What is scratch building in 2012?

[Guest Natalie Graham]

In the first post on this thread it was accepted by the author that you could buy in certain items (like wheels) and call it scratchbuilding. I don't really see why etching isn't any different.

 

I would say it is the way the majority of the model is produced. Just as I would call a model made from raw materials, but with bought-in wheels motor and gears, scratchbuilt, I would still regard a model built from an etched kit but with hand built components as a kit-build.

[halfwit]

I thought the MRJ project you bought the castings and cut out the rest from sheet.

 

I woiuld call it a kit build as you are assembling parts someone else has made. The term 'scratchbuilding aid' seems to have arisen from producers of etched items who didn't produce all the other bits required for the model to be made which would have been expected in a kit.

 

There was a set of those castngs with the relevant parts of MRJ on ebay a little while ago.

 

Yes, the MRJ project was all about cutting metal. This is just a shortcut to the finished article.

I personally would describe this as a kitbuild or as handbuilt, not scratchbuilt as none, or very few, of the parts will be built by myself.

 

But I do wonder how many would buy the etch (or a similar 'scratch aid), build the loco, and claim that its scratchbuilt.

 

I did see those castings but coudn't afford them at the time.

[N15class]

A question of honesty perhaps. Scratchbuilding is seen as the highest level of skill in this hobby, how many call themselves a scratchbuilder when what they're really doing is either kit-bashing or kit building?

 

(I'm a kit builder by the way).

I don't agree my scratch building is to get something I want. It is not because I feel I am at a higher level than anyone else. There are loads of model makers on here who's work inspires me to do better.

[billbedford]

I think it is very important. Ask me to build a kit, supply all the parts and I'll give you a price, ask me to scratch build something and I'll tell you to try another planet. It hs little to do with ability, though I don't have a lathe or would know what to do with one, I can cut raw metal sheet, bend it and of course solder it together but I do not enjoy doing it and actually find having to do it irritating. But building a kit, especially one that is well designed and completely sourced is a most enjoyable and fulfilling experience.

Would that be the same hourly rate or do you give a discount for scratch building?

[halfwit]

I don't agree my scratch building is to get something I want. It is not because I feel I am at a higher level than anyone else. There are loads of model makers on here who's work inspires me to do better.

 

I'm talking about how others would view your work.

Take a nice kitbuilt loco down your local club and people would probably (hopefully!) be quite impressed.

Take a scratch built loco and they'll be astounded!

[N15class]

I'm talking about how others would view your work.

Take a nice kitbuilt loco down your local club and people would probably (hopefully!) be quite impressed.

Take a scratch built loco and they'll be astounded!

 

Not sure why that happens as most members can measure, draw lines and cut things out, use files and do the forming required in the kits. Some kits are harder to build than scratch building.

[Kenton]

No it isn't. It is designing. producing a design is not building anything. It is the process which turns that design into a reality that is building. Broadly, and there are always going to be areas of overlap and borderline cases, I would say that if you make the parts from raw materials you have scratch-built it, if you buy in the parts you have kit built it and if you buy it made up you have bought it,

 

If we are going to be that pedantic then "if you buy in the parts" is simply buying parts just like buying 1 Hornby loco and adding an etched grill to the roof, or buying a new wheel set. I could equally buy sheets of brass and a few ABS castings. It has no more to do with the process of building a model.

 

Designing is a fundamental part of the generation of a kit. If the design is not correct and tested, then it will not build as a kit and it simply becomes another scratch aid. So the process of getting that design correct to me is still from scratch.

[Kenton]

Would that be the same hourly rate or do you give a discount for scratch building?

 

The "planet" reference was an indication that the price of scratch building would be astronomical.

Not sure why that happens as most members can measure, draw lines and cut things out, use files and do the forming required in the kits. Some kits are harder to build than scratch building.

 

May be able to measure, draw and cut but getting the end product to look anything like what it was intended is another matter. If the kit is harder to build (we have all known them) then it ceases to be a "kit".

