GWR Iron Mink questions

[hayfield]

I have just brought 3 Iron Mink wagons, looking at the Romford wheels I think the kit dates back ot the 60s/70s. I am guessing its made by ABS, is that correct please.

 

Its had a quick dunk in caustic soda, as it was comming apart anyway, all whitemetal except a plasticard roof and floor. Built as a Vacumed braked version.

 

2 other kit built vans arrived with it

 

Were some transfered to the SR for gunpowder vans, or should it be in GWR livery? Has a different set of doors, flush pannelled.

 

Questions about brakes please, as I think I will have to swap sides of the 2 GWR ones to get the correct combination

 

 

Non fitted stock brakes one side only ? were the V hangers one or both sides and 1 or 2 brake levers

 

Fitted stock were the small V hangers at both ends or either side at opposite ends. I have looked at both my GWR wagon books and can see both examples, or it may just be a trick of the light. The central brake gear would be on both sides?

 

Thanks in advance

[industrial]

I am 99% sure they are ABS kits.

 

The ones built as Iron Minks had the long brake leaver (ie not DC 1 brakes)on one side only when built. From the 30s they were fitted with brakes on both sides, normally with only one brake block on that side, with the V only on the side with brakes. Some were converted from the gunpowder wagons (these were fitted with planked doors) and some of these were fitted with the DC 1 brakes (the Z1 gunpowder vans were a real mixed batch of brakes). Most of these were fitted with the additional brakes in the late 30s as they were missed before.

 

The one in SR livery will be the ex LSWR ones which were built to the same design as the GWR ones. All the gunpowder ones have flush doors.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... Were some transfered to the SR for gunpowder vans ...

The Iron Mink design was adopted sometime early in C20th as the basis for the RCH standard gunpowder van for use on the UK railway, examples were built by many companies. There will have been detail variations in components, but the basic minkiness of the design is obvious.

[Barry Ten]

The Iron Mink design was adopted sometime early in C20th as the basis for the RCH standard gunpowder van for use on the UK railway, examples were built by many companies. There will have been detail variations in components, but the basic minkiness of the design is obvious.

 

Shirescenes do the conversion parts to transform the Ratio Iron Mink into a GPV; apart from the change to the doors the end ventilator has to be removed. I'm sure the parts would work with these castings as well. I'm actually in the process of doing a couple of Ratio conversions myself.

[buffalo]

Although originally built with single sided lever brakes, some V6 MINK were fitted with either DC1 or DC111 brakes when repaired. Some of the DC111 version were vacuum fitted, and ten had been originally built with Armstrong vacuum brakes.

 

Your last photo shows DC1 parts. The ratchet and swan-neck lever (between the hanger and the W-iron at the right hand end) should be on the same side as the brakes. The rest of the swan neck is missing, it should pass behind the W-iron and extend to the central V-hanger. The swan-neck lever works just as a normal lever brake, except that it is raised by the ratchet/short lever mechanism to operate. From the short operating lever, there should be a shaft across the end of the wagon to another small hanger and lever. This way there are two short levers at the same end.

 

The problem with the parts shown in the last photo is that the side without brakes needs to have the hanger and lever at the left hand end. You need to remove the brakes from one side and put them on the other. Then remove the swan-neck and ratchet between the hanger and W-iron on the non-brake side. You could also add a representation of the rest of the swan-neck lever and a cross shaft between the hand levers.

 

DC111 brakes have small levers and hangers at the right hand end on both sides but there is no swan-neck lever. Braking action is transferred to a crank on a central cross-shaft by cranks fitted underneath the van on the lever cross-shafts.

 

Nick

[industrial]

Shirescenes do the conversion parts to transform the Ratio Iron Mink into a GPV; apart from the change to the doors the end ventilator has to be removed. I'm sure the parts would work with these castings as well. I'm actually in the process of doing a couple of Ratio conversions myself.

 

ABS do/did alternate doors as well. Don't forget the Ratio Iron Mink is too high and with other mistakes as well.

[Il Grifone]

IIRC some GWR vans were converted to gunpowder vans for the SR about the time of WW II. I 'll check with my HMRS book.

