Freelance tender engine for the Hornby 0-4-0 Holden chassis

[TangoOscarMike]

 Dear All

 

Here is a prototype of my freelance tender engine design for the Hornby 0-4-0 Holden chassis. I would be very grateful for any comments you can offer, since I would like to make some improvements before I declare it finished and offer it for sale in my Shapeways shop ( https://www.shapeways.com/shops/toys-or-models ).

 

 

 

The attached pictures speak for themselves, but please bear in mind that I was very excited when I received the print (and it is only a prototype), so the paint job is a little slapdash. Please don't judge it by the wavy lining on the tender! On the whole I'm very happy with it - I was afraid that it would look silly next to a model of a real locomotive, but in fact I'm perfectly happy with how it looks next to my County class.

 

I am interested in any and all feedback, but I have a few remarks of my own, some of which are questions and some of which are responses to questions that I anticipate:

 

1) I'm going to add a whistle on the firebox or the front of the cab.

 

2) I've already re-worked part of the tender frame, to make it match the engine's running plate a little better.

 

3) The boxes on the side are to conceal the motor mount (especially the loop at the end of the motor retension spring). I sized these boxes quite generously, and in the next version I will make them a little smaller. I'm considering replacing them with an elongated splasher, but I'm not sure how this will work out.

 

4) I'm not sure about the proportions of the dome and safety valve. Perhaps the safety valve should be bigger?

 

5) Looking at the side view, I think it would be better if I added a pair of wheels to make it an 0-4-2. Unfortunately, I can't see a way of doing this without breaking my golden rule - no modifications to the chassis. Perhaps in the future I can make two versions: an 0-4-2 with chassis alterations, and an 0-4-0 without.

 

6) I have deliberatly not included handrails on this (or my other two models). I think that (without moving to more expensive plastic) they would simply be too chunky and ugly. It's better for people to add them themselves, if they want.

 

7) Boiler bands. Do you think it would be a good idea to have raised boiler bands included in the 3D print? It would probably make it easier to paint them.

 

Right, that's more than enough words from me. Please let me know what you think.

 

 

Thanks

Tom

 

[PaulRhB]

I like the idea and style . A slightly skinnier boiler might help but I expect that the mechanism dictates that

So as is I'd suggest a slightly larger diameter for the chimney as it's too skinny to my eyes, make the dome a bit wider and taller and move the safety valve back so it's just in front of the cab.

[Corbs]

I agree with those points, is there any way of making the smokebox saddle wrap over the cylinders, as on the Stirling single?

 

 

as pictured with thicker chimley and doome, and safely valves embiggened and moved.

Edited June 27, 2018 by Corbs

[TangoOscarMike]

Thank you both very much, that is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping for.

 

The mechanism does indeed dictate the boiler/firebox dimensions (and the height of the centre-line), but I may have been over-cautious. I might be able to shave off a millimetre, which could make a big difference visually.

 

I can see from the doctored picture (thank you!) that you're both right about the items on top of the boiler. I shall make these changes forthwith.

 

As for the smokebox saddle: I was certainly trying to achieve an appearance reminiscent of the Stirling Single (and many other Victorian locomotives). Since the cylinders are part of the chassis it wasn't too hard to do what I've done (valve chests incorporated into the smokebox saddle, cylinders left alone). I've just had a quick look on the internet for pictures of real locomotives like this, but so far I've found nothing.

 

It might be a little difficult to incorporate the cylinders into the smokebox saddle because of the precision required. A small gap could be obvious and ugly. Nevertheless, I will attempt it.

 

[Moxy]

I can see from the doctored picture (thank you!) that you're both right about the items on top of the boiler. I shall make these changes forthwith.

 

As for the smokebox saddle: I was certainly trying to achieve an appearance reminiscent of the Stirling Single (and many other Victorian locomotives). Since the cylinders are part of the chassis it wasn't too hard to do what I've done (valve chests incorporated into the smokebox saddle, cylinders left alone). I've just had a quick look on the internet for pictures of real locomotives like this, but so far I've found nothing.

