What is scratch building in 2012?

[N15class]

I we were having a bit of a discussion about what is scratch build on another thread, so save taking over that one let us start here.

 

In my veiw scratch building should be you making everting, but we know the parts like wheels and most castings are bought in. Although I have often made masters and cast my own in whitemetal..

 

 

I also do not think that designing a kit on the computer and getting it etch should be classed as kitbuilding. The same with 3D.

 

Cutting patterns or following a drawing on a pantograph is OK, but using a CAD driven one is not as you take away the skilled hands.

 

I hope that this will become interesting. If it is in the wrong place my appologise.

[Karhedron]

Scratch building comes from the phrase "from scratch" which the dictionary defines as "from the beginning, embark on something without any preparation or advantage".

 

This simply means that you start without any prepared components. To me, making something using CAD rather than cutting plasticard is still scratch-building, just different tools and materials. I don't see why something cannot be called scratch-building if you do not cut the pieces by hand. I work in IT and I know CAD requires practise to achieve good results. I do not agree that producing models in this way removes an element of skill. It is just a slightly different skill that is being used.

[N15class]

Scratch building comes from the phrase "from scratch" which the dictionary defines as "from the beginning, embark on something without any preparation or advantage".

 

This simply means that you start without any prepared components. To me, making something using CAD rather than cutting plasticard is still scratch-building, just different tools and materials. I don't see why something cannot be called scratch-building if you do not cut the pieces by hand. I work in IT and I know CAD requires practise to achieve good results. I do not agree that producing models in this way removes an element of skill. It is just a slightly different skill that is being used.

 

But surely that is an IT and design skill, rather than an engineering one. Surely the art of scratch building is the ability to be able cut out and join together parts from a plan. From raw materials not ready cut parts.

 

What you are saying some one can build a kit and say it is scratch built!

[N15class]

By the way I think the ability to use CAD and make etches is a possitively good way to model. But I do not think it should be classes as scratch building.

[Guest Natalie Graham]

I used to do patterns for whitemetal kits, and even did the castings on occasion. The patterns were entirely built from hand-cut pieces of metal soldered together. Now if I built one of those kits to completion would that have been counted as scratch-built or kit-built? If I design a model and have it 3D printed is that scratch-bulilding? How about if I put it on the printer's shop and someone else buys one. It is exactly the same model, can they claim to have scratch-built it?

[jjnewitt]

I'm with Karhedron on this one. I don't see why designing your own etches using CAD can't be termed scratchbuilding. It's just cutting out etal after all just abiet using a different tecnique. Whilst it may not involve the same skills as using a piercing saw it uses different ones. Would it make any difference if you actually etched it yourself at home rather than using a specialist? If you made a pattern for a casting but got someone else to do the actual casting does that detract from what you have created? I've been working for sometime on sprung P4 diesel bogies and for a couple of years I've been making them from scratch, cutting out sideframes from sheet Nickle Silver and putting things together using jigs etc. I'm waiting at the moment for the first of my CAD designs to return from the etchers. I will still have to put them together using the same techniques but I have used a different (and possibly superior) method to previously. I still think it is scratch building as I have done the design work which is still the same skill whatever your cutting method of choice is. I would argue that designing is an engineering skill and not seperate. You can't have good engineering without good design and you can't have good design without good engineering skills.

[halfwit]

...some one can build a kit and say it is scratch built!

 

If you design a kit and have it etched, then it could possibly be called scratchbuilding as the parts have been etched to your design just as if you'd marked out and cut out the metal yourself. All your doing is saving some time cutting out.

But I feel that this only works if its your own design! Using someone elses design isn't scratchbuilding.

 

Perhaps a new term could be used alongside kitbuilding and scratchbuilding to be used for thse builds where a fair number of commercial parts are used. I would suggest 'handbuilt'.

 

3D printing to me isn't scratchbuilding, its manufactoring.

[Guest Natalie Graham]

I'm with Karhedron on this one. I don't see why designing your own etches using CAD can't be termed scratchbuilding.