 

AFAIK only ABS did a whitemetal kit for an iron MINK. There are at least two versions of the Ratio one.

[Adam]

AFAIK only ABS did a whitemetal kit for an iron MINK. There are at least two versions of the Ratio one.

 

Not quite. Both LSWR and LNWR gunpowder vans (and possibly more) were available. By providing different doors (the gunpowder van doors are double-sided giving different variants from memory), different brakegear and through modifying the patterns - very clever this - with a range of different axleguards, several different types can (still) be had from the ABS kit. I have an LNWR version somewhere. Not to hand unfortunately, so not photographable at the moment.

 

Adam

[hayfield]

Thanks for the quick replies, I think I have got the gist, now by mixing and matching both GWR vans I could get the following combination.

 

2 sides with small V hangers at both ends and central brake gear on both sides, all I have to find/make will be 2 small brake levers.

 

2 sides where I have no small V hangers at the ends and no central brake gear or V hangers, but does have 2 long brake handles. Therefore I can fit brake gear on either 1 side or both, if only on 1 side then no V hanger or long brake lever on the non braked side.

 

Thanks for the info on the SR gun powder van, it has no vents on the ends, central brake gear on one side only but V hangers and brabe levers on both.

 

Or have I got it all wrong!!

[industrial]

Not quite. Both LSWR and LNWR gunpowder vans (and possibly more) were available. By providing different doors (the gunpowder van doors are double-sided giving different variants from memory), different brakegear and through modifying the patterns - very clever this - with a range of different axleguards, several different types can (still) be had from the ABS kit. I have an LNWR version somewhere. Not to hand unfortunately, so not photographable at the moment.

 

Adam

 

ABS kits.

 

699 LNWR Gunpowder Van

899 LSWR Gunpowder Van

275 GWR Gunpowder Van

295 GWR Iron Mink.

 

Also

 

253 to convert 295 to Barry Railway Iron Mink.

 

No Iron Mink were built with DC brakes. Some Z1 and the Cordite Vans had DC1 and DC3 Vac brakes, but when converted to use as Iron Minks had the planked doors.

[buffalo]

2 sides with small V hangers at both ends and central brake gear on both sides, all I have to find/make will be 2 small brake levers.

 

DC1: Hangers/levers on both sides at the same end. Side with lever at right has the ratchet and swan-neck.

 

DC111: Hangers/levers on both sides at right hand ends only. There are other hangers and short cross-shafts underneath. Shafts are about 1/3 underframe width at one end, 2/3 at the other.

 

2 sides where I have no small V hangers at the ends and no central brake gear or V hangers, but does have 2 long brake handles. Therefore I can fit brake gear on either 1 side or both, if only on 1 side then no V hanger or long brake lever on the non braked side.

Yes, this is the as built state. Brakes on both sides are unlikely before 1927 at the earliest.

 

...No Iron Mink were built with DC brakes...

True, but

Although originally built with single sided lever brakes, some V6 MINK were fitted with either DC1 or DC111 brakes when repaired...

At least, according to Atkins et al.

 

Nick

[Penrhos1920]

 

No Iron Mink were built with DC brakes.

 

Actually 300 iron minks were built with DC1 brakes in 1906 and 1907. They were built for Spillers & Baker by Harrison & Camm of Rotherham. In June 1911 they were bought by the GWR. 30 were then sold to the Rhymney. As well as the brake gear there were several other distinguishing features. There are several photos in GWR and RR liveries in "All About GWR Iron Minks"

[industrial]

Actually 300 iron minks were built with DC1 brakes in 1906 and 1907. They were built for Spillers & Baker by Harrison & Camm of Rotherham. In June 1911 they were bought by the GWR. 30 were then sold to the Rhymney. As well as the brake gear there were several other distinguishing features. There are several photos in GWR and RR liveries in "All About GWR Iron Minks"

 

Yes these V15 had DC1 brakes but the bodies were different to the GWR ones as you mentioned, so will not be able to produce them from the ABS kits which the OP was on about. (this book seems to breed in my collection).

