Detailing a Hornby Black 5

[Mucky Duck]

 

I've had a Brassmasters detailing kit for a Hornby Black 5 lying around for a couple of years now so decided it was time to put it to use and to

have another diversion from the layout itself, for a while. The kit is beautifully etched from nickel-silver with many other parts cast in white

metal and lost wax brass. In addition, a Comet etched front bogie and wheels will complete the upgrade.

 

Maybe it's me but good colour shots of Newton Heath locos prior to 1968 seem to be a bit thin on the ground. After researching I found a

suitable prototype, no. 44890 but it meant that I had to 'split' two Hornby models to get the combination of a riveted tender with the prototype

loco's top feed position.

 

I wouldn't describe myself as a rivet counter but I am quite particular about models looking just right and although Hornby's Black 5 captures

the prototype's form very accurately, there are some detail aspects that I feel the need to modify, bearing in mind that my layout will only ever

be photographed, not exhibited – and what terrible secrets a macro lens can reveal!

 

I am not an expert on loco parts. To help, Brassmasters numbered them in the text but strangely, not on the images of the parts. I worked out

most of them straightaway but the array lamp irons of different lengths, the injectors and gravity lubricators took some time despite referring

to images on the website.

 

Apart from Brassmasters own instructions, I referred to MRJ 138 in which Tim Shackleton modified a Hornby Black 5 'on a budget' and the

BRM Right Track 4, Detailing and Improving RTR dvd, where Tony Wright used a Brassmasters kit on the same model. I must admit that it

was the latter that really spurred me into action… there's nothing quite like seeing someone actually do it to help overcome ones own reluctance

to dive in for the very first time.

 

We all want different things from our modelling and I'm sure that some will be wondering why go to all the bother if it's still 00 gauge! I guess

only when I've finished will I know if it was worth it. I hope I don't ramble on too much. If anyone sees any gaffs along the way, please feel free

to put me straight!

 

Tender

After separating tender top from base, I removed the tender platform with a sharp scalpel to enable thinning-out of all visible inner sides. The

bunker had been permanently coaled by its previous owner so I've left it to be 'brimmed' – eventually, after weathering – to hide the incorrect

internal shape.

 

 

The water filler was sliced off from tender platform. I want to model it open and I'm still thinking about a suitable method of modelling this.

 

 

 

With the edges thinned, plasticard 'ledges' fill the gaps as the tender platform is now a loose fit when it is glued back into position.

 

 

 

 

Thinned… and some! Maybe I should have started on the tender frames first until I got the hang of using the router – it took less than a couple

of minutes to 'remove the sizable chunk on the right… B***ER! If anyone has any suggestions of how to to remedy this please let me know.

Moulded lamp irons and tender steps removed and holes drilled for replacements. Another 'slip' marks the back… it takes time to get used to

working under a magnifying glass with a power tool!

 

 

 

Angle iron strip and lifting lugs mostly disguise butchery beneath. Brassmasters front bulkhead overlay had to be trimmed around the

permanent coal and a hole was cut through the Hornby tender bulkhead.

 

 

 

Battle-scarred Hornby frames. They have been thinned and the feeble springs and axle boxes removed with brutal router. Strange, you'd

imagine that the RTR details would always be over-scale rather than under!

 

 

 

Brassmasters' own springs and axle boxes do look better but I have to say that the moulding on Hornby's plastic spring leaves is finer than the

replacement white metal ones. Home-made fire iron tunnel entrance just about visible.

 

 

 

Large pic blelow; The tender frame's rear steps, which had been glued on by previous owner, had to be thinned to clear the new springs but I

would have done that anyway. At the back, etched steps, buffer steps, lamp irons (wonky one to correct!) and white metal vacuum pipes added.

The guard irons were fashioned from spare etch fret as the Brassmasters version (smaller pic) is compromised for Hornby's giant coupling.

 

 

 

That's it for now. Tender is awaiting Smiths or Exactoscale screw-link coupling, etched works plates a few more mods at the front end.

Not forgetting some scars to be filled but next I will make a start on the loco… and will also attempt to take some better photos!

