Fastest Deltics

[roythebus]

The question was asked in an issue of the Railway Magazine a year or two ago as to what were the fastest recorded speeds of Deltics in their later years on the ECML.

 

I sent my account of a run made on the Thursday before Easter 1978 of the 1700 Leeds-London, on which I was the secondman, but I don't know if the item was ever published.

 

In those days, we were given a train running sheet with the relevant timings on it; in conjunction with the weekly notices, which advised us of temporary speed restrictions. It was the week when a lot of the temporary speed restrictions had been lifted following the easing of curves for HST running, but we were still allowed 17 minute recovery time on an overall time of 2hr 35min, stopping at Wakefield and Doncaster. My regular driver was known as Brusher; he may still be around so I won't name him here!

 

Anyway, we used to take it in turns to drive, it was a common thing to allow the secondman experience in driving under supervision. Brusher was a bit on the quick side, and always needed to get done in time to get a pint at Hatfield club.

 

ISTR on that duty we worked something like the 1220 KX to Leeds, with nearly 2 hours in Leeds.

 

The empty stock arrived, a Deltic with 8 Mk2, air braked,eth fitted. A school teacher came up to the loco and said he would be timing the run along with his gropu of pupils. Well, we tried to give a good run, but were thwarted by 2 signal failures at Wakefield which meant a 17 minute late arrival in Doncaster. I can't remember the loco number, but it had a long name and twin windscreen wipers which, as we left Leeds, decided to get entangled and stopped working, my luck as it had started raining! Rather than cause a delay, we carried on and the rain soon stopped.

 

So, 17 late Doncaster. The loco was a bit sluggish pulling away, but seemed to have plenty of top speed, so we decided to go for it. At Bawtry, there was an 80 on the curves, just lifted to 90. Power was applied well before the end of the curve so that the loco was accelerating by the end of the restriction. the loco was a good one, doing well over the 100. We went through Grantham at 105, and Stoke tunnel at 100! Through Essendine the speedo needle was off the clock, and we went through Peterborough at over 110. There was a timing section there, so we eased off a bit! As I was driving, Brusher would occasionally stand in the middle of the loco to try and see the speedo, which was by my left knee and ask "'ow fast we going son?" "Hundred" I'd say!! And he'd sit back down again with a grin on his face.

 

The speed rarely dropped below 110 to beyond Potters Bar and we had a clear road all the way into Kings Cross. We arrived at the Cross at 19:34 one minute early.

 

The teacher came up and said what a good run it was, did we know how fast we'd come down Essendine? "hundred" says Brusher, "it says so up there". "128.8" replied the school teacher, "the best run we've ever timed on the East Coast"...We gave him the train running sheet with the loco details on as a souvenir. I never kept a notebook in those days, so can't remember what loco it was!

 

A couple of weeks later, a fellow member of the MRC, who worked in GN Control mentioned these mad b'stards on the 1700 from Leeds and wondered who they were. I just smiled.

 

I've tried to find out who that teacher was, and if his log is with the railway timing society, but never had any luck.

 

That was probably the most memorable run I've ever had.

 

We'd heard that some of the Deltics had their motor bands strengthened as the fitters knew we'd be thrashing them to death in their last few years. with the way that loco performed, I suspect they'd tampered with the field diverts too. I seem to remember the passengers may have had a chilly trip on that day as Brusher tripped out the ETH to give us a few more HP!

[Andy M]

Although I can't quote specific speeds, your post reminded me of one of my seminal rail travel moments that occured in the summer of 1979.

 

It was at the end of a week long Scottish Railrover and my father and I were heading back to England on board an Edinburgh-King's Cross train. Due to the Penmanshiel Tunnel collapse in March 1979 all trains were being diverted via Carstairs and the WCML then back to Newcastle from Carlisle. The loco in question was 55 007 PINZA and it was without doubt the most breathtaking run I ever had behind a Deltic. We went down Beattock like the clappers, me with my head out of the window fighting for breath and with tears streaming from my eyes, to the relentless Napier hum from the front of the train. I also particularly remember passing Pilmoor and thundering through Northallerton at a hell of a rate. On leaving the train at Doncaster we managed a quick word with the crew and the driver explained the tight timings due to the diversion and the need to not hang around. With a knowing wink he sounded that flat Deltic horn, said he was glad we enjoyed the ride, and pulled away to continue his mission south.

