Great West Road - transfers & I’m not talking football!

[Andrew P]

Clever planning Polly, its all in the Detail and your sure going for that BIG time.

 

All the best.

[Castle]

Hi Polly and Ray,

 

There has been much progress it seems! The plans are looking really great and I look forward to seeing the track go down on the baseboards.

 

I hope you both had a good holiday season,

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[southern42]

Concluding that the track plan for GWRd is close enough to test out, I redrew it in Peco Code 75 (as half the turnouts on the diagrams are Code 75 curved points, anyway!).  We've probably got enough bits and pieces to try out different sections before deciding which track system to use.

 

Also, as the platform layout width has grown to 2ft, I've pulled out the platform a bit and extended the bay road to see if a full length passenger platform would work and, maybe, help make the platform look longer.  The platform will not continue beyond the 4ft board.  The extra foot at the end will be a simple extension that will either lift off or lift up when not in use, with a removable bridge.

 

For the early 1960s, this would serve a local service to main line stations running the odd GWR railcar,  14xx with the new Bachmann auto-trailer, and DMUs (class 121 and 122) with speed whiskers until 1965's half yellow..   It would appear that Class 165/1 (as used on the Greenford-Paddington service), in FGW Neon Dynamic Lines livery, could be a 2011 contender, subject to availability (I could always borrow FGW's class 153 acquired from Arriva Trains Wales instead!).

http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/fgw-diesel-class-153.html

 

Anyway, to the platform.

 

 

It occurred to me that, with the Great Western Preservation Group previously using the old margarine factory sidings opposite the platform for the likes of Collett's heavy goods #2885, these sidings along the platform could be used by the preservation group in 2011 with the addition of an old railway building or two below the bridge to give them a workshop/shed - modeller's license and all that.  Unfortunately, by 2011, #2885 had been cosmetically restored at Tyseley and was being exhibited at Birmingham Moor Street (http://www.gwrpg.co.uk/2011/08/ and http://www.tyseleylocoworks.co.uk/tlw/2885_moor_street.htm).  Maybe we'll see the AEC 4WDM diesel shunter running up and down the sidings, one day - it's on the TO DO list!

 

I am making the assumption that, in this situation, the sidings fell out of use after the closure of the Dock at the end of the Branch in 1964, and were later taken over by the Preservation Group before anyone had a chance to lift the tracks.

 

[southern42]

Clever planning Polly, its all in the Detail and your sure going for that BIG time.

 

All the best.

 

Thanks, Andy.  I like to know what I'm going to model and there are so many possibilities with this one, but I would like it to look feasible.

 

Hi Polly and Ray,

 

There has been much progress it seems! The plans are looking really great and I look forward to seeing the track go down on the baseboards.

 

I hope you both had a good holiday season,

 

All the best,

 

Castle

 

Thanks, Castle.

Hopefully, we'll get a chance to play around with some track, to see how realistic the plan is.  I can foresee a number of changes or alterations coming up, but hopefully, none that will stop me building it.

 

We had a great holiday season, thanks, hope you did too.

[southern42]

A few bits and pieces on the station roads.

 

On the Southall Diagram, there is a left hand turnout from the relief road to the loop.

 

 

 

There are several photos showing changes to the relevant bit of trackwork on this page on Disused Stations

 

Starting in 1976 with Platform 1 and canopy, looking down the branch from the station building to the footbridge.

 

(1983) The next photo looks back towards the station building, with an empty waste train hauled by 56039 returning to the waste depot.  [Can I make my station look as good as this view?]

 

Next, views of the new (Stationmaster's) layout with 70013 Oliver Cromwell (2009) and GWR steam railmotor (2014).  [Note the concrete sleepers!  Hmm.  I hadn't thought of that one!  No, I'm not swapping sleepers around; the wooden ones stay!  Also, Canopy and Signal Box have gone.  They could be removable on GWRd.]

 

Operating the layout to follow.

Edited January 10, 2016 by southern42

[southern42]

A bit about Operating the station roads, referring to the diagram posted previously, repeated here for convenience.

 

Using the new layout would allow an incoming train or light engine to gain access to the loop when there is another train in the platform.  On the diagram above, that can't happen.  As GWRd's station serves the mainline, branch and shed, it might be worth doing, but it will only work for light engines or short trains,e.g. locomotive and brake van, locomotive and auto-trailer.