[Blackthorn]

I'm looking forward to see how this goes. I have a Hornby 8F that I would like to improve, even if it's just replacing the front pony truck! (I think that is the item that drives me nuts the most). I do like the look of the Brassmasters detailing kit, I just have to work up the courage to get the knife out. As you point out seeing someone else do it to help you get on with it!!

 

I can't wait to see some more pictures, I can feel the itch already.

 

Cheers.

 

Mark.

[Guest stuartp]

Thinned… and some! Maybe I should have started on the tender frames first until I got the hang of using the router – it took less than a couple

of minutes to 'remove the sizable chunk on the right… B***ER! If anyone has any suggestions of how to to remedy this please let me know.

 

 

Either build up the hole with superglue gel a bit at a time then gently file and scrape with a round-ended Exacto blade to get it flush, or get a small lump of Milliput or similar and squash it on so it's oversize all round, then file and scrape as for the superglue. First method is more durable, second is easier to do as the putty is more easily worked than the rock hard cyano.

 

I've got two of these to do, I shall be watching with interest !

[coachmann]

This Hornby Stanier tender is actually an old moulding left over from toy days, and it features a footplate 'angle' that was never there on real Stanier tenders. Quite why Hornby has never updated this tender is a mystery, although cynics have their point of view!

 

It is difficult to remove this unwanted moulding without damaging the axlebox springs, but while it's there, any drastic re-detailing as you have carried out seems a bit of a waste.......I once referred to it as like gold-plating a plastic spoon.

[Mucky Duck]

.......I once referred to it as like gold-plating a plastic spoon.

 

Thank you Larry – and I do love the analogy – but I spend hours poring over images of the loco then someone points out a fault that is so

bl**din' obvious I do wonder if I wasn't seeing the wood for the trees! I really don't know whether to laff me socks off or cry!

 

As the photo shows, Bachmann has made a much better job of it with the Jubilee. I could try to remove the offending moulding by prising

off the springs, giving me some room to play with but the insurmountable problem is that the tender's front steps are part of the whole

horrid moulding.

 

Think I'll have to raid another Black 5 for its tender frame and start again or see if I can get a Bachmann spare. Either way, a serious

rethink is in order.

 

Anyway, Stuart, thanks for your filling-in tips and Mark, I've already progressed quite a way with the loco so will post some more pics

very soon.

 

[Guest Max Stafford]

I suppose an etched underframe kit would be in order. I hadn't picked up on this error myself and the difference is indeed dramatic.

I did say I'd be bouncing a bit of commerce Artisan 100's way...

 

Dave.

[Pinkmouse]

I'd just bite the bullet and buy the Comet etched tender kit. It really does go together very well, and as the sides are pre-rolled, is an ideal starter for a beginner. Have a look here for a couple of pics.

[Mucky Duck]

Dave, I googled Artisan 100 and couldn't find anything… or have I missed something?

 

Pinkmouse, thanks for the link and your Comet tender really does look great – there's something about a brass model – I feel it's almost a shame

to paint over it! However, apart from finances at the mo, I'm taking things one step at a time and I'll probably tackle a full tender kit when I've

sorted this 'upgrade' one way or another and I feel confident enough with my skills. I'll see how I get on with folding and soldering the Comet bogie!

 

Interesting to note on reading Tim Shackleton's MRJ article again, he makes no mention of the footplate angle but does confess to being 'not one to

look too closely at models – with my limited skills, I daren't'.

[John B]

Dave, I googled Artisan 100 and couldn't find anything… or have I missed something?

 

Artisan 100 (as Geoff is known on RMWeb) is the current proprietor of Comet Models....

[Mucky Duck]

Thanks John for the heads up on Artisan 100… I really should have twigged that it was a username!

 

 

Ahem… moving swiftly on to the loco, I suspect that it's an older model than the 'swapped' tender as the handrail knobs were much

bigger… so out they came, along with the smokebox door handle, soon to be followed by the lamp irons and the little grab handles

by the works plates – the steps will stay though. The old buffer beam is also sliced off very carefully with a new scalpel. It's

surprising how chunky all the detailing appears through a macro lens… look at the size of those rivets at the top of the smokebox

and how thick the frames and the base of the chimney are!

 

 

The centre panel beneath the smokebox is something else Hornby has got completely wrong – it should be indented with a pipe

on the left (just visible in the ptotoype image) and something that I discovered only once I'd applied all the new detailing…

well, you live and learn!

