LMS push-pull coaches.

[buffalo]

...On the 1949-56 BR carmine red, lining took the form of a single "yellow" & black line above the windows and immedietly below the windows...

 

Photos of the D1790 M24466 (I'm fairly certain that's the correct number) showing it in use in the last days of the service on the Wells branch in Sept/Oct 1951 show it painted much as Larry describes. However, the line below the windows is yellow-black-yellow. The yellow line above the windows is clearly visible, though I can't be entirely certain whether there is also a black line here. There is also a yellow line just below the cantrail and, again, I'm uncertain whether there is any black.

 

On the other hand, the 1950 photo of the ex-LNWR M71 M24477 appears to be unlined.

 

Nick

[coachmann]

Buffalo :

Photos of the D1790 M24466 (I'm fairly certain that's the correct number) showing it in use in the last days of the service on the Wells branch in Sept/Oct 1951 show it painted much as Larry describes. However, the line below the windows is yellow-black-yellow. The yellow line above the windows is clearly visible, though I can't be entirely certain whether there is also a black line here. There is also a yellow line just below the cantrail and, again, I'm uncertain whether there is any black.

 

That is because the coach is carrying LMS crimson lake or postwar maroon with LMS style lining even though it might have BR Gils Sans insignia in place of LMS style markings. Coaches built or repainted up to around April 1949 continued to receive Big Four liveries until instruction was given to use the new BR colours.

[buffalo]

Thanks, Larry. I thought it would be something like that. Am I right in thinking that the two upper lines are just yellow, without any black?

 

Nick

[coachmann]

Am I right in thinking that the two upper lines are just yellow, without any black?

 

Yes.

[JZ]

Many thank for all the contributions so far. I have started building some SR p-p coaches, Roxey 4E44 &4E45. Some pictures of these may follow, but do not expect them to be anywhere as good as Larry's coaches. With other things in the pipeline, I cannot yet invest in some kits for the xLMS stock, but I have this evening won a Farish and an Airfix suburban brakes. One of these will have a Comet driving end fitted. Not correct as Larry pointed out, but, for the time being it will have to do. I just need something on the front. While I look for a 1P, were any Jintys pp fitted ?

[coachmann]

were any Jintys pp fitted ?

Yes. 47478 was push pull fitted for working Swansea-Brynamman service. Nos. 7477 - 81, 7655 and 7681 were push pull fittted by the LMS. The auto gear was mounted on the LH side of the smokebox and the extra pipe was fitted to the left of the coupling with top of pipe just above footplate.

[buffalo]

Yes. 47478 was push pull fitted for working Swansea-Brynamman service...

Talking of which, there's another thread here on this line where midlander was asking questions about some of the push pull stock. I could help with some by just reading from Jenkinson & Essery, but there were also questions about ex-LNWR coaches and, as you know, that's something I know nothing about

 

Nick

[Penlan]

Yes. 47478 was push pull fitted for working Swansea-Brynamman service. Nos. 7477 - 81, 7655 and 7681 were push pull fittted by the LMS. The auto gear was mounted on the LH side of the smokebox and the extra pipe was fitted to the left of the coupling with top of pipe just above footplate.

7479 and 7481 are illustrated on the Bryamman - Swansea St. Thomas Push Pull service in 'The Origins of the LMS in South Wales', Gomer Press, the Auto-Gear can be clearly seen - photo's by Casserley as ever.

 

In the 'Neath and Brecon Railway, A History', Gomer Press, there's a photo of 47479 at Colbren Junction on a SLS Special, 14/7/1956 and the engine runs round the two coaches, although it can be plainly seen one has 3 windows in the end, a Push-Pull carriage - presumably the other carriage would have had the through pipework etc., - these carriages look like those in the above LMS book. Again Casserley.

 

I know I should know a little about LNWR coaches, but anything post Arc roofs is to modern for me!!!!!

 

I don't recall seeing any photo's of LNWR coaches (especially P-P) working regularly in this area, although of course there were some L&Y coaches allocated to the MT&A line during the LMS period (info., from the late Bill Tasker) - so all sorts appeared almost anywhere on the LMS system, especially in the backwaters..

 

This is now cross referenced to the Swansea Vale query too.

[DS239]

I have this evening won a Farish and an Airfix suburban brakes. One of these will have a Comet driving end fitted.