 

It might be a little difficult to incorporate the cylinders into the smokebox saddle because of the precision required. A small gap could be obvious and ugly. Nevertheless, I will attempt it.

 

Hi Tom

 

Stirling locos (outside cylindered ones at least) seem to have the smokebox wing plates 'faired in' to the cylinders, which with the RTR chassis is going to be difficult to achieve.

 

How about these examples as inspiration?  https://ribblesteam.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/the-king-new.jpg

 

http://www.southdevonrailwayassociation.org/Images/John_Brodribb/Bellerophon_lowloader-sml.jpg

 

Not tender locos like yours, both are E Borrows & Son well tanks, but it shows a slightly different treatment of wing plates/footplate/cylinder joint which might work with your design.  Perhaps a separate cylinder cover to go over the Hornby one would work?

 

HTH

 

Moxy

[PaulRhB]

Have you considered closely following the old Hornby O Gauge tinplate tank & tender locos as some more ideas? I've always thought they'd make a good retro set idea

[TangoOscarMike]

Stirling locos (outside cylindered ones at least) seem to have the smokebox wing plates 'faired in' to the cylinders, which with the RTR chassis is going to be difficult to achieve.

 

How about these examples as inspiration?  https://ribblesteam.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/the-king-new.jpg

 

http://www.southdevonrailwayassociation.org/Images/John_Brodribb/Bellerophon_lowloader-sml.jpg

 

Not tender locos like yours, both are E Borrows & Son well tanks, but it shows a slightly different treatment of wing plates/footplate/cylinder joint which might work with your design.  Perhaps a separate cylinder cover to go over the Hornby one would work?

 

What I particularly like about these (especially the King) is the way the smooth curve passes through the running plate.

 

I had considered completely covering the Hornby cylinder, as you suggest, but I rejected the idea as too difficult. Now I'm inspired to try again.

 

Thank you

Tom

[TangoOscarMike]

Have you considered closely following the old Hornby O Gauge tinplate tank & tender locos as some more ideas? I've always thought they'd make a good retro set idea

 

Well to some extent this whole project is a nod towards the Hornby clockwork locomotives. My grandmother had a box of Hornby tinplate trains, and my brother and I would set it all up when we visited at Christmas. I suppose it belonged to someone of my Father's generation, but I don't know for sure.

 

If I recall correctly, the tank engines and the tender engines all shared the same clockwork mechanism and wheel arrangement. And this is exactly what I'm trying to do with the 0-4-0 chassis.

 

In terms of appearance, perhaps the closest modern RTR equivalent is this:

 

 https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/brands/Hornby-railroad/railroad-locomotives/railroad-0-4-0-kelly-son-paper-mill.html

 

Hitherto I'd regarded these engines as rather ugly, but now I'm seeing them in a different light. I hadn't considered actually trying to recreate the aesthetic of the Hornby tinplate trains, but I am now that you've suggested it....

 

I'll add it to the list of ideas!

 

Thanks

Tom

[Gibbo675]

Thank you both very much, that is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping for.

 

The mechanism does indeed dictate the boiler/firebox dimensions (and the height of the centre-line), but I may have been over-cautious. I might be able to shave off a millimetre, which could make a big difference visually.

 

I can see from the doctored picture (thank you!) that you're both right about the items on top of the boiler. I shall make these changes forthwith.

 

As for the smokebox saddle: I was certainly trying to achieve an appearance reminiscent of the Stirling Single (and many other Victorian locomotives). Since the cylinders are part of the chassis it wasn't too hard to do what I've done (valve chests incorporated into the smokebox saddle, cylinders left alone). I've just had a quick look on the internet for pictures of real locomotives like this, but so far I've found nothing.

 

It might be a little difficult to incorporate the cylinders into the smokebox saddle because of the precision required. A small gap could be obvious and ugly. Nevertheless, I will attempt iCo

Hi Tom,

 

I like an enterprising chap,

 

Corbs is right to put the safety valves over the firebox in his rendering, the only other position would be in the top of the dome.