 

 

As Brassmasters didn't have any buffers in stock when I bought the kit, I carefully cut out and kept the Hornby ones…

 

 

 

… and after attaching the new etched buffer beam and enlarging the buffer locating holes, I glued them back into position. This is not strictly

necessary as you may find the Hornby buffer beam is quite passable and the etched overlay is really meant to replace the un-riveted version.

Still, for the little time it took, it was worth it in my eyes. Also visible here are the frame overlays, which were easier to add with body attached.

 

 

 

There are two ways to attach the dummy frame overlays and motion bracket – in one piece or snap each at one of the joins and do them in

two parts. I chose the latter… try as I might I could not winkle them into position in one piece whilst getting the motion bracket lined up and

attached to the slidebars. Looking at the photo it's difficult to see how I could have achieved it one piece and the motion bracket is easier done

with the body off, unlike the frames, which fit nicely against the inner side of cylinder and can rest against the underside of the body whilst the

glue sets.

 

 

 

Word of warning: To accommodate various wheels from OO to P4, there are two half-etched arc lines on the reverse of the fret for you to file

to. I cannot stress highly enough how close to the action you need to secure the frames in a vice while you do this, filing quite gently and just

a little at a time. Like a silly sausage, I managed to buckle not one but BOTH frames, luckily not enough prevent getting them roughly back

into line. I'm slowly realising that patience is one of the greatest virtues required for this hobby.

 

The relief valves are glued (or soldered) to cylinder covers which in turn are simply glued to the cylinder fronts (the rivets need punching

through beforehand). The drain cocks require just a couple of drilled holes and a dot of glue. Hornby's Black 5 cylinders have the lower inner

quarter missing and sources have suggested filling them but I've left them (for the time being at least) as I don't think they're visible enough.

 

 

 

 

[Bernard Lamb]

I like the way you have added the frame pieces with the body off. So much easier than the struggle I had to push 'em up from underneath with every thing else in place. Your photo does show the superb quality of the castings for the draincocks and associsted pipe work. The Brassmasters, to my eye, are much better than the Gibson version. One point that I have always considered to be not worth the efort is changing the axle boxes. Yes I know that the replacements have more depth but can you notice the difference in most views?

Bernard

[26power]

Recent MRJ 200 had an upgrade of a Hornby 8F.  Assuming it's the same tender (I guess it is) I think they got rid of the "valence" by fitting a Comet underframe to the Hornby body.

 

Front bufferbeam.  I seem to recall Coachmann suggesting it needed to be deeper to get the buffer height right?  It's with his stuff on here.

 

Watching with interest.

 

Cheers,

 

26power.

 

 

[Mucky Duck]

Bernard, yes, changing those axle boxes was a bit of a grind, literally, but I thought I'd have a go seeing as they came with the kit.

At normal exhibition viewing distances I'd say that it's probably not worth it but I'd like this loco to stand up to the close scrutiny

of a macro lens and until I give the new bits a coat of matt black I can't really answer that.

 

26power, I still haven't received my issue of MRJ… grrr! If it's the Stanier (rather than the Fowler) version, the 8F's will be the

same 4000 gallon tender. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not up for going the Comet route just yet but I have a few Black 5s and 8Fs

that I'll want to modify eventually so definitely in the future. In the meantime, I think I might just have a stab at getting rid of that

valance… having removed the tender top, it looks a tough one, but do-able!

 

I'll investigate Coachmann's front buffer height suggestion too… it sounds interesting.

 

Ryan

[coachmann]

Ryan said :

I'll investigate Coachmann's front buffer height suggestion too… it sounds interesting.

A link is given below.....

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/blog/310/entry-2079-loco-detail-weathering-coachmann/

 

Cheers,

Larry

[Mucky Duck]

As Brassmasters don't do a replacement bogie for a Black 5 I bought a Comet one, plus wheels – not sure if they're Comet's own or Comet gets

them from Alan Gibson. This combination makes the biggest difference to the model. The kit allows one to make a OO, EM or P4 bogie.

 

 

 

Luckily for me, the OO version is just cut from the fret in one piece and folded over… simples!