 

Ah, happy days.

 

Andy.

[slilley]

Try the Railway Performance Society website. They have thousands of Deltic timings in their archive. Bound to find something of interest in there.

 

Regards

 

Simon

[roythebus]

Yeh, tried that one, couldn't seem to get logged on, you need to be a member.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Lovely story; very well written.

 

Regards,

Peter

[t-b-g]

My brother started as a "second man" at Doncaster in the last days of the Deltics. He told me that the speedo went up to 125mph and that he had been down Stoke Bank with the needle hard against the top end of the dial. Some folk cast doubt on his story saying that the traction motors would have disintegrated at that speed but I believe him and your story backs him up very nicely.

 

Racing machines indeed!

[Peter Kazmierczak]

My brother started as a "second man" at Doncaster in the last days of the Deltics. He told me that the speedo went up to 125mph and that he had been down Stoke Bank with the needle hard against the top end of the dial. Some folk cast doubt on his story saying that the traction motors would have disintegrated at that speed but I believe him and your story backs him up very nicely.

 

Racing machines indeed!

 

I think it read up to 120mph.

 

Regards,

Peter

[t-b-g]

I think it read up to 120mph.

 

Regards,

Peter

 

Apologies! It was a long time ago and my memory ain't what it used to be!

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Apologies! It was a long time ago and my memory ain't what it used to be!

 

No need to apologise!

 

There was a little more travel on the dial beyond 120mph, but it wasn't calibrated.

 

Regards,

Peter

[bertiedog]

I was on a very fast Deltic run from York to Kings Cross, delayed due to a failed train ahead, I think it was 1972 and the Deltic was thrashed to catch up, and it timed by mileage and clock at 119 Average! I have notes somewhere as to the date etc, it was the MRC show at York that day, the failure ahead delayed the train two hours. We spoke to the Driver at Kings Cross and he said it topped the speedometer on a couple of stretches. I cannot remember the locos name offhand, it must be in the notes.

Stephen..

[37114]

My uncle worked for BR and spent some time on the Deltics and also recounted to me a tale of riding in the cab of a Deltic with the needle firmly on the end stop.

 

 

[roythebus]

I got onto the RPS website yesterday, but their records only seem to go back to about 1988. The link to their historic records no longer works.

 

The Deltic speedo ISTR went to 120, plus a bit more before the stop! According to the RPS data available, there is 1 timing of 120m55sec from Leeds to London if I'm reading it correctly, and that was with electric traction. The pass times shown seem to tally with my Deltic run.

 

One thing my driver said to the teacher about our run when we got to KX was "don't publish that for a long time"!

[brushman47544]

This certainly sounds a bit like a school trip I was on, but I'm not sure whether the date and details are the same... The Thursday before Easter I would have thought my school (and most others) would already have broken up. But perhaps not with an early-ish Easter - in 1978, the Thursday before Easter was 23 March.

 

When I was at school the railway society organised a (long) day out rail trip towards the end of each term led by a teacher whose primary interest was timing the runs. I remember most and still have my notebooks somewhere, with haulage and timings recorded. A favourite was Guildford - Euston - Carlisle or Glasgow - Edinburgh or Leeds - Kings Cross - Guildford, but on one trip (1975 I think) I got my first Western haulage (D1051 Paignton - Exeter St Davids), on another an out and back run Reading - WSM on the prototype HST and the first trip that I recorded in detail including the 15.00 Edinburgh to KX behind 47544 (hence my username). The next time we did that circuit the 15.00 produced an ex-works 55012.