 

I would say there is a difference between designing and building. Consider your P4 bogie frames. Had you drawn them out using tradtional draughting pens on paper and film and sent those designs to me and I had then cut out the nickel silver components and assembled them using traditional metal-working techniques, following your design, would you still consider you had built those bogies?

 

If you design a kit and have it etched, then it could possibly be called scratchbuilding as the parts have been etched to your design just as if you'd marked out and cut out the metal yourself.

 

But isn't that where the distinction arises? Whether or not you have marked out and cut the metal or paid someone else to do it. Designing and building are not the same thing.

[Karhedron]

What you are saying some one can build a kit and say it is scratch built!

Scratch building (for me at least) is the process of going beyond using what someone else supplies. To me, making something using components you have designed the CADs for definitely counts. If someone else came along and simply used the same CADs to make a copy of the same model then it would not.

 

The difference between CAD and traditional scratchbuilding is that once CADs are complete, the product can be reproduced reliably a number of times. This is why you are calling it a "kit" but I would argue that terminology is wrong. Scratch-building is more than just cutting out pieces and sticking them together. It is the design and thought processes behind creating a new an unique model. I believe those thought process are just as valid in FUD as they are in brass sheet.

[billbedford]

In my veiw scratch building should be you making everting, but we know the parts like wheels and most castings are bought in. Although I have often made masters and cast my own in whitemetal..

I also do not think that designing a kit on the computer and getting it etch should be classed as kitbuilding. The same with 3D.

Cutting patterns or following a drawing on a pantograph is OK, but using a CAD driven one is not as you take away the skilled hands.

 

Why does it matter what techniques people use? Surely it is more important that builders use their best endeavours to produce what they want with what ever skills and materials they have to hand. It seems to me that it is more important that people are satisfied by the process and happy with the result* than that what they do falls in to someone else'e ideas about what they should be doing.

 

*Of course no-one should be totally happy with the results of their labours, otherwise there is no incentive carry on and improve their skills.

[N15class]

Scratch building (for me at least) is the process of going beyond using what someone else supplies. To me, making something using components you have designed the CADs for definitely counts. If someone else came along and simply used the same CADs to make a copy of the same model then it would not.

 

The difference between CAD and traditional scratchbuilding is that once CADs are complete, the product can be reproduced reliably a number of times. This is why you are calling it a "kit" but I would argue that terminology is wrong. Scratch-building is more than just cutting out pieces and sticking them together. It is the design and thought processes behind creating a new an unique model. I believe those thought process are just as valid in FUD as they are in brass sheet.

 

But you are the designer and the assembler. But you have not actualy made anything, just assembled it

[Karhedron]

It seems to me that if we have different definitions in our minds of what "scratch buliding" means then we are not really going to agree about this. As 3D-printing becomes increasingly affordable I think lines are going to blur further. I guess "scratch buliding" will become as contested a term as "modern image".

 

I think billbedford has hit the nail on the head with his argument. What matters is building models to the best of our abilities using whatever materials or techniques get the job done. I would far rather sit down to model than argue semantics.

[halfwit]

I have in front of me a 'scratch aid' etch for a Manning Wardle F class, obtained from a sellor on ebay.

 

'this is not a kit but an etch of the components needed to make the Manninf Wardle No 7 as detailed in MRJ'

'all the items are numbered as per the articles that are in the MRJ this is more of a scratcbuilding aid'

 

No castings or instructions are included.

 

When I build it, is it a scratchbuild or a kitbuild?

[Kenton]

In my mind the definition is very clear.

 

I call myself a kitbuilder and I equate that to buying a jigsaw puzzle and putting all the pieces together. If one or more of the pieces are missing and need to be made it then becomes a scratch aid and is beginning to blur the line into scratch building. A kit I believe should contain everything to build the loco/wagon/coach/building/structure that it has been designed for.

 

Building something or any part out of plasticard/metal is scratch building. However adding detail from a packet eg.grills, different chimney/dome/etc is simply detailing a kit. If you have to design/form/cast the part then that is scratch building.

 

Designing the etches of a kit from scratch (it makes absolutely no difference what tools you use, pen, felt tip or CAD) is scratch building. So by the same reckoning 3D printing is just a change of tool so is also scratch building.