[Guest]

I think that it is important to differentiate between kit built and scratch built when comparing models. I will always favour a scratch built model that looks a little crooked over a perfect looking kit. To me, a scratch built loco is still a scratch built loco when gear box and motor have been added, it's now a motorised scratch built model. I have in the past, drawn coach artworks, prepared and coated the brass, etched the brass in an home made paddle etching tank, and still don't know in my mind whether the resulting coaches were scratch built. My first week on this site, I read in the forums of someone considering building a scratch built something from a Jidenco kit, it looks like the term has been hijacked.

[N15class]

If the kit is harder to build (we have all known them) then it ceases to be a "kit".

 

Does that mean that as most pre group lining is very hard to do compared to the later post grouping ones, it is no longer lining.

 

It is not how hard it is, that makes it scratch building, it is whether the parts turn up cut out or you cut them out of a sheet.

[N15class]

Designing is a fundamental part of the generation of a kit. If the design is not correct and tested, then it will not build as a kit and it simply becomes another scratch aid. So the process of getting that design correct to me is still from scratch.

 

You have just said that in designing a kit. Yes you have to start from the begining (scratch) That is not however scratch building. It is kit designing from scratch.

[Horsetan]

You have just said that in designing a kit. Yes you have to start from the beginning (scratch) That is not however scratch building. It is kit designing from scratch.

 

I'm just scratching around for an answer to this one.

 

Isn't kit designing then just a virtual build from scratch, without actually physically building the thing?

[Guest Natalie Graham]

It isn't being pedantic at all to say design is not the same as building. There is very clear distinction between designing something and building it, 0ne which, for me, is essential to defining what constitutes scratch-building. I could sit at the drawing board or the computer and design models until the cows come home but I would not have 'built' anything be it from scratch or otherwise. The additional step of clicking the computer mouse to send the design to a 3D printer does not constitute building.

 

To look at the world of large scale steam locos, LBSC designed a large number of locos but he couldn't lay claim to having built all the thousands of locos produced from his design. Equally, if someone builds a loco from raw materials using one of his designs, that person would have built the loco, never mind that he used someone else's design.

 

Suppose I produced a full set of working drawings for a loco, including all the components drawn out to scale and anotated as to what materials they were to be built from and how those parts were to be put together, then sent it off to a model builder who followed those drawings and produced a finished model from them. That would be a scratch-built model beyond doubt but there is no way that I could be said to be the builder of that model. For me the same applies to sending the design off to have the model or parts made to your design, be that design computer-created or drawn manually and whether the process of making the parts is mechanised, automated or traditional model-making techniques.

[Jol Wilkinson]

I woiuld call it a kit build as you are assembling parts someone else has made. The term 'scratchbuilding aid' seems to have arisen from producers of etched items who didn't produce all the other bits required for the model to be made which would have been expected in a kit. Compare what you have with the early Jamieson kits, for example. I bet there's a lot more 'building' needs to be done on those old stamped parts than on your Maning Wardle.

 

There was a set of those castngs with the relevant parts of MRJ on ebay a little while ago.

 

With regard to the Manning Wardle etches, it just so happens that I know the circumstances behind those.

 

Put simply, the person that produced them wanted; "a" to build the model and "b" learn how to produce etched artwork, etc. So he attended the Hobby Holidays Etch Design course to achieve "b" and so created the parts to do "a".

 

Now, whether you will call that scratchbuilding or not, I do not know.

 

To me a "scratch building aid" is just that, something that makes scratchbuilding easier. But I don't think that we have really defined scratchbuilding yet.

 

And how would you describe modifying a carriage kit to create a different diagram, including the use of a modification etch that doesn't fit without some work. Modifying the original kit involves machining off some etched beading and filling in half etch areas. Is it kit bashing, assisted scratch building or, as I see it, just model making? An alternative approach would have been to have designed it for etching from scratch. The end result model would be the same (probably better, because you could design out the original problems), so would it matter how you categorise it?