 

Well,there's only one option really,fit the Comet end on the Farish coach..

As Larry said,forget the Airfix version for P/P conversion..

[coachmann]

I don't recall seeing any photo's of LNWR coaches (especially P-P) working regularly in this area,

I won't pretend I know anything about the LNWR in South Wales, but I have cine to video footage by either Whitehouse or Camwell of LNWR 'Coal Tanks' working elderly LNWR arc roof stock in very bleached LMS crimson lake on one of the Valley lines circa 1949.

[Penlan]

Sorry Coachman, I should have said LNWR coaches on the Midland Rly's Swansea Vale lines,

the LNWR is/was the MT&A of course, and their other line - the Central Wales line.

 

I think I have seen the cine film long ago, either at the late Geoff Platt's or Mike Longbridge's, so long ago........

It may well have been Camwell's film, then he would have shown it to us at a HMRS meeting in Worcester in the 70's.

I do recall wherever it was though, Mike Morton-Lloyd was there too.

[Penlan]

I see we normally call these coaches Push Pull's - as per the Topic Heading

but looking at this photo, I see they actually have Pull & Push written on the end(s)

 

 

 

Image from the Gloucester Transport History web site, Modelling N Gauge page at :-

 

http://glostransport...Pull%20YTT.html

[JZ]

Great find there Penlan. Just had a look at the other photo's on the site. The one you have posted is unlined, but others are. They all have a wealth of detail.

[midlander]

7479 and 7481 are illustrated on the Bryamman - Swansea St. Thomas Push Pull service in 'The Origins of the LMS in South Wales', Gomer Press, the Auto-Gear can be clearly seen - photo's by Casserley as ever.

 

In the 'Neath and Brecon Railway, A History', Gomer Press, there's a photo of 47479 at Colbren Junction on a SLS Special, 14/7/1956 and the engine runs round the two coaches, although it can be plainly seen one has 3 windows in the end, a Push-Pull carriage - presumably the other carriage would have had the through pipework etc., - these carriages look like those in the above LMS book. Again Casserley.

 

I know I should know a little about LNWR coaches, but anything post Arc roofs is to modern for me!!!!!

 

I don't recall seeing any photo's of LNWR coaches (especially P-P) working regularly in this area, although of course there were some L&Y coaches allocated to the MT&A line during the LMS period (info., from the late Bill Tasker) - so all sorts appeared almost anywhere on the LMS system, especially in the backwaters..

 

This is now cross referenced to the Swansea Vale query too.

Hello. re the loco running round P-P trains, I guess by then that because the P-P apparatus had not been used on a regular basis since the passenger service ceased in 1950, it may well have fallen into disuse, no maintenence etc. also I once got told off because I noted that Jintys 7655 & 7681 were P-P equipped where in actual fact they were not. It was only the first 5 that were. Apparently it was a mistaken entry in a Combined somewhere. I've seen a photo, courtesy of the Kidderminster Railway Museum of 47681 and it shows just one vac bag front and back.

regards, Midlander.

[Penlan]

Midlander, I'm copying this over to the Swansea Vale Topic, and will then continue the loco related postings on there.

[coachmann]

Pull Push written on the ends of LMR driving trailers was not unusual. As often as not one sees PL PH.

[buffalo]

Just returning for a moment to M24466 as photographed in 1951...

 

Buffalo : That is because the coach is carrying LMS crimson lake or postwar maroon with LMS style lining even though it might have BR Gils Sans insignia in place of LMS style markings. Coaches built or repainted up to around April 1949 continued to receive Big Four liveries until instruction was given to use the new BR colours.

 

My D1790 is now sitting here in primer waiting for me to summon the courage to try airbrushing the LMS crimson lake sides. Would both ends be black as on other LMS coaches in this late livery, or would the driving end still be painted red?

 

Nick

[muswellmetro1]

On 08/03/2011 at 15:46, coachmann said:

Buffalo sent me some pictures via a PM and so to bring this thread up to date I attach the following....

 

The first picture behind 1P 0-4-4T 58086 is an LMS Period II push-pull driving trailer in LMS lined livery but with M prefix number. Example numbers being 24405, 24460-24468 without duckets.