 

The only comments I have are that

 

• The dome is too far forward, they are always fitted to either the highest point of the boiler on taper boilers or as with your parallel boiler they should be at the midpoint from the front tube plate and the back head, the reason for this is that is protected from surge under braking and water level variance on gradients.
• The front face of the fire box needs to be at least a foot (4mm) behind the rear axle as the fire box will be too shallow, look at a side views of black fives the originals had vertical throat plates and later ones sloping ones and how they look in relation to the driving axle. Granted the rear end of the firebox is above the rear axle but the front end is about level with the underside of the axle.
• The length of the rear frames under the cab seems a slight long, the two problems would be a seriously rough ride for the crew and fall plate issues on reverse curves.

I know its a made up model but if you take into consideration real life engineering challenges your model will look right and with luck be better for it.

 

If you have any questions on loco design then do ask I'll gladly assist where I can.

 

Gibbo.

[Steamport Southport]

 

In terms of appearance, perhaps the closest modern RTR equivalent is this:

 

 https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/brands/Hornby-railroad/railroad-locomotives/railroad-0-4-0-kelly-son-paper-mill.html

 

 

Funny thing is that's actually based on a real locomotive.

 

Dowlais Locomotive No.76 - Name 'No. 40 King George V'. Queen Mary is similar, but I think had some differences.

 

 

http://www.alangeorge.co.uk/Dowlais_Works_locomotives.htm

 

 

 

 

Jason

[BernardTPM]

Funny thing is that's actually based on a real locomotive.

Yes, that's possibly the strangest thing about it! I have mused that it might be interesting to extend one into an 0-6-2T.

[TangoOscarMike]

Thanks Gibbo

 

The dome is too far forward, they are always fitted to either the highest point of the boiler on taper boilers or as with your parallel boiler they should be at the midpoint from the front tube plate and the back head, the reason for this is that is protected from surge under braking and water level variance on gradients.

I'm glad you've said that, because when I look at Corbs's picture, I want to move the dome back for visual balance. If this is also technically correct, then so much the better.
 

The front face of the fire box needs to be at least a foot (4mm) behind the rear axle as the fire box will be too shallow, look at a side views of black fives the originals had vertical throat plates and later ones sloping ones and how they look in relation to the driving axle. Granted the rear end of the firebox is above the rear axle but the front end is about level with the underside of the axle.

This might be hard to reconcile with the clearance around the motor. But the accumulated feedback is going to result in quite a lot of re-design, so the least I can do is try.
 

The length of the rear frames under the cab seems a slight long, the two problems would be a seriously rough ride for the crew and fall plate issues on reverse curves.

The more I look at it, the more I think I am going to make two versions. An 0-4-0 for people who don't want to alter the chassis, and an 0-4-2 for people who don't like the overhang. Would the additional rear axle alter what you have said above, about the firebox placement?
 

I know its a made up model but if you take into consideration real life engineering challenges your model will look right and with luck be better for it.

Oh, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. For me, technical considerations trump design aesthetics not only because of common sense, but also because things that are designed to function correctly frequently end up looking best.
 

If you have any questions on loco design then do ask I'll gladly assist where I can.

Well, I'd be grateful for your views on boiler bands. Am I right in understanding that they are not (as one might imagine) reinforcement, but rather to hold cladding in place?

I suspect that any raised boiler band would be significantly over-scale. If I choose half a millimetre, that corresponds to a piece of metal an inch and a half thick, whereas in reality they are thin metal straps.

So perhaps the most realistic approach is simply to paint them.


Thanks in advance
Tom

[Tiptonian]

Nice! After Corbs's suggestions, a slight increase in cab height and decrease in funnel height would also help. Be careful with boiler bands; they often turn out too thick. It might be best to let the modeller apply them. As far as the chassis limitations will allow, follow what Gibbo675 says. He has probably forgotten more about locomotives than most of us will ever know!

 

Thought you might like to see this.