 

These were steel bodied vans so in the true sense they are steel minks not iron minks.

[wagonman]

Yes these V15 had DC1 brakes but the bodies were different to the GWR ones as you mentioned, so will not be able to produce them from the ABS kits which the OP was on about. (this book seems to breed in my collection).

 

These were steel bodied vans so in the true sense they are steel minks not iron minks.

 

 

Industrial is quite correct to point out that the exSpillers vans were different – that's why they were give a different diagram. Likewise the various iron mink clones inherited from some other Welsh lines had subtle differences like double V-hangers, commode handles on the end etc. All this and much, much more in the book "All about Iron Minks" by John Lewis & Others. When the DC1 vans were converted to RH either side configuration, to comply with BoT regulations, the usual method was to remove the LH side lever from the DC rake and fit the standard half-set lever brake on that side

 

The basic V6 iron minks were all built with standard lever brakes, most being fitted with a second half set of brakes in the late '20s – more or less as Nick said – though the second set of brakes did require its own v-hanger. Usually the brake shoe on this half set would be at the handle end. Watch out for the end vents – later builds of iron minks had deeper vent bonnets than the early ones. A few vans were converted for use as cordite paste vans in 1919: they were fitted with DC3 vac brakes which they retained when returned to traffic use in 1919. They ended up on Lyons tea traffic and most at least received planked doors.

 

A handful of these iron vans were built for use in passenger trains and had 10 foot wheelbase, 3' 7" wheels and 8-shoe vacuum operated clasp brakes. The handbraking arrangements were very different from the later DC3 type and it would require an entirely new underframe to build one of these.

 

With the ABS kit the best bet is to build a bog-standard V6 mink with ordinary lever brake on one side only. This would mean chopping off all the extraneous DC brake fittings. If your period is the 1930s then add the extra half brake. Variety is possible with different vent bonnet sizes and even replacement doors, but watch out for numbers as many iron minks were scrapped in the '30s. If you really must have a gunpowder van, and the DC1 brake fitted Z1 type is possible with this kit, don't forget there would be no end vents.

 

I think that's it....

[Il Grifone]

To clarify, I wrote, "AFAIK only ABS did a whitemetal kit for an iron MINK", not "ABS only made ....". I am not aware of any other manufacturer's whitemetal kit. (which doesn't mean there weren't any).

Indeed some vans were "improvised" for the Southern from 1937. 59061 is an example. Stated to be in the normal post 1937 livery with 'SR' in place of 'GW'. It was lettered 'IMPROVISED GUNPOWDER VAN', but this appears to have been for the official photo. I'm sure I've seen this photo somewhere - possibly in 'GW Wagons Appendix,?

 

 

EDIT (belated!) for finger trouble.

[hayfield]

Thanks for that, both GWR versions have now been stripped of paint and glue. Also an old pair of Romford wheels have bitten the dust, must have been aluminium (woundered why there was a white froth on top of the liquid). Still it was in the garage and no one gassed of blown up.

 

Will build the 2 GWR ones in original form and will remove the end brake gear. Might even P4 them as I have some EM Gauge Soc etched W irons. The southern may stay 00

 

Thanks for all the info

[Penlan]

...... All this and much, much more in the book "All about Iron Minks" by John Lewis & Others. ..........

The others were the late Mike Morton-Lloyd (a founder member of the Welsh Railways Research Circle), R.C.Metcalf and the late N.R (Roy) Miller who was one of the most enthusiastic members of the much missed 'EMGS West Midlands Area Group' who passed away not long after 'all about GWR Iron Minks' was published by the HMRS in 1980.

[wagonman]

The others were the late Mike Morton-Lloyd (a founder member of the Welsh Railways Research Circle), R.C.Metcalf and the late N.R (Roy) Miller who was one of the most enthusiastic members of the much missed 'EMGS West Midlands Area Group' who passed away not long after 'all about GWR Iron Minks' was published by the HMRS in 1980.

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I was trying to save space albeit at the expense of three fine scholars and modellers. Indeed I had the privilege to know Roy Miller. I singled out John Lewis because he is the only one of the four still active. Duly reprimanded!

