Great West Road - transfers & I’m not talking football!

[southern42]

Class 117 about to depart Platform 2 with the 1810 to Paddington.

 

 

 

 

Edit.  Shed measurements on previous post #875 if you missed it.

Edited January 27, 2016 by southern42

[southern42]

After checking the layout dimensions, I thought it's time to give you some locos...

 

But will they fit?  An evening spent multiplying length and width of locos, DMU, railcars and GWR coal wagons in feet and inches by 4 to bring them down to size and it was done. 

 

So, finally, a taster of 1960s steam and diesel on shed.

Can you spot the interloper?

The 3 big 'uns have just arrived.

1474 is being kept busy.

 

 

[Adams442T]

Nice one Polly!    I would have thought the Black 5, and the WD 2-8-0 might be a tight squeeze on the 65' turntable though? 

[Andrew P]

Coming on in LEAPS AND BOUNDS in the planning now Polly, I feel Depot Layouts have a certain presence about them, real atmosphere, I'm planning a Shed / Goods Yard on the other side of my Potting Shed, 12ft x 2.5ft scenic plus Fiddle Yard and I'm ordering the Townstreet GWR 4 Road Engine Shed this morning.

 

Its good to see so much thought and detain going into the project, well done.

 

All the best

 

P.S. Regards to Ray and probably bump into you both at Stafford on Sunday week.

[southern42]

Nice one Polly!    I would have thought the Black 5, and the WD 2-8-0 might be a tight squeeze on the 65' turntable though? 

 

Thanks, Peter.

A  Black 5, the longest version being 63 ft 11 ³⁄₄in,  should be fine.on a 65ft turntable but once you get to a Castle (65 ft 2 in ) you might be pushing it. 

 

The GWR 2-8-0 is 63 ft 2 ¹⁄₄ in.  I don't have the length of Riddle's WD 2-8-0 other than it was based on the Stanier 8F which is 63 ft 0 ¹⁄₂ in.

 

GWRd stock that is over 65 ft include:

 

66 ft 2 in           9F                          

66 ft 4 ¹⁄₄ in       4700

67 ft 4 ³⁄₄ in       West Country (Tangmere, 2011)

68 ft 2 in           King (King Edward I, 2011) I hadn't planned on having the graffitied one rotting away on GWRd!

68 ft 9 in           8F Britannia (70000 and 70013, 2011)

72 ft 11 ³⁄₄ in     A1 (Flying Scotsman, 1960s) Preserved. Could be turned with a 70ft Cowans and Sheldon

72 ft 11 ³⁄₄ in     A4 (Tornado, 2011)    

 

The list is quite useful because it shows that only the 9F and 4700 of the regular 1960s stock are over the edge of a 65ft turntable .

 

For 2011, as the turntable will be on the layout anyway, I will have measures for turning it into a state of disrepair or 'under restoration' so the locos will still have to go up the mainline to turn.  Things like water columns could be removable but I wouldn't like to mess about with a turntable.  Besides, it'll be somewhere to park some unsightly stock to keep up appearances!

 

It'll be a play off between a slightly longer coaling road or the larger turntable!  This is where the diagram is coming in useful.  The next stage will be to assemble sections of track to see how it works.

 

But first, a long shot of the shed for an overall view.

 

 

This has just reminded me.  Last summer, we went down to the West Somerset Railway and watched the 65ft GWR turntable in action... which got me thinking and checking out the website.  I found this - all 68 ft 9 in of it!

 

http://westsomersetrailway.vticket.co.uk/shopimages/articles/extra/Britannia%20on%20the%20Minehead%20Turntable%20small.jpg

 

Looks like a 65ft GWR turntable might just do the job, after all! 

On the other hand...

 

[The Stationmaster]

The important bit on a turntable is not the overall length but the total wheelbase length (and hopefully being able to balance the engine on the table as well).  

 

The wheelbase of a 'Castle' is 54ft 6.5",  a 28XX is 53ft 7.75",  and a 9F is 55ft 11" so all would fit on a 65ft turntable with no trouble (even if they weren't nicely balanced).

