Earlestown Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Please could any of you very knowledgeable gentlepeople give me a starting point to carriage formation. I did a lot of spotting and travelling in the mid 70' to mid 80' (so BR blue it is, with a great range of preserved stock ) I started collecting locos a while back but am bewildered when it comes to rolling stock. when it comes to formations I never paid attention (sorry). I have picked up on what TSO, FO, ( trailer second open / First open ) .. I can find out the XXX / XX etc .. but what would typical train rakes consist of?. I understand there could be many possibilities but any "typical" formations for MK1 , MK2 and MK3 for IC125 ) would be brilliant. Any info would be very welcome. Sincere Regards. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomag Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 An idea of general location would be helpful, East Coast, West Coast, Midland, Scotland, some odd bits out west? Other wise it could be a very long list. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMJ Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Might be an idea to join RobertC's BR coaching Yahoo group and post your question on there with region and or train service as he has access to various CWD's. As for HST's from memory WR (& XC) were 7 coaches + 2 power cars ER were 8+2. On ER these tended to be 2 FO's (south end) TRUK (or similar) and then 5 SO's. Later some SO's had a guards section added as they thought that the power car was noisy. IIRRC the WR had 1 less SO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB-AU Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 This post has a good summary of HST and Virgin WC Mk III formations. http://ftp.uktrainsi...p?f=143&t=93869 Grand Central HSTs are TF-TF-TRSB-TS-TS-TS formed by former loco-hauled Mk 3a stock. At least one was still running as an FO for a short time. Cheers David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earlestown Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 Thanks for your replies. .. Bomag, AMJ and DavidB-AU. I will indeed look into this. Honestly I have a lot to learn about carriage formations and that is staring here. I'm not good at conveying thought to written word .. I know this a prototype forum and maybe seems like I was asking an un-prototypical question. Many thanks for the info and links. Regards. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I hate generalising but purely to help you out Earlestown here goes: Express trains of loco hauled stock to London (from Glasgow, Birmingham, South Wales, Bristol, the South West, Edinburgh and Newcastle) tended to be formed First Class, Buffet, Second Class. Brake vehicles could be at either end of the train or both ends. Normally up to three First Class vehicles, five or six Second Class. Cross country trains of loco hauled stock (Newcastle to Bristol or Cardiff, Manchester to Plymouth or Cardiff, Edinburgh to Plymouth) tended to be formed Second Class, Buffet, First Class, Second Class. Brake vehicles could be either end or sometimes Brake Second vehicles were placed the other side of the Buffet from First Class. There were normally only two First Class coaches at the most, quite frequently only one. Eastern Region HSTs were formed with eight coaches. Always two First Class then either one Restaurant Car and five Second Class or a Buffet Car and a Kitchen Car and four Second Class. From 1980 the Second Class vehicle by the Power Car had a Guard's section. Western Region HSTs started as seven coaches long but some were extended to eight from about 1985. Either two First Class, Buffet, four Second Class or two First Class, Restaurant Car, four Second Class or from 1985 two First Class, Restaurant Car, five Second Class. Again from 1980 the Second Class vehicle by the Power Car had a Guard's section. Before 1978 some Western Region sets were two First Class, a Buffet Car and a Kitchen Car and three Second Class. Cross country HST sets were always one First Class, a Buffet Car and five Second Class (seven coaches). Midland Mainline loco hauled sets were formed from the mid 1970s as First Class, Buffet, Brake First or Brake Second, Second Class being about nine coaches long. When they went to HST sets they were two First Class, one Restaurant Car and five Second Class. Like I say this information is very generalised. The Yahoo coaching stock group has information on specific rake consists by year and by Region. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earlestown Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 Hi Flood .. I understand .. But I do appreciate your post. I am a complete noob when it comes to train formation. Thanks guys .. I have a good starting point now. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I am a complete noob when it comes to train formation. Thanks guys .. I have a good starting point now. At the most very, very basic level, you need a place for the guard and a place for first class passengers (very few loco hauled services were second class only in your period). So that dictates at least one brake and at least part of a coach 1st class - so even with a two-coach train, there are options - BSK + CK, or BFK or BCK + TSO or SK. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earlestown Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 Cheers gentlemen .. I got a good starting point to research now. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed a/c Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Where the TGS MK3s ever loco hauled ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 The TGS were HST stock so locos could not power the aircon, so they would only be loco hauled in transit moves or occasionally in passenger service when no power cars were available. In these cases they would have had a generator/translator van each end. A couple of Mk3b brake first coaches were built, which looked a bit like the TGS but were loco hauled. These were the only loco-hauled Mk3s with guards accommodation, so West Coast Mk3 formations normally included a Mk1 gangwayed brake until the Driving Van Trailers appeared. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed a/c Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Thank you for the information. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted June 20, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 20, 2012 OP states he was first interested in the period mid 70s to mid 80s. This short timespan accounts for a time of great change on the railways. The BR era of creaking rakes of Mk1 stock (sometimes very long rakes up to 16 coaches) was ushered out in favour of shorter and often more frequent trains of newer stock and of multiple units replacing hauled trains. The links above are great starting points. However as OP recognises the variety is almost infinite and very much with no hard-and-fast rules which applied system-wide. Trains were formed up according to expected need. Some had more than one portion and divided / combined en route. A few still had two catering vehicles while many on even quite long cross-countrey runs had none. Passengers and newspapers were conveyed on the same trains including some with 4-wheel vans for the latter. The entire area is a fascinating study in what is now history. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomag Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 The TGS were HST stock so locos could not power the aircon, so they would only be loco hauled in transit moves or occasionally in passenger service when no power cars were available.  In these cases they would have had a generator/translator van each end. Several TGS were fitted with buffers and drop head buckeye couplings to work with Cl 91 and 89 as the locos were delivered well in advance of the Mk4s. They were used on Leeds to KX trains in 1989 and with a Cl91 on one end and a HST PC on the other it had over 8000hp leading to in service transit times minutes quicker than what is achieved now e.g. KX to Grantham start to stop at an average of 110mph.There was a report of a Cl90 also being used, but that may have been during testing on WCML Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed a/c Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Several TGS were fitted with buffers and drop head buckeye couplings to work with Cl 91 and 89 as the locos were delivered well in advance of the Mk4s. They were used on Leeds to KX trains in 1989 and with a Cl91 on one end and a HST PC on the other it had over 8000hp leading to in service transit times minutes quicker than what is achieved now e.g. KX to Grantham start to stop at an average of 110mph.There was a report of a Cl90 also being used, but that may have been during testing on WCML Hmmm sounds interesting, As I am modeling this time frame and area (Yorkshire) I could well add this to my layout. So the MK3 & MK4 were mixed and then add a 91 and a HST at t'other end. Sounds good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomag Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Hmmm sounds interesting, So the MK3 & MK4 were mixed and then add a 91 and a HST at t'other end. Sounds good. The only train with mixed Mk3/Mk4 coaches was the test trains (12201 with 2*TGS and a test coach Grantham Feb 1989)The service trains were a normal HST rake but with the power car and TGs fitted with buffers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted June 21, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 21, 2012 The buffer-fitted "DVT surrogate" HST power cars could be found in a standard set as could the TGS coahces so fitted. They were used at times however with class 91 traction and the HST unit on tickover only (to maintain the hotel supply to the train which a 91 could not do with Mk3 stock) but as this was found to do more harm than good to the power cars they were then allowed to power up giving the extraordinary 8000 or so h.p. when working with a 91 and some very fast runs indeed. The unique class 89 could also be used insterad of a 91. Once the Mk4 stock entered squadron service the HST surrogates returned to their normal rosters and formations where some remain (now as 2+9 on the ECML) to this day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomag Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 One further oddity with the Cl91+HST was that Bradford trains could be hauled by the HST power car to Foster Square but that the Cl91 could not apparently control the HST if it was not 'pluged in' and required a 47 to drag it back to Leeds. It also led to problems recovering nortbound failures on the ECML (of which there where quite a few). It got to the point that there was a set of Mk2a coaches in use on Sundays to release locos for preventative maintenance. I only managed to have one trip on this set; the 47 was flogged and we were doing just over 100mph down Stoke Bank Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed a/c Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Thanks guys, has there been a Class 89 made as a RTR (OO)? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 these topics may be of help? http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/52794-1980s-west-country-train-formations/page__fromsearch__1 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/47422-br-coaching-region-prefixes-did-they-wander-from-region-to-region/page__fromsearch__1 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/53925-nse-coaches-in-br-blue-grey/page__fromsearch__1 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/46623-mix-and-match-mk2-air-conditioned/page__fromsearch__1 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/49528-mk2-coaches-numbering-and-working-patterns/page__fromsearch__1 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/47195-mk2-coach-numbers-on-the-western-region-in-the-80s/page__fromsearch__1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Thanks guys, has there been a Class 89 made as a RTR (OO)? No. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed a/c Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Thank you Chard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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