 

But back to the specifics, I remember one trip including a fast run behind 55004 (so long-ish nameplate and twin wipers) on 1A31 17.30 Leeds - Kings Cross (with air-con MK2s) and also involved an 87 Euston to Carlisle, then 47530 Carlisle to Leeds (with a brief stop for the crew to clear away a snowdrift so we arrived just in time for the 17.30). I originally recall it as pre-Easter 1976, but on reflection it may well have been 1978 because it was the second time we did the same trip with the first being in 1976, on which I recall having 40070 on the S&C for a Class 47 to KX. If 1977 it could only have been 12 December according to the Deltic workings on the Chronicles of Napier website, but 1976 and 1978 are both possible as no workings are shown on the relevant dates.

 

I remember cabbing the loco with friends on arrival at the Cross and then when walking off the platform being approached by the young driver or secondman and being given the train running sheet you refer to (with the TSRs stapled on). It was a fast run with sustained speeds over 110mph, but I seem to recall the top speed was only around 116 (I don't remember anything like 128 as on your run) and an early arrival at the Cross. But I may be mistaken. I still have the log and train running sheet stored away somewhere.

 

One thing my driver said to the teacher about our run when we got to KX was "don't publish that for a long time"!

Funnily enough that comment rings a bell... If only I had access to the stuff I have stored...

[Bruce Depot]

Slightly off topic, but when I worked at Saltley PSB and the hot box detector just North of Tamworth still printed the reports out for each train

you could often see some interesting speeds printed, 90mph line but 112 I can certainly remember once with a HST....

There were others.....

 

Great thread and interesting op post

 

Keith

[brushman47544]

I can't believe it! I think it WAS us.

 

I've just got home and looked at my haulage record book - it's all I have here in Portugal.

 

On 20th (not 23rd) March 1978 I was on a school trip that included a run behind 55004 on the 17.30 (not 17.00) Leeds - Kings Cross. The other haulage was also a bit mixed up - we arrived at Leeds from Carlisle behind 40070 not 47530 - that was a later trip on 27/2/79.

 

Unfortunately as I said before, the details of our speed log and the train running sheet, which was given to me, are in store in the UK and I have no trips home planned this side of autumn. So I can't confirm the maximum speed we recorded, although it was high. If I remember when the time comes and can find them, I'll post details.

 

If it was you, thanks for a great run - and the timing sheet.

[deltic17]

As a Deltic fan from the late 1970's through to their final runs in service I recall from reading a number of timing articles in magazines such as Railway Magazine & Deltic Deadline + a number of others - I seem to recall the top speed regularly being shown as 113mph or 114mph with say 8 coaches. I do not remember anything higher. Superb machines - I saw Deltic19 on the Wensleydale recently (first time I'd cabbed a Deltic since 1981) and the memories came flooding back. I also visited Swanage to see Deltic 9 recently. My 10 year old son couldn't believe the noise when 19 started up at Leeming Bar (& that was only on 1 engine!).

[bertiedog]

I was on a very fast Deltic run from York to Kings Cross, delayed due to a failed train ahead, I think it was 1972 and the Deltic was thrashed to catch up, and it timed by mileage and clock at 119 Average! I have notes somewhere as to the date etc, it was the MRC show at York that day, the failure ahead delayed the train two hours. We spoke to the Driver at Kings Cross and he said it topped the speedometer on a couple of stretches. I cannot remember the locos name offhand, it must be in the notes.

Stephen..

 

Further to the post, it was D9011 55011 The Royal Northumberland Fusiliers on the York run, with a full train. meant to start at 6pm , but was delayed, started and then was halted on the route, before opening up and making the remainder at a fast pace. It arrived in KX stinking of burnt oil. The Driver looked pleased, and we chatted for a while, as he said he rarely had a chance to let it rip, in his words. The speedo had topped out, and average I noted as 119, with higher bursts estimated at over 125.

 

 

 

Stephen.