[southern42]

Coming on in LEAPS AND BOUNDS in the planning now Polly, I feel Depot Layouts have a certain presence about them, real atmosphere, I'm planning a Shed / Goods Yard on the other side of my Potting Shed, 12ft x 2.5ft scenic plus Fiddle Yard and I'm ordering the Townstreet GWR 4 Road Engine Shed this morning.

 

Its good to see so much thought and detain going into the project, well done.

 

All the best

 

P.S. Regards to Ray and probably bump into you both at Stafford on Sunday week.

 

Ah!  Atmosphere!

 

Here in plenty!

 

 

A bit of a challenge to get GWRd looking like that but as long as I keep the ash, and the soot, and the grime in mind...not to mention walking speed!

But did anyone spot a black tank on concrete (at 2mins 19sec)?   Would this be a fuel tank / oil disposal tank / other?  The town houses in the background indicate that it is on the north side beyond the repair shop.  On the right, at the beginning of the sequence, I'm guessing, is part of the old footbridge over the mainline from Glade Lane since gone.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Southall,+Greater+London/@51.5069429,-0.3670162,371m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x48760d353d101cb3:0xbafc1677ccf86665

 

There is a fairly good shot, if brief, of the building next to the coal hoist - massive!  I foresee that this will need trimming back if I model any of it!  I'm tempted, because in a RCTS photo there is a man in a hut who is waiting to be modelled.

 

http://www.rcts.org.uk/photographs/archive/380/CH/CH01928.jpg

 

 

Off now to sort out some traffic for the station roads.

 

 

P.S. Stafford.   81G Great West Road is expecting to get some inspiration from 82G Templecombe Road Shed...

Edited January 28, 2016 by southern42

[southern42]

The important bit on a turntable is not the overall length but the total wheelbase length (and hopefully being able to balance the engine on the table as well).  

 

The wheelbase of a 'Castle' is 54ft 6.5",  a 28XX is 53ft 7.75",  and a 9F is 55ft 11" so all would fit on a 65ft turntable with no trouble (even if they weren't nicely balanced).

 

Thanks, Mike.  I will update my stock list! 

 

My loco shapes might be misleading for the turntable because they are drawn buffer to buffer which gives me an overall length to play with.  Side on locos will look shorter because we tend to look at locos from boiler door to rear of tender / coal bunker.  And they'll all look bigger or smaller depending on what they are standing near.  So, I'm hoping that what looks a little tight on the diagram won't be so bad on the layout - even those curves going round the corner!

[southern42]

Before I started looking at what's going on in the station, I looked at a few movements around the shed.  Then I moved the shed further back and made the boiler house a bit smaller.

 

The most obvious difference whilst doing it, is a better track line from turntable to shed, and more space around the front corner of the shed building.

 

.

 

But then I brought the front edge forward again and made the shed longer!

 

 

A few options there but I guess it will depend on whether to hide the locos or put them on show; how imposing the shed would look; or what sort of 'backscene' the windows of the stores, offices and mess rooms would make at footplate level.

 

You've noticed the Railcar is on the move.  Maybe we can catch up with it next time!

[southern42]

' Morning, all.

 

Now, where's that railcar?

 

Ah, departing under the footbridge, already, but now in its correct green livery with speed whiskers!  1474 pulls the auto-trailer out of the railmotor shed ready for the Greenford-West Ealing service.  Wagons, with coal for shed use, stand in the sidings (now with trap on exit to the branch line).

 

 

 

The railmotor shed was 200 ft x 20 ft (800mm x 80mm).

 

Two modified Ratio (527) Carriage shed kits would give a 600mm (2ft) shed which would fit the siding more convincingly - more in keeping with the length of track.  As the sidings and railmotor road will be stepped down below the platform roads, I'm hoping it won't be intrusive.  OK, I don't strictly need it for 1961 but, since I have GWR stock itching to get out for a run, and an early steam railmotor on order, it will definitely want a place on the board.

 

The sidings.  The business of coaling set my mind thinking about how to get coal in and out.  If the sidings are dedicated to shed use, 1474, pannier tank, or that Class 08 could collect wagons (full) from one and return (empty) to the other. They would then become the Coal Sidings.