 

 

 

The stretcher box section is reinforced with solder. I made a really scruffy job of this on account of a. not having soldered since 1976 b. having

too large a tip on my soldering iron c. using so-called fluxless solder… yeah, right!!!

 

I decided not to risk messing up the sideframe overlays so I put the soldering iron away and glued them instead, as I did the wire at either end

of the sideframes, which came from a medium-sized safety pin!

 

 

 

Hornby's bogie looks an absolute monster compared with Comet's almost delicate frame. The hornways needed only a slight brush with a file

to get the axles in freely, with wire threaded through holes in the centre box section to retain them. Now ready for testing.

 

 

 

Hmmm… Comet's swing link wasn't long enough and the wheels didn't fall correctly within the arches!!! So I had to bash Hornby's bogie and

use the one from that. Comet suggests several ways to spring the bogie and I chose the simplest, as is my nature.

 

 

 

There still seems a fair amount of daylight showing… with these flanges maybe I could have got away with filing only to the P4 line on

the frames… and I've just noticed a bend in one of the connecting rods!

 

 

 

The Comet fret is a thicker gauge than that of Brassmasters. Different purposes, I know but I couldn't put as sharp a kink as I'd like in the

front guard irons. You can also see how I buckled both frame overlays at their narrowest point, mentioned in the earlier section.

 

 

 

I haven't tested the bogie in anger yet but it at least looks so much better than Hornby's effort!

 

 

 

The remainder of Brassmasters body add-ons will be tackled next…

 

 

Thanks for the link Larry… just got it!

 

 

 

[coachmann]

I must say the Comet bogie does look the bees knees and adds immensely to the appearance of the front end.

[Ben Alder]

Thanks for sharing this- it is most informative and clearly laid out. I have been avoiding doing this same mod. due to the fact that I have five 5's on shed and if one is converted then I'd probably want to do the rest. Seeing this though, is tipping me towards action; I'll be interested in seeing the axleboxes when painted as well.

Richard

[Jamie]

Superb thread.

 

I've similarly got a growing backlog of Black Fives which have been "roughed in" for the moment, but are crying out for this level of upgrade over the winter. I particularly like how you've arranged the Comet bogie mounting, ingenious. I must bookmark this thread for later reference.

[Mucky Duck]

Thank you so much for the encouragement but I would really thank Brassmasters and Comet for producing such user-friendly upgrades that

allow a novice to produce something that looks half decent.

 

I viewed Coachmann's excellent loco detailing blog with more than a hint of trepidation, due to the mention of the Hornby's front bufferbeam

being set too high and the trouble Larry had to go to modify it. No such problem with mine when offered against the tender, another standard

Hornby 5 and a Bachmann Jubilee (shown) and I wonder if it's something that Hornby has rectified in the last two or three years – I've yet to

check all my other (possibly older) Hornby Staniers but I know at least these two appear to be fine.

 

Not sure about that daylight above the cylinders though… hopefully it will all screw down!

 

I must admit to being really chuffed with Comet's bogie, especially as it's so easy to build despite trying to make it as difficult as possible for

myself by virtue of being a virgin in every aspect of this process. I'll certainly be getting one for the Jub.

 

 

 

Now the bogie has been sorted it's the body's turn for attention. Hornby's bulky hand rail knobs on the smokebox, boiler and cab were

replaced with the Alan Gibson short type. I think that longer ones for the boiler would have been better, looking at the prototype.

Appropriate gauge guitar string was used for the rails. The lovely smoke box door handle is of 3-piece turned brass, from Markits.

 

 

Another detail I missed which Coachmann illustrates is Hornby's footplate lacking the subtle curve of the prototype. I guess I'll have to

fashion this from plasticard – thankfully I don't need to bother about the lining – it will be disguised by very heavy weathering.

 

The Brassmaster body parts are generally easy-peasy with little more than drilling, bending and glueing required but some tiny parts are

extremely fiddly and without a real quality pair of pointy tweezers, it was a struggle getting some of them in the exact position. Not only

that, I found it easier to get rid of the 'tabs' from parts with a new scalpel as trying to file them off was just too fiddly for me! Mercifully,

there are spares of some parts on the fret and the sprues.

 

Here, steam lance (which appears to be disconnected on my prototype, 44890), gravity lubricators, vacuum gear and buffer steps shown.

