k9-70 Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 First Open coaches built between 1951 & 1963 When would these coaches have been last used as a First Open coach in BR Blue livery and when would they have been downgraded to Second Open before being withdrawn from service K9-70 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 The inestimable Mr Carroll will no doubt have the full SP on this, but I dont think FOs were *routinely* downgraded to SO. There were however a number of air braked ones that were, probably around the late 70s. They'd originally been converted in the late 60s for use as dining cars with air braked Mk2 stock, as the original Mk2 builds only incorporated compartments in first class, and were eventually displaced from such work by later builds of Mk2, which did include FOs. Vac braked first class coaches were generally (not exclusively) prone to early withdrawal, as the cascading programme meant that older stock tended to be used on secondary services which didnt need so much first class provision Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 The original Mk1 First Open stock built was in 1951 and were 3 coaches: 3000-3002 This batch were the only ones with no centre door so externally they looked like the Bachmann Restaurant First. By 1976 only 3002 remained - based on the Midland, this coach had gone by 1978. M3002 had B4 bogies and dual heat by 1976 (only vacuum braked) and I seem to remember the photo of M3000 in Parkin also has B4 bogies (painted in maroon) but someone is borrowing that book from me at the moment. A British Railways Standard Stock Fleet List from 1970 (posted on Robert's site) states 3000-3002 as all being: Midland, Category A stock, B4 bogies, dual heat, vacuum braked and in Blue and Grey. The remaining FOs were as follows: 3003-3019 were from Lot 30008 built from 1954 and these had a centre door in with the middle seating bay. This split the middle window into two thin panes with the door in between. 3020 was the first FO to have the separate centre vestibule, Lot 30042 ordered 1953-4. All FOs up to and including 3100 were built with BR1 bogies except 3076-3080 (see post#7 from Mark54), 3101 - 3151 (commencing with Lot 30648, from 1961) were built with Commonwealth bogies. A small number of the FOs prior to 3101 got Commonwealth bogies (3028, 3035, 3068, 3076-80), virtually all of the remainder got B4s from the mid to late 1960s. At least 61 out of all the batches (the number shown in the 1976 RCTS Coaching Stock book) were given air brakes. From 1976 the Eastern began to officially declassify some FOs and painted out the yellow stripe and removed the '1's from the doors. The Western followed suit with their air braked FOs from 1977. As far as I know neither the Midland nor the Southern ever declassified their Mk1 FO stock. By 1988 the vast majority were based at Bounds Green, in InterCity executive livery (they were rebranding Swallow in early 1988) for use on the land cruise charter trains. This meant that they had reverted back to being First Class again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RANGERS Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 The Mk1 First Open stock built before 1954 were only 3 coaches: 3000-3002 This batch were the only ones with no centre door so externally they looked like the Bachmann Restaurant First (I'm guessing this is why you want to know about them). By 1976 only 3002 remained - based on the Midland, this coach had gone by 1978. The declassifying of the First Opens by the Western and Eastern Regions started in 1977 and that was only on the air braked ones. This official declassification meant the yellow stripe was painted out and the '1's removed from the doors. M3002 had B4 bogies and dual heat by 1976 (only vacuum braked) and I seem to remember the photo of M3000 in Parkin also has B4 bogies (painted in maroon) but someone is borrowing that book from me at the moment. A British Railways Standard Stock Fleet List from 1970 (posted on Robert's site) states 3000-3002 as all being: Midland, Category A stock, B4 bogies, dual heat, vacuum braked and in Blue and Grey. The 1976 RCTS Coaching Stock book does not have any of the FOs declassified so apart from temporary white labels being used on the windows they all would have been used for First Class passengers. I seem to remember at least one of these in a Midland Mainline Mk 1 set around 1978/ 9. That would have almost certainly have put it at Derby although there were odd coaches in these sets which carried E prefixes and I believe there was also a diagram for a full Eastern Region set (possibly the Leeds train?). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomag Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 In the early 80's the Transpennine LH stock regularly had pair of Mk1 FOs at the opposite end of the train from the BG (normally the east). Mostly these were the officially declassified 36xx series (ex 10xx restaurant mentioned above) but any of the Heaton, York or Liverpool air braked FOs could be seen; I think that at least one YC coach (3092) had the branding removed without renumbering and several others from the northern depots were as well. AFAIK both the BN and OM FOs remained as first class. From 1985 the early batches were withdrawn and the later ones (3100 and later) were concentrated in the tour/special sets and repainted IC. A considerable number of the current capital stock numbered FOs were departmental or private stock in the 80's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 As stated by Bomag, 13 of the late build FOs with Commonwealth bogies were renumbered 1058-1070 for use as Restaurant Seconds on the Eastern. These were renumbered to 3600-3611 in 1981/2 as open seconds (1062 had been withdrawn). The remaining six (3602, 3604, 3605, 3606, 3607 and 3608) reverted back to FOs from 1987-88 for use on the charter trains. The original Restaurant Firsts were numbers 1 to 11 (as modelled by Bachmann) having no centre doors, unlike the 13 FOs described above. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark54 Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 All FOs up to and including 3100 were built with BR1 bogies Slight correction - E3076-E3080 were built with Commonwealth bogies, being the prototypes for this type of bogie. A few vacuum braked examples were downgraded including E3077 & E3078 from the above batch in the early 1970s and E3003-E3006 which were downgraded by 01/01/1969. I believe all these vehicles ran on the GE section. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 Slight correction - E3076-E3080 were built with Commonwealth bogies, being the prototypes for this type of bogie. Mark Thanks for that Mark, I thought they had been given them later because of the gap from 3080 to 3101. I've amended my previous post to cover this. Always good to get more info. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 The service history of these vehicles is very complicated. Concentrating on the Diag 73 version (3020-3080, 3085-3151) in addition to the downgrading mentioned by Mark, some were reclassified as restaurant seconds and renumbered in the mid-1970s. Subsequently lots were downgraded to SO. In the mid-1980s the survivors were mostly in charter sets, some retaining blue/grey livery until repainted in Inter-City livery in the mid-1980s. These included vehicles which had been downgraded and were then restored to FO. The 1988 Platform 5 coaching stock book lists several still in blue/grey including some downgraded to SO. From 1967 many FO were converted to air brakes to run with Mark IIa/b/c stock where they were often used as restaurant cars. The second and third vehicles in this Exeter-Waterloo train from 1980 are downgraded to SO. December 1988 Motive Power Monthly had an article by Michael Harris on the 3104-3151 series. Numbers 3081-3084 were used for 1957 prototypes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 Back again. Replica Railways still make a Mk1 FO with the centre vestibule (although stocks left are possibly only in green). Glenn has repainted some blue and grey ones which I bought at Warley in 2009 into executive and swallow and the slightly depressed glazing does not look too bad. The remaining blue and grey FO I own I have started to fit with Replica Railways flush glaze. At only £2.50 a pack I felt it was worth the risk and the results are shown below. Four out of seven windows done, first photo taken with flash: alternative photo without camera flash (emphasised with deliberately reflected flourescent light) Yes you have to paint the ventilator frames yourself but I feel that with a little time and effort you have a Mk1 FO that could grace any rake of Bachmann stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9-70 Posted December 31, 2010 Author Share Posted December 31, 2010 Many thanks for the replies. K9-70 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnw1 Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 1953 built Mk I FO M3027 in blue/grey at Derby in 1979 can be seen here http://pics-by-john.photoblog.org.uk/p55330547.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9-70 Posted January 2, 2011 Author Share Posted January 2, 2011 1953 built Mk I FO M3027 in blue/grey at Derby in 1979 can be seen here http://pics-by-john.photoblog.org.uk/p55330547.html Thanks for the link John. Many interesting photos including the ex LMS 50' Gangwayed Brake in BR Blue/Grey livery. K9-70 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chameleon Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Just out of curiosity, when did the first ever Mk1 appear and does it still exist? If not, what would be the oldest surviving MK1 left? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Corridor Third 24006 is reckoned to be the oldest Mark 1 still in existence from the first year of production 1951 (there are however another 18 still around from the same year in various states of repair. Sadly none of the two prototypes completed in 1950 have survived (unless anyone else knows differently)! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classsix T Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I've been round the houses looking for this topic, Google brought me back to RMWeb via Flood's images! As stated by Bomag, 13 of the late build FOs with Commonwealth bogies were renumbered 1058-1070 for use as Restaurant Seconds on the Eastern. These were renumbered to 3600-3611 in 1981/2 as open seconds (1062 had been withdrawn). The remaining six (3602, 3604, 3605, 3606, 3607 and 3608) reverted back to FOs from 1987-88 for use on the charter trains. The original Restaurant Firsts were numbers 1 to 11 (as modelled by Bachmann) having no centre doors, unlike the 13 FOs described above. I've read and re-read this thread but still feel I'm missing something. Am I to understand that Bachmann's RU (as it is in Blue/Grey livery) wouldn't be suitable for use in an ECML air-braked ETH rake in May 1980? I'm using the (January) 1981 edition of Platform 5's Coaching Stock book as my bible and as you say, the later (centre door ex-FO) RSOs are listed, were Nos 1-11 withdrawn by this time? And if I did want an ex-FO to partner my RBR I should really repaint the Replica FO accordingly? (Awkward as the two I have are employed on my "Merrymaker" set!) Forgive my ignorance, C6T. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan452 Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Back again. Replica Railways still make a Mk1 FO with the centre vestibule (although stocks left are possibly only in green). Glenn has repainted some blue and grey ones which I bought at Warley in 2009 into executive and swallow and the slightly depressed glazing does not look too bad. Yes you have to paint the ventilator frames yourself but I feel that with a little time and effort you have a Mk1 FO that could grace any rake of Bachmann stock. Does anybody know if Replica are likely to produce any more 'Raspberry Ripple' (Swallow) ones? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 i couldn't see it on the Replica site, but it was only a quick look Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9-70 Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 Replica Railways show on their site the following BR Mk1 coaches in kit form only, FO, TSO & BCK, and are available in: BR SR Green & BR WR Maroon. No sign of blue/grey or raspberry ripple Intercity lieries. At £25.30 + P&P, they are not cheap. The examples of Replica Railways Mk1 coaches I have are branded Bachmann not Replica Railways. The above could be the last of the old Kader/Bachmann stock that Replica Railways had manufactured for them in the late 80's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomag Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I've been round the houses looking for this topic, Google brought me back to RMWeb via Flood's images! I've read and re-read this thread but still feel I'm missing something. Am I to understand that Bachmann's RU (as it is in Blue/Grey livery) wouldn't be suitable for use in an ECML air-braked ETH rake in May 1980? I'm using the (January) 1981 edition of Platform 5's Coaching Stock book as my bible and as you say, the later (centre door ex-FO) RSOs are listed, were Nos 1-11 withdrawn by this time? And if I did want an ex-FO to partner my RBR I should really repaint the Replica FO accordingly? (Awkward as the two I have are employed on my "Merrymaker" set!) Forgive my ignorance, C6T. The Bachman/Farish RU is the un-refurbished version so is only suitable for RU/RUB versions not the RBR version of the late 70's. The only RU/RUBs listed for the ER in the 1980 P5 edition 1950 (RUB) vb stream B5 and 1981 (RU) air dual heated C - so the latter is the a possibility but it had been refurbished by 1981. All the RFOs (1-11) were withdrawn by 1980, W4 was converted to 975796 in 1978, I assume the others had gone around the same time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted January 3, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 3, 2012 can't find my parkin book to check the diagram/layout, but didn't ECML trains use RUOs? 48 loose seats, so 8 bays of 2+1 (looked like a TSO) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted January 3, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 3, 2012 The Bachman/Farish RU is the un-refurbished version so is only suitable for RU/RUB versions not the RBR version of the late 70's. The only RU/RUBs listed for the ER in the 1980 P5 edition 1950 (RUB) vb stream B5 and 1981 (RU) air dual heated C - so the latter is the a possibility but it had been refurbished by 1981. All the RFOs (1-11) were withdrawn by 1980, W4 was converted to 975796 in 1978, I assume the others had gone around the same time. i have the august 1979 P5 book and it has: No RFO 9 RUO nos. in the range E1021-E1054 (48 loose chairs) 13 RSO nos.E1058-1070 (42 seats, conv. from FO) unrefurbed RU: E1936/1937, vs, gresley bogies, 33 loose chairs E1950, vs, B4 bogie seating end B5 kitchen end, 33 chairs E1960/79, vs, CW bogies, 24 chairs E1963/67/75/76/83/87/88, ad, CW , 29 chairs E1974, vs, CW, 33 chairs E1979, vs, CW, 24 chairs E1980/89, ad, CW, 33 chairs it would seem that refurbishment was in full swing and even without buffet counters being added, there were 2 or 3 seating layouts, possibly connected with using former seating bays for storage - this is noted in parkin saying some mods received a diagram change, but others didn't. as ever, a dated pic of your chosen example would be required to be certain! didn't Bachmann used to do an RU on gresley bogies (years ago)? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan452 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Replica Railways show on their site the following BR Mk1 coaches in kit form only, FO, TSO & BCK, and are available in: BR SR Green & BR WR Maroon. No sign of blue/grey or raspberry ripple Intercity lieries. At £25.30 + P&P, they are not cheap. A pity as I need several raspberry ripple ones for my 'kettle special' having missed out on their original release. Unless Bachmann are going to come up with the goods? didn't Bachmann used to do an RU on gresley bogies (years ago)? They did but I promptly bought some spare Commonwealth bogies to replace them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 didn't Bachmann used to do an RU on gresley bogies (years ago)? Yes it was the original 39-100 E1938. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TedW Posted August 27, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 27, 2013 Bachmann also did a maroon RU 39-101 with Gresley bogies numbered E1926 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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