 

If the sidings were associated with the shed, then (in 2011) it would be an easy thing to lease them to the Little Preservation Group after losing the lease on the engine shed and yard to the Big Heritage Company.  We might, then, see the little AEC 4 wheel diesel shunter running up and down!  That sorts that lot out!

 

[Northroader]

As Mike Stationmaster says, it's the wheelbase that mattered in getting the engine on the t/table. You could move a shorter loco up and down a bit, and it would 'rock' as it balanced, longer locos couldn't do this, and it was much more effort shoving them round. Best make sure you've got your biggest locos fully coaled up at the stage before trying to turn them!

The tank seen at Southall, post 882, looks like a storage tank for diesel oil for the d.m.u's. I think there's still a similar one at the end of Cardiff Canton dmu.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Northroader

[southern42]

As Mike Stationmaster says, it's the wheelbase that mattered in getting the engine on the t/table. You could move a shorter loco up and down a bit, and it would 'rock' as it balanced, longer locos couldn't do this, and it was much more effort shoving them round. Best make sure you've got your biggest locos fully coaled up at the stage before trying to turn them!

The tank seen at Southall, post 882, looks like a storage tank for diesel oil for the d.m.u's. I think there's still a similar one at the end of Cardiff Canton dmu.

 

Thanks, Northroader and welcome to GWRd.

 

This morning,  I noticed another tank on top of the stores behind the diesel shed on a 1990s pic which might be of interest.  I assume it was there in the late 50's and '60s.

http://www.crjennings.com/Railway%20Structures%20Steam%20Sheds/main%20images%205/SS%20Images%2017.html

[Northroader]

At a guess, I would suggest heating oil for what looks like some staff amenity? underneath.

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks, Northroader and welcome to GWRd.

 

This morning,  I noticed another tank on top of the stores behind the diesel shed on a 1990s pic which might be of interest.  I assume it was there in the late 50's and '60s.

http://www.crjennings.com/Railway%20Structures%20Steam%20Sheds/main%20images%205/SS%20Images%2017.html

It was the fuel tank for the boiler for heating I believe.  The picture looks as if it is post 1977 - very definitely post 1970.

[southern42]

I pushed some stock around in the station during the day to see what would happen, or at least, to make sure there were no surprises.. 

I mapped it out in PowerPoint as I went along so that I didn't get lost but DIDN'T SAVE IT!

It crashed!

 

Fortunately, I had saved the images so I just have to remember the captions.

 

The first three images show a goods train after it has arrived from the mainline.

 

The 9F hauls the train forward to clear the turnout.

 

The loco reverses the train, uncouples, and run rounds the train.

 

The train is pushed back to clear the turnout.  The loco waits for the signal to go on shed.

 

 

 

The second three, show the train being prepared to go down the branch line.

 

The pannier tank goes to uncouple the brake van.

 

The brake van is left on the loop.

 

Wagons collected, brake van attached, the train waits for the signal to depart.

 

 

Now for the interesting bits

1.  The turnout for the branch line had to be moved - but better now than when the track is stuck down!

 

2..  It confirmed the number of wagons for the branch line traffic (and 4ft sector plate):.
Tender loco + 7 wagons (or 5 + well tank) + brake van
Tank loco + 8 wagons + brake van
(all depending on size of wagon of course)
although there is a rule that says that a brake van only has to be attached in certain circumstances.
[brentford = 40 wagons or 50-60 double headed + 20ton brake van on the end.]

 

3.  I'll also need check out the same for tank engine doing the whole job and the return journey.  Don't want any headaches later on.

 

4.  Where to put uncoupling magnets will take some working out, but not just now!

 

 

Edit to correct numbers!

Edited January 30, 2016 by southern42

[southern42]

Morning all.

 

Seems I was wildly out, earlier, on my guesswork.

 

[VIDEO PAddignton-Southall 1060s]

But did anyone spot a black tank on concrete (at 2mins 19sec)?   Would this be a fuel tank / oil disposal tank / other?  The town houses in the background indicate that it is on the north side beyond the repair shop.  On the right, at the beginning of the sequence, I'm guessing, is part of the old footbridge over the mainline from Glade Lane since gone.