The latter were 'dinked' on the back side with a blunt tool to give them the slightest of curves, otherwise the edges tend to stand too proud

– and that was further helped by taking a slither out of the top of the shanks. The grab handles on the front part of the footplate were

removed and thinner guitar string was used… next time I'll use something easier to bend. Replacement etched works plates are by Fox…

 

 

 

 

…I scraped away some paint on one of the Fox plates to try to reveal more detail… don't think it did much but I'll see how it looks when

weathered. The shed plate is from 247 Developments… she's now half way to becoming a Newton Heath loco.

 

 

 

 

Visible from from this angle is Brassmasters vacuum gear… I cheated and attached the lower pipe to the buffer beam – strictly speaking it

should sort of hang from a bracket. Also the bang plate, lifting rings and fiddly lamp irons – although the offset 'middle' one is a Hornby

original – inadvertently, I 'pinged' too many Brassmasters spares into oblivion!

 

 

 

 

The great thing about this upgrading lark is that you can take it just as far as you feel comfortable. Now this is the point that some may think

that I've 'lost it' and perhaps gone beyond the call of duty – I certainly wondered 'was it all worth it' when I'd finished! I don't know what these

boxes are called but they remind me of big fuse boxes with the wires coming out of them on the prototype. Hornby's effort looks pretty basic.

 

 

 

After thinking long and hard about how to improve this I decided that trying to drill six miniscule holes on each side of each box, then four

more lots of six holes, very accurately into the very hard footplate – then to thread wire through each hole individually – would have driven

me absolutely bananas! So I decided to make wire looms and pass then through slots in the boxes and footplate as one.

 

First I removed the boxes (with difficulty and not a little blood) and cut slots into the footplate with a sharp scalpel. The pipe in the left-hand

pic should continue and run through down the footplate behind the rear box, hence the big hole there. I then slotted each box on both sides

and prepared my loom from 0.3mm brass rod into a concertina.

 

 

 

The concertinas were squeezed tight to make threading them through the boxes easier… as if! Then the looms were bent more to shape,

the excess removed and were then 'teased' through the footplate and glued – much, much easier said than done!

 

 

 

Nearly there! Holes and gaps will be filled and the excess removed from beneath the footplate. Until the model is finished I remain unsure

about whether to go through this again, although using finer copper wire would help enormously – I think these wires are the same gauge

as the fire irons I made!!!

 

 

 

I don't know the name of this brass part is either, but it's nicely cast. To replace the Hornby one and get this in the correct position I found

that I had to make a very deep flange (for want of a better word). The pipe still has to be connected and finer wires attached to it, leading to

the cab. AWS cylinder is white metal, as are safety valves but I can't for the life of me find the whistle on any of the sprues even though it's

listed… shame then, that I removed the Hornby one first!

 

 

 

The Brassmasters steam injectors, unlike Comet's, do not have the pipes attached or included in the kit, so I'll have to make those at the next

stage, along with more under-cab detailing for which I'm still researching… I've heard that The Power of the Black 5s is an excellent book that

I ought to have!

 

 

 

 

[Horsetan]

The little boxes that you added the oil feed pipes to are the lubricators.

 

The brass part is, I think, the ejector.

[the penguin of doom]

Great thread!

 

I also have a couple waiting to go through the works.....

 

Keep the posts coming.

 

Sean.

[will5210]

The new bogie & wheels makes SUCH a difference!

 

I'm definately going to try on of them on one of my Pacifics.

 

 

[coachmann]

That Black Five is looking really neat now, and proves the Hornby model isnt that far out, but needs attention to detail. I discovered that the single biggest improvement to the look of the 'Fives' is the fitting of Brassmaster cylinder drain cocks.

[RedgateModels]

 

Angle iron strip and lifting lugs mostly disguise butchery beneath. Brassmasters front bulkhead overlay had to be trimmed around the

permanent coal and a hole was cut through the Hornby tender bulkhead.

 

 

Where did the angle iron strip come from - is it brassmasters? I can see that being very useful if available sperately

[iak]

This thread rocks...

Clear, concise and very stimulating - excellent.

Now seeing as this beastie of mine will be getting P4'd soon - the rest of project has a certain rocket up it now