Great West Road - transfers & I’m not talking football!

[Sasquatch]

Hi Polly.

Behind 9791 are Br diagram 1/108 or 1/117 (Bachmann),
BR 13ton HIGHBARFIT dia.1/039 (Parkside PC02A),
The third is I think a GWR bogie well wagon. Mainline & Bachmann made a bogie well wagon.
Forth judging by the deeper top two planks looks like LNER 6plank dia.9. (no kit that I'm aware of, shame as the LNER built over 20,000! (Cambrian do a very nice
        NE 8plank though).
The next four are all welded steel opens like the first one but.........
...... the next is without the top doors! so could be of LNER or LMS origin (Cambrian again!)
Last one in the picture could be an ex private owner 7 plank with new top planks and door.

Regards Shaun (total wagon nerd does it show?)

Edited November 9, 2014 by Sasquatch

[Jaz]

Hi Polly.

 

Behind 9791 are Br diagram 1/108 or 1/117 (Bachmann),

BR 13ton HIGHBARFIT dia.1/039 (Parkside PC02A),

The third is I think a GWR bogie well wagon. Mainline & Bachmann made a bogie well wagon.

Forth judging by the deeper top two planks looks like LNER 6plank dia.9. (no kit that I'm aware of, shame as the LNER built over 20,000! (Cambrian do a very nice

        NE 8plank though).

The next four are all welded steel opens like the first one but.........

...... the next is without the top doors! so could be of LNER or LMS origin (Cambrian again!)

Last one in the picture could be an ex private owner 7 plank with new top planks and door.

 

Regards Shaun (total wagon nerd does it show?)

Yes.....      .......

[southern42]

Hi Polly.

 

Behind 9791 are Br diagram 1/108 or 1/117 (Bachmann),

BR 13ton HIGHBARFIT dia.1/039 (Parkside PC02A),

The third is I think a GWR bogie well wagon. Mainline & Bachmann made a bogie well wagon.

Forth judging by the deeper top two planks looks like LNER 6plank dia.9. (no kit that I'm aware of, shame as the LNER built over 20,000! (Cambrian do a very nice

        NE 8plank though).

The next four are all welded steel opens like the first one but.........

...... the next is without the top doors! so could be of LNER or LMS origin (Cambrian again!)

Last one in the picture could be an ex private owner 7 plank with new top planks and door.

 

Regards Shaun (total wagon nerd does it show?)

 

 

Yes.....      .......

 

 

:sungum: :sungum:

Many thanks, Shaun.  Absolutely delighted.  All but one googled and added to my wishlist. 

I'll have to shorten the rake of wagons but hopefully, I'll have variety enough to create the right look.

 

I said, all but one.  Has anyone any ideas what I could use for the ex-PO wagon and what it would be for? As it would be empty, I'm thinking  weathering, here.

 

Polly

[Sasquatch]

Hi Polly.

 

Glad to be of assistance.

 

The closest thing to the LNER 6plk would be a 7plank, Parkside PC69!

This could work for the PO wagon too. If it's a bit of variety you want try a Bachmann version. Their M.O.Y. coke wagon represents one of these wagons in it's BR form with some printed "new planks" and the BR black panel applied over the M.O.Y. livery with heavy weathering! Not all the old stock received a coat of battleship grey!!

 

You got me thinking about the crocodile wagon (I have three!) . Much could be done to the RTR model to improve it and the possibility of weird loads is limited only by ones imagination.   

[southern42]

I've finally started an Index on the first post.

While I was going through the topics, I came to an unanswered question.
 

I was over on Lunester Lounge and admiring Sandside's loco groupings and the possible appearance of some those locos. #3651
 
And, as you do, my thoughts turned to my own possible locos, in particular Class 33, prolific in 2011 but what about the 1960s?  There doesn't appear to have been any stabled at Southall, but it so happens, they did go there.  In 1963, according to the Derby Sulzers website, below, Type 3's were working to Southall on the Fawley - Denham oil tanks.  So, refinery in Hamshire to where?  Who took the oil once it got to Southall / Denham? 
 
http://www.derbysulzers.com/class33.html
 
.
Cut........