 

What I thought might have been a footbridge is a TUNNEL under the railway entered via an alley from Park Avenue to Glade Lane.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Southall,+Greater+London/@51.507956,-0.3663419,93m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x48760d353d101cb3:0xbafc1677ccf86665

 

All about it here under the section "Bridges and Tunnels":  http://southallbackwhen.blogspot.co.uk/2007_09_01_archive.html

Edited January 31, 2016 by southern42

[southern42]

Morning all.

Before I post some more train movements and subsequent alterations, here is another interesting find.

 

Another Cowans and Sheldon turntable (click on image for larger view to highlight all the detail. I'm thinking in the realms of how to make the layout look old and worn - the bent metal bar with missing bolt and the battered operating notice, for example.)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Stewarts_Lane_engine_shed_%2834%29.jpg

[southern42]

Fast forward to 2011 and a bit of colour!
 
View of a 125ft steam shed and how it houses a large tender loco and its support coach.

 
Test run of light engines with support coaches waiting to reverse out of the yard and clear of the In-Out road. 

 
Ready to depart for a gala weekend on a preserved railway.

 
 
The layout. So that the 5-car train does not enter or obstruct the exit road when formed, the shed has been shortened.  The train is based on a prototype movement but from the layout point of view it might be better to reverse the order so that a support coach starts from inside the shed, one of the locos possibly running round the train in the platform as did on the real train on route to its destination.  A straight train and a longer shed?

 

To fit a 5-car train into the platform road, the turnouts have been changed so that the Outward Road can exit onto the branch line (RH trap point at Southall), as it did at 81C in 1961, though not used in 2011. One problem I can foresee is that of getting the larger locos round the tighter curve.  Something to work on.
 
GWRd.  The shed yard is overgrown especially on the south side but the current occupiers of the shed are gradually clearing it.  The old Outward Road has been out of use and blocked off from the branch line for some time and is used for storing stock.  The turntable had been removed and the well filled in but, amazingly, one has been unearthed and installed!  Their next project is to get it working.

[After all, this is former 81G not C, and it would be easier to have the 1961 turntable 'out of order' than try to hide or disguise it, and it would be just as much fun sending out those steam locos to turn on the triangle!]

 

Can't wait to test out the branch traffic!

[southern42]

I was thinking how the different types of block trains would look and work on the branch.  These are a mixture of box wagons (scrap), hoppers (aggregates), and a 3-flat rake of yellow 20ft waste containers.

 

 
 
Rethinking the Station Yard
What if the station sidings were used by mainline traffic instead of a preservation group?
What sort of movement can be expected?
How long do movements take?
 
I'll start with trains that stop at Acton Yard (change of engine?) before they depart to/arrive from Brentford.
 
Examples.
1.  ARRIVALS

(i)  3 March 2011 7A17 59204 (EWS livery) Merehead to Acton
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/81788-the-class-59s/
 
(ii)  30 September 2011 7A09 07:12 59101 Village of Whatley (Hanson livery) Merehead to Acton Mendip Rail 'jumbo' stone train
http://www.hondawanderer.com/59101_Crofton_2011.htm
 
(iii) Captured on video
A.. 16 February 2012 7A18 59205 (EWS livery) from Acton Yard to Brentford
13.24  Depart Acton
14.09  Depart Southall
14.24  Arrived Brentford Town (Day & Sons)
 
B.  24 February 2012 6V00 59204 Vale of Glamorgan (EWS livery) Newhaven Town to Acton
04.48 Depart Newhaven Town
07.34 Arrive Acton
10.24 Depart Acton
10.58 Depart Southall
11.13 Arrive Brentford Town Day & Sons
 

 
 
Current timing ('Runs 2nd February 2016'):  748Z 1324 Acton T.C. to Brentford Town Day & Sons
WTT
1324  Depart Acton T.C.
1340  Arrive Southall T.C. (16 mins.) [Great West Road platform road]
1410  Depart Southall T.C.  (20 mins.)
1425  Arrive Brentford Town Day & Sons (15 mins)
http://www.realtimet.../02/02/advanced
 