 

Jol

[Kenton]

It is not how hard it is, that makes it scratch building, it is whether the parts turn up cut out or you cut them out of a sheet.

 

Which was exactly my point - if the parts are not in the kit, or are so bad that they have to be scratch made then it is no longer a "kit", just a scratch aid.

Isn't kit designing then just a virtual build from scratch, without actually physically building the thing?

 

Any kit designer worthy of the name should build the kit (or have it built) or it does not justify the name "kit" I could chop up a pile of brass sheet and call it a kit - but it wouldn't fit together to make anything like a model. (and I have seen a few of those too)

[Worsdell forever]

As I inadvertently started this argument I thought I should join in!

 

A few years ago I wanted to build an LNER J24, at the time there was no kit available. I had a J25 cab and splashers spare from building a London Road J21, I also used an Alexander Models tender kit. all other sheet metal parts were cut from brass, I then used Alexander Models castings for the chimney, dome etc. How would this be defined?

 

My ES1 (see my avatar) really is scratch built, or is it? the buffers are from Slaters.

 

I think what manufacturers call 'scratch aids' are kits, they are a kit of parts to help produce a specific model.

[Guest Natalie Graham]

An alternative approach would have been to have designed it for etching from scratch. The end result model would be the same (probably better, because you could design out the original problems), so would it matter how you categorise it?

 

 

Another alternative would be to scratch-build it, as N15Class is doing with his 2012 Challenge coach. To me having parts etched is an alternative to scratch-building them. Would it matter how you categorise them? Probably not if you were talking in terms of a model of a coach, but if you were talking in the context of a scratch-built model then how it was built would seem very relevant.

[APOLLO]

To scratch build, or not to scratch build, that is the question:

Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer

The slings and arrows of outrageous posters on rmweb,

Or to take arms against a sea of troubles

And by opposing end them. To glue - to solder,

No more; and by a sleep to say we end

The heart-ache of the thousand MTK diesel kits

That white metal is heir to: 'tis a dammnation

Devoutly to be wish'd. To glue, to solder;

To build, perchance to scratch build—ay, there's the rub:

For in that kit of death what dreams may come,

When we have soldered up this mortal kit,

Must give us pause—there's the respect

That makes calamity of so long life.

For who would cut out the bits and bobs of a DJH,

Th'oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,

The pains of hot solder, sod's law's delay,

The insolence of office, and the crap instructions

That patient merit of th'unworthy takes,

When he himself might his scratch 4-6-2 Brittania make (70004, of course !!)

With a bare bodkin? Who would fardels bear,

To grunt and sweat under a weary light,

But that the dread of something after death,

The undiscovere'd GWR county K's kit, from whose bourn

No traveller returns, puzzles the will,

And makes us rather bear those ills we have

Than fly to others that we know not of?

Thus conscience does make cowards of us all,

And thus the native hue of resolution

Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast white metal of thought,

And enterprises of great pitch and moment

With this regard their current models turn awry

And lose the name of action. (Bloody thing won't work )

 

Should have bought a Hornby One !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Brit 4 (William Shake-something)

[Rumblestripe]

Is using a bought in electric motor "scratchbuilding", how about the gears, the wheels? Buffers? What if I'm scratchbuilding a structure can I use moulded or embossed plastic for stonework/brickwork? Hang on, that's propitiatory paint! It's not scratchbuilt unless you grind the pigments yourself!

 

I'm sorry it's a complete nonsense to say that producing a component in CAD is in someway breaking "the rules" CAD is just a tool. If you think it's so easy you should have a go! CAD/CAM is just a skill like using a lathe (something I can't do) or a milling machine. If you are starting from "scratch" then you are scratchbuilding.

[Horsetan]

....propitiatory....

