Xerces Fobe2 Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Slightly off topic If I recall correctly at least one Deltic was borrowed by the Western Region in the 1970's for high speed testing in relation to the introduction of HST's and how they would behave at speed where there was a dipped rail joint. I think the Deltic(s) were given dispensation to run at least at@ 110mph; the testing was carried out around the Didcot area at weekends. I note sure if there are any records of the testing that detail the maximum speed that a Deltic(s) achieved. XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 This thread is fantastic, reminds me how awesome these machines were on my forays to lineside at places like Pilmoor in summer '80 (I remember the holiday cottage in Coxwold, the beautiful long hike through the fields to reach the line - and Sheena Easton in leather trews on the cover of the Sunday Times magazine is indelibly burned onto my retinas!). I'd love to hear any Deltic anecdotes relating to their use on the Waverley Route, which was a far more frequent occurrence than people credit; both on diversions via Hexham or Tweedmouth, and on scheduled Class 2 and even mixed services between Edinburgh/ Millerhill and Hawick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted October 26, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 26, 2011 Brushman, just to re-open an old thread, did you have time to find out that old timing log from years ago? I've haven't been back to the UK again yet, so no. But I haven't forgotten - I want to know as much as you do. I was planning to go this week - school half term - to see the family but that's been cancelled for various reasons. At present I have nothing planned, so it may be next year now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted October 26, 2011 Author Share Posted October 26, 2011 The suspense is killing... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vac_basher Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Quality stuff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trog Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 On the subject of Deltic testing I seem to remember being told of some tests carried out at Cheddington with an instrumented simulated wet bed / dipped joint. A Deltic was run over it at speed as those on high had decided that nothing harder on the track than a Deltic was to be allowed, and wanted to know the figures for this limit. While they had the gear on a service train came through behind a class 86 electric and recorded figures 50% higher than the Deltic. Re-think required. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted October 30, 2011 Author Share Posted October 30, 2011 The AL1-AL6s were very heavy with their unsprung weight despite having resilient wheels. It was impossible for the driver to fill his tea can on those things, and almost impossible to drink tea at all whilst on the move. By contrast, the Deltics gave a much smoother ride at all speeds. I speak from experience, having worked on the WCML and ECML.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon020 Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Only just found this thread... and how very interesting and amusing it is... ok.., so now we're all waiting on the results of Brushman's search. Should be interesting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted January 24, 2012 Author Share Posted January 24, 2012 Maybe we should have a whip-round for his fare back to the UK to end this waiting game.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted January 25, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 25, 2012 Maybe we should have a whip-round for his fare back to the UK to end this waiting game.... I know, I know....................... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 A quick technical question - I remember reading that the 50s were prone to traction motor flashovers if pushed too hard, although capable of more than 110mph according to one RMweb WR driver and renowned 7mm modeller. Both the 50s and the Deltics had EE538 traction motors, so I'm wondering whether the 120mph speeds quoted in this thread caused similar flashover problems for the Deltics, or whether there was something about their design and/or maintenance that made them less prone to electrical problems. I've read all sorts of tales about the power units putting legs out of bed in spectacular fashion, but very little about the motors giving out under the strain of three figure speeds sustained up and down the ECML day in and day out. Any thoughts? David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted January 25, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 25, 2012 A quick technical question - I remember reading that the 50s were prone to traction motor flashovers if pushed too hard, although capable of more than 110mph according to one RMweb WR driver and renowned 7mm modeller. Both the 50s and the Deltics had EE538 traction motors, so I'm wondering whether the 120mph speeds quoted in this thread caused similar flashover problems for the Deltics, or whether there was something about their design and/or maintenance that made them less prone to electrical problems. I've read all sorts of tales about the power units putting legs out of bed in spectacular fashion, but very little about the motors giving out under the strain of three figure speeds sustained up and down the ECML day in and day out. Any thoughts? David I was told by somebody who worked with the Deltics in their later years that some of the class had their traction motors "beefed up" to prolong their life. Apparently some of the drivers worked out that the modified motors would not just last longer but would perform better at top end speeds and so some of the highest speeds they achieved were right at the end of the Deltic's lifespan.. According to him, the original motors could get problems at very high speeds with windings coming apart but the modified ones stood up to such speeds much better. I seem to recall being told that the windings were coated with some form of resin based substance, which made them almost bulletproof but it was a long time ago and my memory is a little hazy on the detail. No doubt somebody on here will either tell us that I had been fed a load of bunkum or will verify the story. I am prepared for either! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Cheese Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 There are also tales of "magic buttons" and uprated chargers on the Deltics, though they seem little more than spotters myths as far as published evidence goes. Regarding the comparison with motor failures on the 50's/Deltics, I'd imagine a lot more Deltic TM's would have gone pop had the locos been based at Laira or Bristol Bath Road as the 50's were...at least Old Oak Common made an effort to do things properly though! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted February 20, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 20, 2012 Well, some good news for all of you that have been waiting with baited breath, here they are... Firstly, the printed train running schedule, which confirms the date as 20 March 1978 and the train as 1A31 16.52 Harrogate to Kings Cross, Load 8 Mk2 air/con. Not sure if the stains are tea or coffee... Next are two pages with the journey speed log. It confirms the loco as 55004 Queen's Own Highlander, an on time departure from Leeds at 17.30, an 11 minute late departure from Doncaster and an on time arrival at the Cross. Highest speed recorded over a quarter mile was 114/115 mph between mileposts 97 and 94 (no idea exactly where that is) but the highest speed recorded over a full mile was after Welwyn GC (around mp 18) at 112.5. More generally a lot of sustained running at over 110 mph but we at least didn't record higher speeds, although I presume they were possible over short distances. Sorry I can't confirm 126 mph, but an excellent run nevertheless. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 At last the wait was worth it!! ISTR the teacher telling us the maximum speed was something spectacular, maybe it was 116.something down Stoke Bank. I remember my driver saying to him the maximum's 100 mate, it says so up there, pointing to the max speed in the cab. I was actually driving on the return, Ron Warren having driven the down journey with something like the 11.20 ex KX. So, with 15 minutes recovery time, and 11 minutes late at Donny, plus the lifting of some of the TSRs that week, it made for quite a quick journey! Even so, from memory we needed the recovery time for the remaining TSRs. What was exciting looking at the log was the 101 through Grantham slowing to only 96 through Stoke Tunnel! that loco was slow on the getaway but had a high top speed. Maybe the field diverts had been adjusted? It's tea stains on the running card, neither me or Ron were coffee drinkers. Thanks to Brushman for that bit of history. To answer a couple of other points, there was no magic button that i know of, but,as may have been said in earlier posts, we were told "on the quiet" that the Deltics had their motor windings strengthened because "they" knew we would be thrashing the guts out of them in their last few years, much like the SR men on the Bullied pacifics did in their last days. As for the 50's, I only ever had a couple of secondman trips on them from Waterloo and wasn't impressed by them at all. Does anyone know if Ron Warren is still around? He'll be well in his 80's by now and used to live at Welham Green near Hatfield. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 From Brushman's log it seems a net journey time of 154 minutes, not bad for 189 miles, and Donny-KX 107 minutes for 155 miles! What was the timing for the HST's when they were introduced and how does that compare to today's high speed offerings? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vac_basher Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Really interesting. Thanks for sharing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffsOatcake Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Was the original Deltic design speed a 105 mph?, So 110 would be no problem for a production deltic Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 Quite likely. The prototype also seems to have smaller wheels according to Bachmann. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted May 17, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 17, 2012 50 performance I have had a few good runs, but one in particular, mix of early mk2 stock (lost the paper I noted it on) and 50,017, 1982 or 83 I think, very quick getaway and better high speed performance than normal from a 50. Nearly fell over leaving Cheltenham while sorting my bike in the BG. BTW out of all the trips only fell over once and broke the switchgear - made new insides out of fibreglass resin! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 There are a lot of things that contributed to Deltics High speed capabilities, yes they did have a maximium design speed of 105mph, they also had an additional stage of field diversion, meaning that unlike most diesels full power was available right up to their maximum speed. They did get special attention to the motors, modifications included vacuum impregnation of the varnish on the armatures, and a few other tweeks to the fields/brushgear (brush bounce when hitting a crossing/bad joint at high speed was thought to cause a few flashovers) but more to help reduce flashovers as they too were very prone - but this tended to be in the 70 - 80 mph speed range before the final field divert kicked in, where presumably the motors were running at their highest voltage. The other contributary factor was that the power units were significantly down rated to produce the 1650bhp each. Ever wonder why you never see a trace of black smoke like other diesels (at least under normal operating conditions) but only a blue haze when under full power? it is because the units are not running any where near their maximum. All that was required was for the maximum fuel stops to go out of adjustment and you could get a lot more power, and this was not uncommon! Apparantly at one time due to an error Napiers were supplying overhauled engines adjusted to 1800bhp to BR, which lead to some spirited performances! This happened in preservation too, 55019 had a reputation for being a bit quick and got the nickname 'rocket ship'. It was only after the DPS aquired a load bank so they could correctly set up the power units that they found out that one of the power units was putting out nearly 2000bhp!! It was of course in the interests of engine life adjusted back to the correct 1650 bhp, and 55019's performance was more 'normal' for a deltic... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted May 17, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 17, 2012 I knew about the over 3000bhp 50s (trials related to possibly uprating to type 5 - but not sure), but 3600bhp Deltics - wow Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesysmith Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 REmember, the deltic engines was very derated for BR. Half the deltic engine, derated for BR was 1100HP in the baby deltics. The version used in the navy`s boat had a supercharged, turbocharged, intercooled version rated at 3700HP! I think that the DPS has one at barrow hill. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon020 Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 The thing is that power doesn't necessarily mean speed (the subject here), although............ Looking at Ian strange's Deltic Demythology book, the CT18-42K had a max power of 3700 shp at 2100rpm and continuous 2750 shp at 1800 rpm, later uprated to 4000 shp max and 3000 shp continuous....It looks like these were for Indian defence and customs boats (not sure how many per boat). The Super Deltic (Class 50 based body shell) was intended (supposedly) to use two T18-27Cs of 2200 bhp at 1650 rpm (max) 200bhp at 1600 rpm (cont). Unfortunately their weight would have prohibited 125mph running (apparently)... so the project (with Kestrel) was shelved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted May 18, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 18, 2012 8000bhp Deltic - now that would have been worth seeing - I know it would have had cooling issues! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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