[Penlan]

.... Indeed I had the privilege to know Roy Miller. ......

No reprimand intended, just felt like giving them a mention. I see your in Norfolk (now?).

I knew Roy as part of the old Bearwood Models crowd, especially with Roger Carpenter,

there was a lot of great modelling ideas floating around in the late 70's in Birmingham.

A lot of fun and games.

[wagonman]

No reprimand intended, just felt like giving them a mention. I see your in Norfolk (now?).

I knew Roy as part of the old Bearwood Models crowd, especially with Roger Carpenter,

there was a lot of great modelling ideas floating around in the late 70's in Birmingham.

A lot of fun and games.

 

 

 

In those, pre-escape, days I was still in London and very active in the HMRS and EMGS. I think I first met him at an ExpoEM, back in the Paddington days. That's probably enough boring reminiscence for one day...

[Mikkel]

This is a great thread - thanks for all the info. I plan to build a batch of 4mm Iron Minks in the not too distant future (period 1900s), and intended to use the Ratio kits. But maybe not!

 

Don't forget the Ratio Iron Mink is too high and with other mistakes as well.

I wonder if this is something that is easily corrected, and what might be the "other mistakes"? I could buy the kit and and compare against drawings of course, but it would be nice to save the cost if it is a hopeless case.

 

One last query: I realize that ABS kits are available directly from Adrian Swain's personal address, but he does not have a website and as I am abroad it does make things cheaper/easier if there is an on-line trader that sells his kits also?

[wagonman]

This is a great thread - thanks for all the info. I plan to build a batch of 4mm Iron Minks in the not too distant future (period 1900s), and intended to use the Ratio kits. But maybe not!

 

 

I wonder if this is something that is easily corrected, and what might be the "other mistakes"? I could buy the kit and and compare against drawings of course, but it would be nice to save the cost if it is a hopeless case.

 

One last query: I realize that ABS kits are available directly from Adrian Swain's personal address, but he does not have a website and as I am abroad it does make things cheaper/easier if there is an on-line trader that sells his kits also?

 

 

Hi Mikkel

 

The Ratio kit is both too high and too narrow (I think the length is about right!) so correcting it is likely to be a real pain in the backside. Someone on here was going to produce an etched kit – the first test etches looked very good – but I've not heard from him since. Was it 'Jack Black'? Failing that the ABS kit really is the only answer for an accurate 4mm scale model. I'm afraid Adrian is very much a person of the 20th century (and probably early 20th C at that) as not only does he not have a website, I don't think he takes credit cards either. Now that his association with Kay Butler is over a phone call is probably the only answer.

 

I hope I'm wrong on that point. Good luck.

[Mikkel]

Thanks very much Richard. That does sound as if the Ratio kit is best left on the shelf. I had better go with the ABS kit then. A pity I didn't act sooner when ABS was on the Keykits site, but I'll give Adrian a call.

 

Odd that there isn't an etched kit, but I suppose the Ratio kit is the reason for that.

[The Nth Degree]

I'm raising this topic from the depths as I have just bought a couple of these. I don't want to start a new thread as this has some very handy information in it which will help with the build.

 

However, I can't seem to find out what was carried in them. I know some were used for gunpowder and explosives but what was generally carried in them? It seems like an expensive way to carry general goods, unless iron was cheaper than wood when these were built?

 

Thanks,

Steve

[Fat Controller]

I'm raising this topic from the depths as I have just bought a couple of these. I don't want to start a new thread as this has some very handy information in it which will help with the build.

 

However, I can't seem to find out what was carried in them. I know some were used for gunpowder and explosives but what was generally carried in them? It seems like an expensive way to carry general goods, unless iron was cheaper than wood when these were built?

 

Thanks,

Steve

They were intended for general goods; being a bit more weathertight than the planked wagons of the time, they would have been preferred for loads such as bagged cement and flour. I have seen some models liveried for cement companies, but am unsure how prototypical these are.

I don't think it was a case of the first cost of iron being less than that of wood, more that repair and maintenance costs were lower.