 

So I guess in summary buy something to simply fit together is a kit, everything else is scratch building.

[billbedford]

Wow don't people just love putting themselves in to little boxes............

[N15class]

Why does it matter what techniques people use? Surely it is more important that builders use their best endeavours to produce what they want with what ever skills and materials they have to hand. It seems to me that it is more important that people are satisfied by the process and happy with the result* than that what they do falls in to someone else'e ideas about what they should be doing.

 

*Of course no-one should be totally happy with the results of their labours, otherwise there is no incentive carry on and improve their skills.

 

I agree Bill, I enjoy the way I model but the way it is going it will be called scratch building sticking the vac pipes on a Hornby train

I have in front of me a 'scratch aid' etch for a Manning Wardle F class, obtained from a sellor on ebay.

 

'this is not a kit but an etch of the components needed to make the Manninf Wardle No 7 as detailed in MRJ'

'all the items are numbered as per the articles that are in the MRJ this is more of a scratcbuilding aid'

 

No castings or instructions are included.

 

When I build it, is it a scratchbuild or a kitbuild?

I thought the MRJ project you bought the castings and cut out the rest from sheet.

 

In my mind the definition is very clear.

 

I call myself a kitbuilder and I equate that to buying a jigsaw puzzle and putting all the pieces together. If one or more of the pieces are missing and need to be made it then becomes a scratch aid and is beginning to blur the line into scratch building. A kit I believe should contain everything to build the loco/wagon/coach/building/structure that it has been designed for.

 

Building something or any part out of plasticard/metal is scratch building. However adding detail from a packet eg.grills, different chimney/dome/etc is simply detailing a kit. If you have to design/form/cast the part then that is scratch building.

 

Designing the etches of a kit from scratch (it makes absolutely no difference what tools you use, pen, felt tip or CAD) is scratch building. So by the same reckoning 3D printing is just a change of tool so is also scratch building.

 

So I guess in summary buy something to simply fit together is a kit, everything else is scratch building.

 

To me that is scratch building a part for a kit, not making the kit into a scratch build.

 

Now what is included in a kit is a whole different ball game.

[Guest Natalie Graham]

I have in front of me a 'scratch aid' etch for a Manning Wardle F class, obtained from a sellor on ebay.

 

'this is not a kit but an etch of the components needed to make the Manninf Wardle No 7 as detailed in MRJ'

'all the items are numbered as per the articles that are in the MRJ this is more of a scratcbuilding aid'

 

No castings or instructions are included.

 

When I build it, is it a scratchbuild or a kitbuild?

 

I woiuld call it a kit build as you are assembling parts someone else has made. The term 'scratchbuilding aid' seems to have arisen from producers of etched items who didn't produce all the other bits required for the model to be made which would have been expected in a kit. Compare what you have with the early Jamieson kits, for example. I bet there's a lot more 'building' needs to be done on those old stamped parts than on your Maning Wardle.

 

There was a set of those castngs with the relevant parts of MRJ on ebay a little while ago.

[jjnewitt]

I would say there is a difference between designing and building. Consider your P4 bogie frames. Had you drawn them out using tradtional draughting pens on paper and film and sent those designs to me and I had then cut out the nickel silver components and assembled them using traditional metal-working techniques, following your design, would you still consider you had built those bogies?

 

I would have "built" them in the same way that I would have built a kit. Where I think that the etching process differs is that is not something that can easily done at home (though it can be done), it is a specialised process that I would equate to that of producing wheels. In order to do that you need a lathe and the skills to use that lathe sucessfully. In the first post on this thread it was accepted by the author that you could buy in certain items (like wheels) and call it scratchbuilding. I don't really see why etching isn't any different.

[The Nth Degree]

People who physically cut parts from blank material have to be commended in my eyes - I don't think I could do it yet so, relative to me they are more scratch builders than I.

 

However, to start from scratch - an idea, or photograph, or plan - and then design it in your preferred medium and then set about building it (or assembling it, depending on your terminology) does constitute scratch building as you have started with virtually nothing - 'scratch'.