(iv)

A. ARRIVE Acton
27 April 2011 7A17 (Q) 10:31 59204 'Vale of Glamorgan' Merehead to Acton Yard Yeoman stone hoppers
Photo PA880LD. http://www.platformart.co.uk/class59.html
 
B. RETURN Light Engine the next day
28 April 2011 59204 'Vale of Glamorgan' from Acton to Westbury.
Photo PA903LD. http://www.platformart.co.uk/class59.html
 
C. MEANWHILE
28 April 2011 6C77 12:40 59004 'Paul A Hammond' (Yeoman livery) from Acton Yard to Merehead with empty jumbo stone train

Photo PA904LD. http://www.platformart.co.uk/class59.html
 
 

 

More departures to follow and it's not all diesel.

 

[southern42]

Some more examples

 

2.  DEPARTURES from ACTON - two trains of empties (on Thursday)

(i) 23 June 2011  7C77 59205 (EWS livery) Acton to Merehead empty jumbo train
 
(ii) 23 June 2011 7C76 59206 (DB Schenker livery) Acton-Whatley empty bogie hoppers (Hanson livery)
https://www.rcts.org.uk/branches/bristol/page.htm?id=bristol/westbury%2023Jun11
 
Also on the that day: 70013 Oliver Cromwell working the Victoria to Bath and Bristol “Cathedrals Express” 
 
Check out the times and we have this.

SUMMARY: (from http://www.uksteam.info/tours/t11/t0623a.htm)
OUT
07:15 Depart  5Z88 70013 Southall WCRC
07:26 Arrive Southall WL rev (11 mins)
07:34 Depart Southall WL Diesel ECS+70013 for Victoria and Bristol Temple Meads (1Z88)  (8 mins)
 
RETURN
23:00 Depart  Victoria. Diesel, 70013 at rear
00:09 Arrive  Southall WL
00:20 Depart Southall WL  (11 mins)
00:30 Arrive Southall WCRC  (10 mins)
 
And not to forget the ARRIVAL, on the same day, of:
23 June 2011 7A15 59101 ‘Village of Whatley’  (Hanson livery) Merehead to Acton loaded bogie boxes
 
Now that was a turn up for the roads.  Just need to sort out some Acton - Brentford - Acton timings for the stone trains and I could have a nice set of movements!
BUT, so far, this all involves the platform road.  Next up, hopefully, I'll have some Southall yard occupancy.

 

 

A bit about Acton Yard that I've just picked up from Rivercider's thread  W.R. London Division freight, page 3 -Acton Yard.

By the late 80s, many of the sidings had been lifted leaving just a few long roads, and a Foster Yeoman stone terminal had set up on site.  #59

 

In the previous post Rivercider mentions a Southall yard pilot. I guess that is long gone but it's useful to know for 1961. #58

[Jock67B]

Polly,

Sorry to have been absent on the sick list for so long - haven't had time to catch up but I've seen enough to be well impressed! The careful planning now will doubtless pay dividends as your build gets under way, and I look forward to the start,

Kind regards,

Jock.

[southern42]

' Evening, Jock.  Great to see you on here.  My meanderings mainly keep me motivated but they are becoming quite helpful as, apart from having an interest in railways, my knowledge is a bit thin on the ground and the imagination needs to be kept in check.  Next step will be printing out key sections to see how they look.

[southern42]

Looks like it might be a toss up between sidings for hoppers and wagons or a preservation yard.

 

 

Real Time Trains WTTs confirm my guess work that there are light engine movements between Acton T.C. and Southall T.C..  On GWRd, trains from the mainline or the branch could be left in the sidings to be collected later.

I'm not sure, though, if modelling the use of the Southall yard would benefit GWRd.  Hoppers and wagons can stand for some time in the sidings before they are collected.  On GWRd, the sidings could end up becoming a static store of stock hiding any movement on the platform roads.  It could well destroy the impact of similar freight stock coming in, and hide the loco running round before moving off down the branch.

 

On the other hand, would a preserved yard be any better?

 

I've had another look at the preservation group to consider if it would be a feasible example for 2011?

