, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[smokebox]

You can get superglue accelerator which makes it set in seconds on difficult materials. I haven't tried it on couplings though. It's used a lot by double glazing installers to bond upvc.

[philsandy]

I have found using Loctite superglue it does take longer to set because you are bonding metal to metal, so there is no absorbency.

Once I have made the joint I very carefully use the edge of a piece of paper kitchen towel/toilet tissue and just touch any excess glue to soak it up. This speeds up the setting time, and it is usually good after a minute.

[michaelp]

I tried using 'Grip' super glue with an activator and some of the staples still came loose, gave up in the end and went for 3mm Sprat and Winkle couplings.

[eldavo]

I gave up on blues and now solder the staples to the dropper. Much more resilient.

 

Cheers

Dave

[spikey]

5-minute epoxy?????

[gismorail]

If it's like the Vacuum cleaners its pressure sales and expensive 

 

Hat coat exit ...............................

[RexAshton]

I gave up on blues and now solder the staples to the dropper. Much more resilient.

 

Cheers

Dave

I agree. For metal to metal the best superglue you can buy is a soldering iron - and it doesn't stick your fingers together.

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Len and everyone,

     I've only ever used regular general purpose DIY superglue, my favourite is from Screwfix in little 20g plastic bottles. I've never bothered with any of the thicker gel type ones, I just prefer the thin stuff that flows well, in any case an old used bottle tends to thicken up anyway, if you want it jelly-like? The more you squirt on, the longer it takes to go off, especially if the material isn't absorbant (e.g. metal or plastic). It's best used in a warm environment, and you can speed things up by dabbing the joint with kitchen roll tissue, which will soak up any excess glue. When dry, another technique is to add a second, or even a third layer of superglue, to strengthen the joint, but one squirt is normally sufficient for coupling staples. The reshaped staple needs to be gently crimped around the coupling dropper, before gluing. 

     Soldering is not practical, cos the Bachmann dropper is non-ferrous alloy (non-magnetic), maybe one day someone will try resistance or spot welding?!

     I wouldn't advocate using any epoxy resin, it's nasty stuff and quite messy, and would need a decent size blob to make the joint. Be very careful to avoid touching the resin part before mixing, if it touches your skin it could give you a saw rash, which could take weeks to go away. The hardener probably contains an accelerant and other nasty chemicals. I never use epoxy these days, impact glues are safer for big jobs, superglue is good for plenty of other work.

                              I hope you all enjoy your no-hands shunting by magic.

                                                                                                            Cheers, Brian Kirby.     

(Note to self: I must replace the images on the original RMweb coupling thread, they've all disappeared since Botophucket free hosting went mammary glands up)  

[Mister Rusty]

Brian,

I had nearly 1000 images on another unrelated site.

As the originator, l was able to retrieve them in batches for re-posting, avoiding use of the p'bucket site altogether except for retrieval and at no cost, or hindrance.

So, the fears of them being irretrievably lost are unfounded.

Worked for me, hope it works for you, too.

Pete

 

I am advised that the initial posted image is and will always remain mine (intellectual or artistic rights, or some such). As a consequence, they cannot block my retrieval, but once they have manipulated it in any way, then they have rights over its use and abilities to charge for their manipulation.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Sun Street

[eldavo]

 

     Soldering is not practical, cos the Bachmann dropper is non-ferrous alloy (non-magnetic), maybe one day someone will try resistance or spot welding?!

    

 

Not quite correct Brian, the Bachmann hooks take solder just fine. Give em a rub with a scratchy brush or Emery paper before bending the staple around, then a dab of flux and Bobs your uncle.

 

Cheers

Dave

[Brian Kirby]

Not quite correct Brian, the Bachmann hooks take solder just fine. Give em a rub with a scratchy brush or Emery paper before bending the staple around, then a dab of flux and Bobs your uncle.

 

Cheers

Dave

Sounds great, but are you sure the solder fuses to the Bachmann alloy hooks, maybe it just forms a tight ring of solder around it? Soldering steel staples to steel hooks, is straightforward with acid flux, but with steel hooks there's always the danger of them becoming magnetized, and being attracted to the other hook. Whatever happens, if it works, that's perfect, i'll give it a bash myself.    BK

[Dagworth]

 

     Soldering is not practical, cos the Bachmann dropper is non-ferrous alloy (non-magnetic),

Brass is a non-ferrous alloy... so is nickel-silver.... Both solder very easily

 

Andi

[Brian Kirby]

Brass is a non-ferrous alloy... so is nickel-silver.... Both solder very easily

 

Andi

There's only one slight problem with that, the Bachmann hooks don't appear to be brass. I've always assumed they were an aluminium alloy, that would probably make them easier to stamp out in production, without the black paint they are shiny silver in appearance. Any metallurgists in the house?   BK

[neilkirby]

 I have recently had a go at some of these for a test, and have slipped offcut pieces of wire insulation over the dropper, then slid one leg of the staple under it before applying the glue, seems to work for now, but only time will tell longer term.