[billbedford]

I agree Bill, I enjoy the way I model but the way it is going it will be called scratch building sticking the vac pipes on a Hornby train

Why does it matter?, Why is it important to you that modellers who label themselves 'scratch-builders' should set themselves apart from other modellers?

[ArthurK]

I have a foot in both camps on this one. As far as I am concerned it doesn't matter a jot whichever method is used to get the result that you want. I started off in the 1960s with what is being referred to as scratchbuilding. I built many models that way starting from the raw metal but when a kit of a particalur loco appeared then if I wanted it then I bought it. Different method but the same result - a working loco! For rolling stock it was in the main kitbuilt. I have tried my hands at scratchbuilding wagons and carriages but (at that time ) I could not match the detail of the kit product.

As time went by more and more kits became available so it was inevitable that I built more and more of those. Even then some of these offerings left a lot to be desired and I often discarded almost as much if not more than I used. One particular kit comes to miind (I won't name it). I gave up trying to solder the four parts of the boiler together and rolled a new one (scratch?). Then the cab was discarded along with the footplate. So not being at all happy with the chassis that went the same way. The result a complete scratch built loco including the valve gear (outside). I did keep the backhead and smokebox door. The tender wasn't nearly so bad so that does run behind the loco.

Later I became competant in CAD (my job with BAe was in CAD/CAM). Inevitably when I retired I turned to CAD as a means of fulfilling my objectives, namely to produce accurate models of prototypes that I had known and loved. What better way to cut out accurate parts than CAD followed by photo etching. If I've done my design right then the parts will fit. Yes I suppose I must go along with the comment above by saying this is now a matter of assembly but isn't it a fact that scratchbuilt parts must also be assembled in the same way. What matters is that I have used the best means at my disposal to achieve the result. Certainly in my case with age creeping relenlessly on parts made by etching are for more accurate than I can now produce from the raw metal.

The next step was obvious I now had etches for locos that were not available from other sources so why not offer them to the wider modelling fraternity. That is where I am today. The future, who knows, 3D printing? Maybe but for the moment I will stick to etching there are other locos to be considered.

 

ArthurK

[Kenton]

Why does it matter?, Why is it important to you that modellers who label themselves 'scratch-builders' should set themselves apart from other modellers?

 

I think it is very important. Ask me to build a kit, supply all the parts and I'll give you a price, ask me to scratch build something and I'll tell you to try another planet. It hs little to do with ability, though I don't have a lathe or would know what to do with one, I can cut raw metal sheet, bend it and of course solder it together but I do not enjoy doing it and actually find having to do it irritating. But building a kit, especially one that is well designed and completely sourced is a most enjoyable and fulfilling experience.

[halfwit]

Why does it matter?, Why is it important to you that modellers who label themselves 'scratch-builders' should set themselves apart from other modellers?

 

A question of honesty perhaps. Scratchbuilding is seen as the highest level of skill in this hobby, how many call themselves a scratchbuilder when what they're really doing is either kit-bashing or kit building?

 

(I'm a kit builder by the way).

[Guest Natalie Graham]

I always solder wooden bits together with nails or glue. Sounds daft doesn't it? But if we use the term soldering it helps if we all know and understand what it means. Saying I solder parts together doesn't mean I am trying to set myself apart from modellers who aren't 'solderers'. Why should there be an assumption that trying to pin down the meaning of the term scratch-building in the light of its use to describe methods which were not traditionally associated with that term is people trying to set themselves apart?

 

Designing the etches of a kit from scratch [...] is scratch building.

 

No it isn't. It is designing. producing a design is not building anything. It is the process which turns that design into a reality that is building. Broadly, and there are always going to be areas of overlap and borderline cases, I would say that if you make the parts from raw materials you have scratch-built it, if you buy in the parts you have kit built it and if you buy it made up you have bought it,

[N15class]

Arthur,

I have also made kits were there is not a lot of the original left.

 

With designing etches, what I find it hard to understand is that if you assemble it it is scratch built if someone else does it is kit built. For exactly the same thing.