 

^

I bet that word's been scratchbuilt as well

[Rumblestripe]

^

I bet that word's been scratchbuilt as well

 

That's from the spellchecker! I should read what it's offering me first I guess! Technology eh? Makes EVERYTHING so easy

[Guest Natalie Graham]

I'm sorry it's a complete nonsense to say that producing a component in CAD is in someway breaking "the rules" CAD is just a tool. If you think it's so easy you should have a go! CAD/CAM is just a skill like using a lathe (something I can't do) or a milling machine. If you are starting from "scratch" then you are scratchbuilding.

 

It is not about 'breaking the rules', or how hard it is to do, but what constitutes scratch-building and what doesn't? Of course CAD is just a tool but it a design tool. The clue lies in the acronym. A miling machine or lathe are tools for making the parts, not designing them. If starting from scratch means you are scratchbuilding don't you think that you should be doing the building too? If I start the London Marathon and then get in a cab to take me to the finish am I still running a marathon? It is not just where you start but the means you use to get to the finish.

[Rumblestripe]

It is not about 'breaking the rules', or how hard it is to do, but what constitutes scratch-building and what doesn't? Of course CAD is just a tool but it a design tool. The clue lies in the acronym. A miling machine or lathe are tools for making the parts, not designing them. If starting from scratch means you are scratchbuilding don't you think that you should be doing the building too? If I start the London Marathon and then get in a cab to take me to the finish am I still running a marathon? It is not just where you start but the means you use to get to the finish.

 

A milling machine or a lathe makes making parts a LOT easier. CAD could be just used to produce a drawing, it can be used to produce artwork for etching. If it is to be argued that a degree of "hand crafting" is neccessary to produce a true scratchbuilt model then surely you cannot allow the use of a lathe? Certainly a bought in driving wheel is certainly far more difficult to produce whether by CAD or turning up on a lathe. Would it not be more in the "spirit" of scratchbuilding a locomotive to produce a 3D printed wheel of the exact pattern required for a particularly obscure prototype than to use the nearest match from the Romford range?

[t-b-g]

As I said on t'other thread, it is not one where agreement will ever be reached and in many cases it probably doesn't matter.

 

I have just built an LBSCR Terrier. As no good kit or RTR one was suitable, I used a Branchlines frame kit, a load of bought in castings and the rest of the body was cut from nickel silver sheet, with a bit of brass tube for the boiler and a drawing pin for the smokebox door.

 

To me, that is scratchbuilt because it is impossible to make another one without getting more metal sheet and tube and cutting them out.

 

Anything that can be reproduced many times over by ordering more from a manufacturer (etcher or printer) is, in my view, a kit. If you can have two identical locos, one built by the designer, which is deemed scratchbuilt, then another built by somebody else, deemed to be kitbuilt, then I get confused!

 

It is a very grey area though, as Paul pointed out with his hybrid from various sources. We run a Q5 on Tickhill, which has some Dave Alexander castings for the boiler and cab, scratchbuilt frames and footplate and a Steve Barnfield tender. Kitbuilt? Scratchbuilt? I don't know and I don't worry about it too much!

 

 

[RBE]

It is not about 'breaking the rules', or how hard it is to do, but what constitutes scratch-building and what doesn't? Of course CAD is just a tool but it a design tool. The clue lies in the acronym. A miling machine or lathe are tools for making the parts, not designing them. If starting from scratch means you are scratchbuilding don't you think that you should be doing the building too? If I start the London Marathon and then get in a cab to take me to the finish am I still running a marathon? It is not just where you start but the means you use to get to the finish.

 

I have to disagree Natalie, as a proffessional CAD operator and degree educated engineer I would consider CAD a tool to create a finished model as much as a scalpel or peice of emery cloth. The difference is in when the tools are applied. When traditionally building something you gradually shape and stick on or rub off bits until you have the desired shape you want, the only difference in CAD modelling is you do that in the computer first using the slicing shaping tools in the program and then the 3D printer or etching solution does the physical bit first time to what you have spent those same labourful hours telling it to do whilst using the CAD program and its virtual tools. The skills are still there only in a different no less meaningful way.

 

Cav