 

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-nbr-lner-y10-0-4-0-no1011-tender-steam-locomotive-113243654.html

 

.........but yours is more cute!.

 

Corbs. I hereby award the prize for word of the week to you for the word "embiggend"!

 

Bernard TPM. Have you checked out the link posted by Steamport Southport? There are also 0-6-0T versions of the GKN locos

 

 

Tom, I wish you the very best of luck with an interesting project.

[TangoOscarMike]

Funny thing is that's actually based on a real locomotive.

 

Dowlais Locomotive No.76 - Name 'No. 40 King George V'. Queen Mary is similar, but I think had some differences.

 

 

http://www.alangeorge.co.uk/Dowlais_Works_locomotives.htm

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

Well, in that case, shame on me for thinking it didn't look quite believable. I had thought that the boiler of an 0-4-0 tank engine couldn't possible be that big in real life.

 

And to my eyes it is indeed very reminiscent of the clockwork tinplate tank engines.

 

I'll be getting one of these (and the other one) in due course, when I start to design bodies for the inside-cylinder chassis.

[TangoOscarMike]

Nice! After Corbs's suggestions, a slight increase in cab height and decrease in funnel height would also help. Be careful with boiler bands; they often turn out too thick. It might be best to let the modeller apply them. As far as the chassis limitations will allow, follow what Gibbo675 says. He has probably forgotten more about locomotives than most of us will ever know!

Wilco!

 

Thought you might like to see this.

 

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-nbr-lner-y10-0-4-0-no1011-tender-steam-locomotive-113243654.html

 

.........but yours is more cute!.

Why thank you! I'm a recent convert to the word "cute". I used to think that it was a synonym for "nauseating", but two Italian women I know brought me round by saying that surely I must agree that foals are cute. But they didn't know the word "foal", so they said "horse puppies", and that made me change my mind.

 

Anyway, thank you for the photograph. When I started this project I thought that a little 0-4-0 tender engine was going to be inherently toy-like. But after a while I realised that the Victorians made plenty of small tender engines. And of course, many of the machines the Victorians made survived long into the 20th century.

 

[Gibbo675]

Thanks Gibbo

 

 

I'm glad you've said that, because when I look at Corbs's picture, I want to move the dome back for visual balance. If this is also technically correct, then so much the better.

 

This might be hard to reconcile with the clearance around the motor. But the accumulated feedback is going to result in quite a lot of re-design, so the least I can do is try.

 

The more I look at it, the more I think I am going to make two versions. An 0-4-0 for people who don't want to alter the chassis, and an 0-4-2 for people who don't like the overhang. Would the additional rear axle alter what you have said above, about the firebox placement?

 

Oh, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. For me, technical considerations trump design aesthetics not only because of common sense, but also because things that are designed to function correctly frequently end up looking best.

 

Well, I'd be grateful for your views on boiler bands. Am I right in understanding that they are not (as one might imagine) reinforcement, but rather to hold cladding in place?

 

I suspect that any raised boiler band would be significantly over-scale. If I choose half a millimetre, that corresponds to a piece of metal an inch and a half thick, whereas in reality they are thin metal straps.

 

So perhaps the most realistic approach is simply to paint them.

 

 

Thanks in advance

Tom

Hi Tom,

 

I like the trailing truck idea I can visualise it now that you mention it.

 

Regarding boiler cladding, there are three basic methods of cladding a boiler with steel sheets, in the early days wooden planks were banded onto the boiler to provide insulation, the bands were used like a giant jubilee clip.Soon after the wooden planks covered in 1/16" steel plates, because rain water cools the boiler, again the bands acting as jubilee clips. With the increase in boiler pressure comes an increase in the temperature of the the boiler wood being flammable this wasn't ideal and so to insulation materials such as asbestos matting, rock wool and aluminum matting the steel sheets being supported by a 5/16" steel frame known as a crinoline. The crinoline was bolted to snubs either riveted or welded to the boiler shell and the steel sheets were then screwed with counter sink screws to the crinoline, the boiler bands performing two functions, one to act as a big jubilee clip and the other to cover the joint lines between the cladding sheets on larger boilers. The usual maximum width of a cladding sheet being four foot. The third method as used by the GWR is to use a paste made from asbestos flake and plaster to a set depth over the boiler screwing the cladding sheets to it when dried and then attaching the boiler bands as with the others.