The area would be easy to fence off and an access road could be added coming in under the road bridge terminating at the end of the old railmotor road.  This would mean that rail stock could be brought in and taken out by road.  Similarly, a gate (to the outside world) could be added to the Shed yard at the end of the Dead End road  (I'll need to bring in the Stirling Single for its West End performances so you might just see the back end of a low loader!)  This could be getting a bit more interesting.

 

So, what does the preservation group have to offer in the way of stock?

 

By 2010, Collett No. 2885 had been cosmetically restored and put on sale and displayed in Birmingham.  It was sold in 2013 and is now at Tyseley, so room for a large tender loco on GWRd is not required.  The preservation group, in housing terms, had to downsize with the heritage company taking over the lease on the Shed roads. 

 

RSH 0-4-0ST No. 7386 Saddle Tank 'Birkenhead' went out on loan.

 

9682 Pannier Tank had its boiler removed for retubing.  Modelling this could become a GWRd project at some point.

 

This looks a possibility for modelling if one of the expected models (W4) can be easily disguised as the R4 saddle tank (repainted and renamed). 

 

The potential donor: http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/locomotives/steam-locomotives/peckett-w4-0-4-0st/peckett-0-4-0t-1.html

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/103556-Hornby-announce-peckett-w4-0-4-0st/

 

The AEC 4WD was used for shunting small locos around the yard and would be ideal for running up and down GWRd's sidings with plans afoot to model it, as said before.

 

There are also various wagons and coaches to select from including GWR and LMS brake vans which I could 'borrow' from GWRd's 1961 stock.

 

 

On GRWd, the preservation group lease the yard which would be gated and fenced off from the network.  Fencing off the yard from the branch line means that stock could move about in the yard unimpeded by the movement of regular traffic, with two independent activities going on side by side, which is what appealed in some of the preservation group's videos - glimpses of mainline traffic passing on the other side of the fence!  A preservation yard would also be useful as a small self-contained section for running trains without the need to engage the rest of the layout.  In that respect, it could also double up as a handy bit of test track.

 

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gwrpg+southall

 

Having a a few small locos and a small amount of rolling stock would mainly give clear views across the yard to any action on the platform roads.

 

Whopper wagons or Little locos?  Photos coming up of some YGA/YGB Seacows.

 

[southern42]

Over the last few days, I set up half a dozen Seacows - straight from their boxes so no sign of heavy use!

 

The point of the exercise was to gauge the impact of these for GWRd branch line running and sidings.  Camel Quay has 3 adjacent station tracks so I could play around with various formations.  I left CQ's stock (a loco and a pair of coaches on the station roads, a van C and a SR van in the bay) in place to give an additional idea of scale.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

At 2 hoppers per foot, they are pretty impressive and certainly change the atmosphere of the layout.  It is clear, though, that a rake of hoppers could hide any train movement behind.  Anyway, I'm not put off buying the longer JGA RMC hoppers or JHAs if they become available in the future.  Quite the opposite!

 

[southern42]

Looking at the scale of things, messing about with "rolling stock" in AnyRail again, googling more internet videos, and doing a bit more finding out and revisiting (freight workings and ownership, wagons and liveries, yards and routes), I have...wait for it...decided...to go for..

the freight yard.

 

This was heavily influenced by noting that DB Schenker (2011) runs Southall Yard as well as Acton Yard so a good excuse to supply GWRd with plenty of EWS wagons and locos.

 

Also...

To ease the curves a bit, I've gone back to a short parcels bay and moved the platform back.

 

 

Track plan, below.  The two locos would not run at the same time but illustrated here to show train movements:

First loco

66135 takes out a ballast train under the footbridge (to one of the questionable curves but this one will  be either off scene or obscured).

 

Second loco

Version 1.  Coming in from the main line, and after running round its train, 66085 shunts the loaded ash train into the sidings then picks up the empty hoppers in the yard for the main line.  The loaded ash train will be taken down the branch later.

Version 2  66085 takes the loaded ash train down the branch, returns light engine and picks up the empty hoppers for the main line.

Version 3  OK. You can have a go...!