 

Neil

Edited February 9, 2018 by neilkirby

[Mister Rusty]

I have been using Neil Kirby's system for a while now, with no issues on our Buchshee layout.

The layout was built to use Kadees to enable remote shutting, and the magnets are still in the layout. I use these for uncoupling my stock, with no extra magnets needed, nor any moved.

This is achieved by taking the hook off one end of chosen stock and arranging stock so that there is a hook-to-loop consist at the chosen break points. It works for me as a reasonable cost compromise between Kadees and standard, with the benefit of no hand-of-god moments. Just stop over the Kadee magnet appropriately.

I have not found any metal hook that will not solder when cleaned bright. Mind, I use a 1964 Weller soldering gun that takes no prisoners for the work.

Also, it has the benefit of minimal mods from standard, if stock is put up for sale. Many systems that are around so devalue stock put up for sale.

[sn]

Does anyone use the Kirby system modified so that each wagon has one end with no hook? I ask because this seems to be far more reliable for me in tests . The potential prob of course is that running at speed over less than perfect track might lead to unrequited uncoupling?Isthis the case? I ask because at present I onl6 have a small shunting layout wher this would not occur

 

I have some magnets under ‘sets’ and this seems to cause a problem around how far the staple can fall due to reduced height between ground and staple.

 

I look forward to your replies

 

Cheers

 

Len

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... Any metallurgists in the house?  

 I didn't remotely give a thought to what alloy it was made from: wipe with a file, solder on staple using rosin cored electrical solder, job done. Been doing this since you first proposed this splendid idea on RM web, and still grateful.

 

 

Does anyone use the Kirby system modified so that each wagon has one end with no hook? I ask because this seems to be far more reliable for me in tests . The potential prob of course is that running at speed over less than perfect track might lead to unrequired uncoupling?

 

...I have some magnets under ‘sets’ and this seems to cause a problem around how far the staple can fall due to reduced height between ground and staple...

 

 Actually it is slow running where an undesired uncouple most readily happens in my experience, if there is less than smooth running or a bump in the track causing couplings to close up. Fix these problems, no ramdom uncouples.

 

If the setts protrude above rail top that's your real problem. Personally I would fix that rather than going to single hooks. (You might be able to work around it by altering the angle of the staple, if the magnetic field strength is great enough to still attract the staple. But better to bring down the height of the setts.)

[ejstubbs]

Brass is a non-ferrous alloy... so is nickel-silver.... Both solder very easily

 

Copper is a non-ferrous element (and a component of brass, of course) and solders just fine.  To put it bluntly, and with a reckless disregard for proper English: non-ferrosity does not imply unsolderability.

 

 I didn't remotely give a thought to what alloy it was made from: wipe with a file, solder on staple using rosin cored electrical solder, job done.

 

Aluminium and Al alloys are difficult to solder, primarily because of the oxide layer that forms on the surface.  This prevents the solder from 'wetting' the substrate and forming the intermetallic bond between the solder and the substrate.  It's that bond which makes a solder joint different to a glued joint: the molten solder (usually the tin component*) effectively dissolves into the substrate metal to form the metallurgical basis for the joint.  Your "wipe with a file" may very well be precisely what makes the process work for you, by removing the oxide layer in the region of the joint.

 

Another way to solder aluminium is to use a very aggressive flux which attacks the oxide layer.  With this technique it's necessary to clean the joint thoroughly afterwards, to void the risk of any residual flux continuing to attack the substrate.

 

Solders specifically intended for soldering aluminium are also available, usually zinc-based.  I think these are intended to form a better intermetallic bond with the aluminium than tin does, although for our purposes the bond formed by tin-based solder is probably adequate.  (I suspect that you'd still need to deal with the oxide layer in some way when using zinc-based solder, though.)

 

* When soldering copper, this means that you get a microscopic zone within the joint which consists of a copper-tin alloy - on other words, bronze!