 

That was a lot for you read !

 

Gibbo.

[TangoOscarMike]

Thank you all for the quality and quantity of the feedback! Please keep it coming.

 

It might take me a few weeks (or months!) to implement it all, but I'm sure it'll be worth it.

 

[No Decorum]

Funny thing is that's actually based on a real locomotive.

 

Dowlais Locomotive No.76 - Name 'No. 40 King George V'. Queen Mary is similar, but I think had some differences.

 

 

http://www.alangeorge.co.uk/Dowlais_Works_locomotives.htm

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

What I find extraordinary is that Hornby very carefully reproduced the details of the real locomotive and then, having gone to all that trouble, distorted it badly to fit the standard chassis.

[BernardTPM]

Bernard TPM. Have you checked out the link posted by Steamport Southport? There are also 0-6-0T versions of the GKN locos

Yes, but I was thinking of an 0-6-2T with slightly bigger wheels and a larger rear bunker which alters the proportions somewhat, perhaps moving it closer to Edwardian mainstream 'big boiler' design. Almost worth splashing out on a cheap Hornby body for, perhaps.

[BernardTPM]

Boiler bands are best applied after. In fact waterslide lining, especially the older 'cut from a sheet' type (e.g. SMS) would make crisp, near to scale thickness bands.

Lack of boiler bands would also make it easier to smooth any lines caused by the 3D printing process.

[PaulRhB]

I agree with Bernard, leave off the bands

[LNWR18901910]

What a lovely tender locomotive! Shame I don't see it available on your Shapeways yet. Still, it'd glad to see you venture with different locomotive styles.

Edited July 12, 2018 by LNWR18901910

[CrossEyedMary]

Very much looking forward to seeing how this turns out. Could be an ideal little hand-me-down loco for a light railway.

Assuming your 0-4-0 projects are successful, which I'm sure they will be, will you consider making bodies for other chassis?

Keep up the good work.

[DCB]

The 0-4-0 is a massive beast, bit like the King George V was or the ex GER 0-4-0 tanks which were around 20 tons axle load. I can see a colliery buying one for very sharp curves and steep gradients around 1888.  The model needs hand rails, a bit of lining would sort the boiler bands, and the valve gear is horrible.   I have cut the metal disc out behind the spokes on the Hornby wheels to leave the rim which improves the appearance but I entirely get that for production the 0-4-0 needs to fit a proprietary chassis.   If not I would shorten the back of the chassis and fit a leading wheel. Most 2-4-0s had rigid frames with a bit of sideplay on the leading wheels rather than a pony truck but it could easily pass for an 1860s main line good locos as a 2-4-0.   The scottish liked 0-4-2 goods lender locos so that might be worthy of consideration.

What I find extraordinary is that Hornby very carefully reproduced the details of the real locomotive and then, having gone to all that trouble, distorted it badly to fit the standard chassis.

They seem to have stretched the plastic  0-4-0 chassis so they could use the metal 0-4-0 coupling rods which had the same centres as the 1950 metal 0-6-0 chassis.  Still it allowed them to make a wide range of affordable models which gave many of us a lot of pleasure and had readily available spare parts rather than a massive range of expensive locos which sit in display cabinets and never turn a wheel for which parts are almost unavailable. 

[Neil]

I like the concept but would suggest taking a look at the Furness Railway 0-4-0 tender engine or the North British example for inspiration. Common features are the inside cylinder configuration and smaller overhangs front and rear than the unmodified Holden chassis gives. I have a feeling that the late model Nellie type chassis (found under the SDJR loco) had a can motor of smaller dimensions than the X04 and might be an alternative suitable chassis.