 

Larry

I know this thread is long closed but my local push pull was M24460M AND IT HAD DUCKETS being converted after it went into service

[TheSignalEngineer]

3 hours ago, muswellmetro1 said:

I know this thread is long closed but my local push pull was M24460M AND IT HAD DUCKETS being converted after it went into service

Made that one as a cut'n'shut using two Airfix/Dapol suburbans as donors.

[brossard]

20 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Made that one as a cut'n'shut using two Airfix/Dapol suburbans as donors.

 

The Airfix suburbans are not really suitable for conversion since they had lavs.  The coaches in question were designed for a specific route and the class was pretty small.

 

IMO, the easiest way to go is to convert Hornby's LMS Stanier PIII non corridor brake coach.  You can fit the Comet end.  For me, the hardest and most terrifying part of the conversion was removal of the ducket.  However, your pic shows one with duckets.  Maybe more research is in order.

 

 

You will need to convert a loco to PP configuration which involves the vacuum regulator gear.  My research turned up two locos:  Jinty 7479 and 2-4-2T 10644, both available from Bachmann although not PP fitted and not with these numbers.  I scratch built the regulator and added the extra vacuum pipes.

 

Really though, we've never had a RTR LMS PP set (as far as I know) and one is long overdue.

 

John

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, brossard said:

You will need to convert a loco to PP configuration which involves the vacuum regulator gear.  My research turned up two locos:  Jinty 7479 and 2-4-2T 10644, both available from Bachmann although not PP fitted and not with these numbers.  I scratch built the regulator and added the extra vacuum pipes.

 

 

Bachmann now have five classes of loco suitable for LMS/LMR pull and push conversion in their recent range: the 1P 0-4-4T, coal tank, Lanky radial, Jinty and Ivatt 2 tank.  The last of these has even been manufactured with the vacuum regulator gear in the past.

 

[JZ]

On 04/03/2022 at 16:43, muswellmetro1 said:

I know this thread is long closed

Threads are never closed. It's good to see the search facility being used so others can gain knowledge already imparted, rather than starting a new one and everyone going over it again and again.

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 05/03/2022 at 16:54, brossard said:

The Airfix suburbans are not really suitable for conversion since they had lavs.  The coaches in question were designed for a specific route and the class was pretty small.

LMS built 170  CL and 273  BTL 57ft coaches between 1926 and 1930.The Airfix / Dapol ones only cover the last 25 of each type. The earlier ones were in Period 1 panelled style. There were also a few 54ft coaches built for the LT&S line.

This was my 6 compartment BT made from Airfix donors. I also made a 9 compartment Third.

 

 

They did get around a lot in later years, even being photographed at Bath Green Park. We used to get them at New Street particularly on stopping trains from Stoke and Stafford, and even Manchester, up to the coming of DMUs. There is a picture showing an Airfix type CL with Period 1 Panelled Composite and BTL on a train from Rugeley there in 1958.

Edited April 10, 2022 by TheSignalEngineer
Picture restored

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 05/03/2022 at 16:54, brossard said:

For me, the hardest and most terrifying part of the conversion was removal of the ducket.  However, your pic shows one with duckets.

The duckets on the Hornby BT are separately applied. IIRC they are only held on by two spigots glued into the coach side, so just two holes to fill for the early P3 Diagram 1856 type. These were 24410 to 24429.

 

There was another thread on LMS Pull-Push coaches about 3 years ago where I posted this picture.

 See

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/145574-ex-lms-pushpull-conversion-questions/&do=findComment&comment=3595607

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by TheSignalEngineer

[brossard]

16 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

The duckets on the Hornby BT are separately applied. IIRC they are only held on by two spigots glued into the coach side, so just two holes to fill for the early P3 Diagram 1856 type. These were 24410 to 24429.

 

There was another thread on LMS Pull-Push coaches about 3 years ago where I posted this picture.

 See

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/145574-ex-lms-pushpull-conversion-questions/&do=findComment&comment=3595607

 

 

Nice work, good to see that others are having a bash at these.  The two spigot holes do need filling obviously but sanding smooth without  damaging the rest of the coach and matching the paint is pretty fraught.  Some of the lining did get damaged but HMRS LMS lining came to the rescue.  I did a decent job I think but it does require skill.

 

I recall looking around to see if any coaches retained their duckets but couldn't find any examples.  From above posts there does seem to be evidence of this.

 

John