[ste234]

Wow, I wish I was alive to see the Deltics on the ECML in their prime, unfortunately I've grown up with HST's and 225's and they just aren't the same as a Deltic tearing past and the ground shifting

[roythebus]

Nice to know someone appreciated the effort Brushman! I was certain we worked the 1700 ex Leeds, but it was a long time ago. Whilst I remember quite clearly some of the speeds we got, the actual times faded away! Like the train running sheet.

 

Weather was drizzly at Leeds, hence the use of the wipers which promptly fell of and got entangled! Luckily the rain eased off soon after.

 

I'd be interested to see that train running sheet when you find it.

 

I KNOW the speedo was off the clock on Essendine, and the teacher told us of his timed top speed. I remember Stoke tunnel at just over the ton...previously unheard of.

[t-b-g]

Not directly related to high speeds with Deltics but the other story involving my brother relates to a down train that left London and came by us (Bawtry) around 2.00am. My brother was going to be on it one night and told me to set my alarm to coincide with a stop at Retford, about 9 miles away. It was a still night and I could clearly hear the Deltic start up from Retford and I recall that I could hear it for a full 20 minutes, which would probably be all the way to Doncaster.

 

I still live beside the main line now but these days I rarely even look up to see what is going by but I didn't ever ignore a Deltic. Standing at the South end of Platform 1 at Doncaster as one got a southbound train under way was a wonderful place to be!

 

My interest in real railways ended the day the last one was withdrawn and nothing on the modern railway has really stirred my blood since (apart from steam specials and hearing a Deltic go by a few weeks ago).

[31A Driver]

Ah, the days before OTMR.

 

I won't say how hard I useed to thrash down the bank from Potters Bar. Not on Deltics mind.

[roythebus]

Going back again on my fading memory, ISTR the running time of that Leeds train was 2hr 34. With 17 minutes recovery, and 17 minutes late ex Doncaster, we were about 1 min early at Kings Cross, making a net time of 1hr 59.

 

Hopefully when Brushman gets back to England later this year, he can find the log of the run.

 

As a complete contrast, the same train, later that year before the august bank holiday was a class 40 with 10 vac braked Mk1's, and a totally tedious run, with the 40 barely getting over 80!

[brushman47544]

Going back again on my fading memory, ISTR the running time of that Leeds train was 2hr 34. With 17 minutes recovery, and 17 minutes late ex Doncaster, we were about 1 min early at Kings Cross, making a net time of 1hr 59.

 

Hopefully when Brushman gets back to England later this year, he can find the log of the run.

 

As a complete contrast, the same train, later that year before the august bank holiday was a class 40 with 10 vac braked Mk1's, and a totally tedious run, with the 40 barely getting over 80!

I'll certainly look for the log and train running sheet when I get the chance.

 

The date and departure time of the train I travelled on are correct as the entries in my haulage book are pretty contemporary and the train departure time agrees with the Chronicles of Napier website, which has a timetable listing for likely Deltic workings WTT 1977-78 that includes 1A31 16:52 H'gate - KX (17:30 ex Leeds).

 

I can't remember who did what timings (the teacher, one of my friends and/or me). The full log would have been recorded by mile using the mileposts plus the stations, but the maximum speed, whatever it was, was timed over a ¼ mile IIRC.

 

The Master that accompanied us on many of our school railway trips, I presume including this one, sadly died in 1997: Obituary.

[Pennine MC]

It was a still night and I could clearly hear the Deltic start up from Retford and I recall that I could hear it for a full 20 minutes, which would probably be all the way to Doncaster.

 

The sound was indeed something else, and I do feel a tad sorry for ste234 and anyone else who'll never experience one in normal service. My parent's house was a few hundred yards from the line into Hull Paragon - not visible but certainly audible, and around the turn of the '80s, I often heard the 'last London' droning in as I hit the pillow after a few pints. Most of my early sightings of them in 1968 were at full chat at Balderton near Newark, where the A1 crosses the ECML and a short distance from my Mum's aunt's house, and that too left a lasting impression.

[roythebus]

Brushman, just to re-open an old thread, did you have time to find out that old timing log from years ago?