[ejstubbs]

I have found using Loctite superglue it does take longer to set because you are bonding metal to metal, so there is no absorbency.

Once I have made the joint I very carefully use the edge of a piece of paper kitchen towel/toilet tissue and just touch any excess glue to soak it up. This speeds up the setting time, and it is usually good after a minute.

 

It'll be the removal of the excess glue that helps.  Cyanoacrylate polymerises rapidly in the presence of water (specifically, hydroxide ions) and since there is almost always water vapour present in the air, it quickly forms a 'skin' which can slow down polymerisation of the glue deeper within the joint.  Hence also why applying multiple, thin layers can result in a better joint.

 

Two properties of cyanoacrylate are relevant when using it to glue staples to coupling droppers: it bonds weakly to smooth surfaces, and has a low shear strength.  That's probably why it is (IME) pretty easy to remove a superglued staple from a coupling dropper, although for uncoupling purposes the bond only needs to be strong enough to 'tip' the coupling hook so massive strength isn't really a requirement for the application.  (Wikipedia says that cyanoacrylate forms an adhesive filler when combined with sodium bicarbonate aka baking soda.  That suggests that dusting a judicious amount of bicarb into the joint area before applying the cyano might actually produce a stronger joint.  Assuming that were needed...)

[RedgateModels]

Does anyone use the Kirby system modified so that each wagon has one end with no hook? I ask because this seems to be far more reliable for me in tests . The potential prob of course is that running at speed over less than perfect track might lead to unrequited uncoupling?Isthis the case? I ask because at present I onl6 have a small shunting layout wher this would not occur

 

I have some magnets under ‘sets’ and this seems to cause a problem around how far the staple can fall due to reduced height between ground and staple.

 

I look forward to your replies

 

Cheers

 

Len

 

On Summat Colliery all the wagons that are not "permanently" coupled with 3 links have full "Kirby" couplings with hooks etc. The shunter locos too have a full Kirby at the business end and a dummy 3 link at the other for appearance sake. The visiting locos on the other hand just have the Bachmann loops without hooks both ends. This stops them getting hooked up in the fiddle yard and means it is easy to include a guest loco to the roster, just remove the hook and ready to go.

 

I get the very occasional unintended uncoupling but normally laugh it off at shows and blame the poor shunter for not doing his job properly LOL

[Stubby47]

Does anyone use the Kirby system modified so that each wagon has one end with no hook? I ask because this seems to be far more reliable for me in tests . The potential prob of course is that running at speed over less than perfect track might lead to unrequited uncoupling?Isthis the case? I ask because at present I onl6 have a small shunting layout wher this would not occur

 

I have some magnets under ‘sets’ and this seems to cause a problem around how far the staple can fall due to reduced height between ground and staple.

 

I look forward to your replies

 

Cheers

 

Len

 

I've only ever used single ended wagons (hooks at one end) and have moved on from permanent magnets to electro ones (Dinghams). 

 

The wagons use a mix of staples and iron wire (idea copied from Muz) and stuck on with cheap impact adhesive. (Glue both pieces, leave for 5 minutes, press together, leave for 2 hours).

 

Stu

[Il Grifone]

I would clamp the staple firmly to the dropper with pliers first and then solder (preferably) or glue it in place. A sound mechanical fixing is the first step to a good joint.

 

(Just an idea - I don't use tension locks - Every time I try them, they tangle up and remind me why I stopped using them in the first place.

[neilkirby]

I have some magnets under ‘sets’ and this seems to cause a problem around how far the staple can fall due to reduced height between ground and staple.

 

I look forward to your replies

 

Cheers

 

Len

 I happened across the same issue when trying some Wills granite setts between the tracks. I seemed to have solved it by fitting some small magnets to the end of the dropper after bending the bottom 2mm of it 90° these work by opposing the magnet under the sett, thereby lifting the dropper without anything dropping below track level. I have only tried this quickly this morning between dropping the poor wife off for a 12 hour Christmas shift and my daughters getting up. I will test more during the holiday.

 

EDIT

This proved not to work as well as I had hoped, with the presence of the magnet making the droppers magnetic enough so stick to the dropper on the next wagon. I might try going back to staples, but with the ends bent up towards the back with the magnet on the end, maybe this will have enough attraction to the under sett magnet, but remain clear of grounding.

 

Neil,

 

PS I see above in the thread that someone referred to this as my system. So just to make it clear it is Brian Kirby's, not mine we both just happen to share the same surname.

 

Neil

Edited January 8, 2019 by neilkirby