 

The dotted line indicates the turnouts in question.

 

For 2011, the situation could be:

 

A stone train on the platform road waiting to go out onto the main line while

A heritage locomotive comes off the main line before going on shed

Or

A couple of heritage locomotives with support coaches are on the platform road while

A Class 66 comes off the mainline onto the loop, then runs down the branch to pick up hoppers from the sidings. 

 

To enable this movement, I would probably have to use a double slip, or maybe use shorter turnouts, to fit it in.

 

A stone train on the branch road waits for the heritage locomotive with support coach to cross onto the loop.

Hoppers wait on the siding to be collected by a Class 66.

 

 

For 1961, steam engines would be coming on and off shed whilst goods trains would be going in and out of the main line and branch.

 

Before Nationalisation, until the Branch Station closed (1942), there would be shunting of auto-trailers and, before that, steam railmotors, to and from the railmotor shed by tank engines from the engine shed.

 

Of course, it might be more interesting/challenging without the additional turnouts and, visually, the track looks less cramped, and longer, without them.

 

And, do I NEED a headshunt where the sidings join the branch?  I've looked at several diagrams but only come across those where the sidings have a headshunt but I don't know if that's always the case.  Anyway, I spent Friday evening, in vain, trying to fit one in!  Would a righthand trap point, off the track as it joins the branch, be necessary or sufficient?

 

 

 

If there's anything you can help with or just comment upon I'd be delighted to hear it

Edited January 10, 2016 by southern42

[southern42]

Looking at the diagrams, I think I would only add the turnouts if the station boards could be extended by another foot (300mm).

 

In this instance, using the platform road WITHOUT lefthand turnouts, trains would have to wait off scene if the platform road was occupied.

Light engines or short trains could wait in Platform 2, if available, but I doubt it would be normal practice on GWRd.

 

Trains for the branch would have to fit on a 4ft sector plate, so no 20-wagon trains, please!

Edited January 10, 2016 by southern42

[southern42]

................

 

And, do I NEED a headshunt where the sidings join the branch?  I've looked at several diagrams but only come across those where the sidings have a headshunt but I don't know if that's always the case.  Anyway, I spent Friday evening, in vain, trying to fit one in!  Would a righthand trap point, off the track as it joins the branch, be necessary or sufficient?

 

.................

 

To try and answer my question, I took Staines West as an example.

 

1. Using the 1896 map of Staines West in Branch Lines of West London, Middleton Press

The line to the goods shed, sidings and bay platform includes a headshunt and facing points.   The sidings, on a curve, (appear to) come off a 3-way point.  Since the LH road led to a mustard and flour mill and was was lifted in 1957, it would seem inappropriate to use.

In 1964, the outermost siding was used as a terminal for heating oil.  In 1965, it was photographed  with a trap point on exit from the gated site.  The question here would be, was the trap point in place before then, i.e., in 1961?

 

2. In the 1917 map in Great Western Railway Engine Sheds London Division, the trap point is on the exit from the double slip to headshunt, goods shed, sidings and bay platform.  [The diagram on Signalling Record Society's page shows the double slip: http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwa/S106.htm.]

 

3. In Great Western Engine Sheds 1947 (Lyons), the track diagram (dated 1947) illustrates facing points rather than a double slip, and no 3-way point.  If any traps were used, they are not included on the diagram.

 

A few things to try out on my test file.

 

A few hours later...

 

 

Any degree of success ended with a headshunt inserted in the manner of Staines West, 1947, so I'll stick with the diagram below for the time being so that I can move onto the shed roads - this might upset everything that has gone before, of course!  

 

 

The main issues that arise are: the length of the sidings as I want them as long as possible; not placing  turnouts over the layout board joins; keeping the sidings parallel to the platform roads; maintaining a smooth curve; and making it look right.

[Andrew P]

Looking very good Polly, whens the Grass going down What I meant to say was Whens the Baseboard going down.

[southern42]

Looking very good Polly, whens the Grass going down What I meant to say was Whens the Baseboard going down.

 

Sometime this year, I hope, but not before I'm happy it'll work out.

 

First, I'll need to mark out the shed roads, buildings and turntable and see how it turns out using Peco Code 75.  I doubt much of that will be seen under shed conditions of the 60s, or the greenery of 2011.  I might try something a little bit different for the BLT.  We'll see!

[Jock67B]

Evening Polly,

I apologise for all the ratings but I've just caught up after some health issues since a hernia operation on 31st Dec. of all days for a Scot to then be denied a drink!! So a very late Happy New Year to you and Ray. I got a shock when I clicked on 'Great West Road' as you had been fairly quiet before Christmas and now it's buzzing! Good to see the track plan - do you have any idea when you'll make a start on the boards? I'm looking forward to the development of this layout as your planning looks very meticulous,

Kind regards,

Jock.

[southern42]

Evening Polly,

I apologise for all the ratings but I've just caught up after some health issues since a hernia operation on 31st Dec. of all days for a Scot to then be denied a drink!! So a very late Happy New Year to you and Ray. I got a shock when I clicked on 'Great West Road' as you had been fairly quiet before Christmas and now it's buzzing! Good to see the track plan - do you have any idea when you'll make a start on the boards? I'm looking forward to the development of this layout as your planning looks very meticulous,

Kind regards,

Jock.

 

Evening Jock and Happy New Year to you and your family.

Great to to see you well enough to take the time to drop in and plough through it all.  We've got quite a lot on at the moment, but I'd hope to try out some boards by summer.

 

In the meantime, I'd like to set up some track line-ups to see how they'd look. A short goods trains for the BR branch line and my old 14xx with the new auto-trailer; and a stone train for 2011

 

2011 branch mineral trains are quite short.  I counted 28 MEA open box wagons behind a Class 66 on a Brentford empties run (youtube video).  I reckon GWRd could take 7 MEAs;  6 Seacows; and, maybe, 5 JGA ex-RMC Aggregates in Orange Livery; but only 3 JGA bogie hoppers running down the branch.  If I use the sidings for mainline traffic (ones that don't go down the branch), I could get extra wagons on the end, but not many! 

 

My longest heritage train would be 3 steam locos + 2 support coaches.

 

And, for those who'd like to see that formation in action.

[The Stationmaster]

Poly I think what you've got to in Post 858 is probably as good a compromise track layout wise as you will get and it should deliver the movements you are after.

[southern42]

Poly I think what you've got to in Post 858 is probably as good a compromise track layout wise as you will get and it should deliver the movements you are after.

Thanks, Mike. I really appreciate that. I did hope to run the OUTWARD road into the branch platform which, I think, looks better for the 1960s but it doesn't work for 2011 when all shed roads lead to the one exit, so I think I'll settle for the above track plan.

 

Then, yesterday, I came across this:    :locomotive: :locomotive:

 

 

Now that got me thinking about all those locos moving about the shed in the 60s...

and the layout, and where everything goes.  One of which is the boiler house.

 

I've been wondering, for a while, where to place the boiler house as I had assumed the one at 81C ran on coal. 

 

So, yesterday, I checked it out.  It was oil-fired from new (1953) so I don't have to worry about it being behind the engine shed or do I?

To get oil to the boiler house, where were the heating oil tanks situated and were they supplied by heating oil tank wagons unloading on one of the yard roads?

 

 

'FUEL' is marked on the Trackmaps Diagram alongside the diesel roads but refers to the Fuelling Points for the diesels.  Fuel storage tanks were on the south side of the shed roads where the AEC road goes off the Branch (Track Diagram in GWR Engine Sheds London Division).   Presumably, the heating oil tank was there as well. 

Can any of you confirm that or say anything more about it?

 

[The Stationmaster]

It might well have been piped from the storage tank area Polly although there could have been a discharge location by the boiler house as I can recall it was a bit mucky there.   The interesting question too is where were diesel shunters fuelled before the DMU servicing adaptation was carried out in the late 1950s? (possibly adjacent to the fuel storage tanks as at some other sheds which had been equipped to handle oil fuelled steam engines).

[southern42]

Thanks Mike.

I'd be interested to know where the AEC railcars were fuelled! 

 

But in the meantime...

 

Saw this - 1965, coming up the branch line:  http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTMwWDc1MA==/z/nfYAAOSwMmBV2fhh/$_57.JPG

 

Identifying it led to:

SMBP3875 14T Class B tank wagon WW2 type at Feltham Marshalling Yard 1968: http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/smbptank/h63fb9478#h63fb9478

 

and, on RMweb:  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/38805-oil-tank-wagons-and-traffic-on-post-wwii-gwr/?p=427730

 

[southern42]

Still wondering about the fuel tanks, I had a look at my books again but only came up with two illustrations of the fuel tank area (both in the background of their respective photos).  Enlarging the relevant area of the images helped.

 

One is from a photo of 0-4-2T no. 1406 in steam outside the railmotor shed in 1957.  In the background, the coaling area is on the left and the branch and siding to the AEC are on the right.  Between the two is a long shed which looks similar to the old railmotor shed.  And is that a large tank, behind (or is it just part of the scenery)?  It's all too easy to see what you want/expect to see.

 

V. Mitchell and K Smith, Branch Lines of West London, Middleton Press, detail from plate 22

 

The other shows the new 1953 shed.  The image below is from the far right of the picture.  The sand house and 'coke' bins are on the left.  Behind the long dark shed is a large corrugated building which is not in the image above.  Is this view earlier or later?

 

C. Hawkins and G. Reeve, Great Western Railway Engine Sheds London Division, detail from page145

 

 

Earlier!!  It is in a 1948 view of the GWR shed with an AEC railcar so there will be no need to model it.

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/southall/index21.shtml

 

Now, here's the heating oil for the boiler house!  It took me a while to remember I had a copy of it, not that I had given it any thought, before!  Brilliant space saver up there, though!  That could well be modelled.

Photo © unravelled of this parish

 

Amazing what you can find out when the weather is not so good! 

It hasn't answered Stationmaster's question about where the diesel shunters (or the railcars).were fuelled, though.

[southern42]

Evening all.

Having decided on a 4ft sector plate to the branch fiddle yard, I sent a few wagons down to the dock to see how they would look!  I think they went the wrong way but I took a couple of snaps for the album when I caught up with them.

 

 

 

 

[southern42]

Evening all.

Another diversion from track planning.  This time, the turntable.

The following link is only the second photo I've come across of the turntable which replaced the GWR one but it shows how the vacuum system works.

https://en-gb.facebook.com/161421647218065/photos/a.210517012308528.65629.161421647218065/685371978156360/.

 

A google search revealed a preserved one at Yeovil Railway Centre: http://www.onlineweb.com/rail/photos/yeovil_rly_centre_2010/yeovil_rly_centre_2010.htm

The Railway Centre:  http://www.yeovilrailway.freeservers.com/

 

Does anyone do a model / kit or, at least, one that could be adapted?  I'd be looking to using a 65ft turntable rather than a 70ft one, though!

 

 

Post Script - 60019 Bittern and 44932 on the turntable September 2010.

http://www.yeovilrailway.freeservers.com/010910.html

 

Post Script 2 !! But not available as yet, it seems.

http://www.metalsmith.co.uk/4mm_scale_00_EM_P4.htm

Edited January 20, 2016 by southern42

[southern42]

Evening, all.

 

An update on the track plan.

 

After looking through a book of shed diagrams for some ideas and examples, I tinkered a bit with the track plan.  The main concerns were coaling, the turntable area, and exit from the branch sidings.  I ended up resizing the shed!

 

The two diesel roads stay. This suits the '50s-'60s move towards diesels (railcars and DMUs) and how the site is used by the heritage rail tour industry in 2011.

 

The three steam roads better reflect the size of the land the shed sits on (the layout boards).  The useful thing is that the shed building can be moved forward to open up the area at the back of the shed.   This will allow room for a good size boiler house or a separate diesel maintenance shed directly behind Diesel Road 1 with a walkway between.  I can just imagine a couple of workers, fag in mouth, mug in hand, standing in the alley discussing the new Westerns coming out of Swindon (or, rather, how they did on the Pools this week!).

 

Steam locos are now repaired elsewhere as there is not room for a repair shop for steam that would be in keeping with the shed layout but, since some form of workshop would be an advantage to the 2011 servicing group, I’ve included one on the diesel road as an option.

 

Steam Road 3 now has a long run in front of the shed capable of holding 2 1960s tender locos or, in 2011, steam loco with support coach and diesel or adding to the shed's throng of maroon liveried 33s, 37s and 47s standing in all their glory .  Huh hum!

 

Illustration coming up.

Edited January 25, 2016 by southern42

[southern42]

The turntable area needed sorting to get locos out on the road.

 

The pre-50s scheme is better suited to the layout but how best to fit in a coal hoist?

 

In GWR days, locos took the right hand road to the turntable.  So,  I'm thinking, coal hoist on the turntable road, coal fed from wagons at the rear on ‘Dead End’ Road.

 

 

So...hopefully...GWRd will be able to combine coaling practice from both shed eras as suits the layout.

 

GWR - coal ramp

“Normal procedure was for the engines to arrive at the station end, often crossing over the main line in pairs and threes, coming in from the various yards. Engines approached the turntable to the right of the ash bin, where fires were thrown out, proceeded to the turntable, turned if necessary and moved forward to have the smokebox dealt with.  They would then move up the yard, coal and reverse back into the shed.”  GWR Engine Sheds London Division, ‘Southall’, page 140.

 

Post 1953 - coaling hoist behind and to the right of the shed:

“The old coaler was lamented, the new electric hoist prone to jamming.  Engines could take coal on arrival, drop fires and ashes and reverse (turning if necessary) into the shed at either end.  There was also a run-round on the north side of the shed, the obscurely named ‘Coke Road’.  The new turntable was vacuum-operated (‘some Midland idea’) a great advance on the old example (‘bit of a brute at times’) but needing a push on occasions if a loco was dead.”  GWR Engine Sheds London Division, ‘Southall’, page 141.

 

 

Edit typo

Edited January 26, 2016 by southern42

[southern42]

Some bits and pieces to finish.

 

 

A 70ft vacuum turntable would be awesome, but I think a 65ft turntable would give a bit more breathing space but I can make up my mind on that later.

 

A bit about ‘Dead End’.  Southall, in the ‘60s, had (storage) roads in the back of beyond.  ‘Dead End’ is GWRd’s back of beyond.  The area is overgrown although passable.  Tank wagons can access the Fuel Tank throughout the early ‘60s, and 2011 diesels and coaches can be stabled there though it is even more overgrown!.

 

The headshunt from the sidings has been replaced with a trap - so less cluttered.

 

And whose silly idea was it to demolish the coal ramp? 

 

Anyone know a good foreman to keep the locos in order?    

[southern42]

That's sorted, then, you reckon?

 

 

Well, I could put a (steam) workshop down at 'Dead End' in anticipation of Flying Scotsman's bit of restoration work but then I'd need to rethink the coaling...and fuel tank... 

 

[southern42]

Alternative site for workshop, this time for steam.  I thought I might as well check it out having mentioned it. 

 

 

 

 

[southern42]

Hi all.  Thanks for the ratings and looking in.  Much appreciated.

 

Thought it was about time I looked at some actual measurements.  To scale things down a bit, the measurements for the layout shed are based on the drawings of the former GWR shed, dimensions from other sheds given in GW Engine Sheds 1947, and GWR recommendations from elsewhere.

 

I've made the steam shed 100ft long and the diesel shed 150ft.  The real shed consists of 6 road steam shed: 210ft x 100ft plus diesel shed: 275ft  x 33ft, plus stores, etc.  In layout terms, that is a whopping 1100mm x 632mm which is essentially one whole 4ft x 2ft board...all to itself!  Another 4ft x 2ft board out back...and...

Tempting... 

 

I return to Little Southall...

 

Measurements on the pic below include a 3-car Class 117 on Diesel Road 1 to give some kind of scale.

(Kernow - Bachmann 35-500 Class 117 3 Car DMU Set BR Green Speed Whiskers which I've only just come across.  The 117s were based at Southall and Plymouth Laira.  Came out 1959-1961.  What excellent timing!  The release of the model will be well timed, too, I hope!)

 

The diagram

The ruler <--60--> gives layout measurements in mm.

The real world size is given in ft and in. (Proper measurements!)

 

 

Any comments welcomed or alternative ways to coal, add workshop, etc. 

Does anyone have any thoughts on coaling below the water tower?  Piling it up with coal while the locos are out....for instance?  It's where to put the coal wagons that's the problem.  I envisage 1474 backwards and forwards from the branch sidings fetching and carrying, so to speak. There always seems to be a pic of 1474 with coal wagons for company!