 
The site of the depot was not determined back then.
I now gather that there was a siding at Denham South Junction and a tanker depot (1942-1964).  I can't find anything about it though.
http://edithsstreets.blogspot.co.uk/2009/10/londonbuckinghamshire-border-denham_30.html
 
There is a map of the junction but siding(s) are not shown. Top left inset Uxbridge-Denham, South Junction lying north at the bottom of the wye.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Harrow%2C_Neasden%2C_Northholt_%26_Northholt_Road_RJD_145.jpg

 

Polly

[southern42]

Hi Polly.

 

Glad to be of assistance.

 

The closest thing to the LNER 6plk would be a 7plank, Parkside PC69!

This could work for the PO wagon too. If it's a bit of variety you want try a Bachmann version. Their M.O.Y. coke wagon represents one of these wagons in it's BR form with some printed "new planks" and the BR black panel applied over the M.O.Y. livery with heavy weathering! Not all the old stock received a coat of battleship grey!!

 

You got me thinking about the crocodile wagon (I have three!) . Much could be done to the RTR model to improve it and the possibility of weird loads is limited only by ones imagination.   

 

Thanks, Shaun.

 

I shall look out for the Parkside kits. They have an extensive exhibition diary so should come across them somewhere.

I was wondering about an alternative to the MOY wagon.  The Gas Light and Coke Company (absorbed the Brentford Gas Company 1926) was nationalised and became the North Thames Gas Board - wagon available as Dapol 4F-090-003 9 Plank Coke Wagon The Gas Light & Coke Co in light grey.  Perhaps one (or more) of these would be more appropriate painted over in BR bauxite (letters just becoming visible again).  Views on this?

 

The crocodile is available RTR but would look great with that added construction built on top.  Am I right in thinking that they are bolts at each end of the well of the chassis holding it on?

 

Polly

[ChrisN]

Polly,

I assume that you know about Parkside's web site

 

(Stating the obvious because sometimes it isn't.)

[Sasquatch]

Repainting RTR is often over looked as a means of achieving great models Polly. The BR black panels can be done quite neatly with permanent markers.
 
The details on the "croc" could be done with 15 thou plastic sheet with rivets/bolts etc punched with a blunt point from the rear.

Cambrian models also do a range of wagon bogies!

 

Squatch 

[southern42]

1961 goods train Brentford-Southall
Date 28 October 1961
Time of arrival at Southall?

BUT, before you all shout out the answer, a little preamble.

 

The photo shows the 13.15 Paddington - Hereford express passing with 4-6-0 7006 'Lydford Castle'.

But what time at Southall?

Look no further!  According to "British Locomotive Practice and Performance" in The Railway Magazine June 1956 (pp. 395-399)

[i photocopied these pages at work before I retired - I haven't got a secret pile of TRM stashed away somewhere, in case you're asking.    ],

the Paddington-Bristol train (Castle Class) had a scheduled time of 11mins.  On a timed run, 5040 Stokesey Castle, with a load of 7 coaches, had a recorded time of 10mins 38secs.

 

In comparison, on the UP trains:

Bristol-Paddington (Castle Class), with scheduled time Southall-Paddington of 14mins, 7015 Carn Brea Castle had a recorded time of 10.27.

Oxford-Paddington (Hall Class) with a schedule time of 11¹/₂mins, 6939 Calveley Hall had a recorded time of 10mins 09secs.

 

Taking these times into consideration and barring anything untoward, the arrival time of 9791 goods at the footbridge steps would be around 13.25³/₄ or at least, that's what Harry Potter on 5972 Olton Hall reckons. 

 

Now that train and loco movements, which could be modelled on GWRd, seem to be emerging, I've had another look at A.E. Abear's Through the Links at Southall and Old Oak Common because, here, there are line positions of trains between Hayes (Southall) to Reading on every hour of the day in1955 and a table of Shed workings for 1956.  There are also later tables indicating Brentford and Southall workings to and from Old Oak Common and Acton which I shall also use to compile some comings and goings.  I do despair sometimes, though, for while loco class, wheel arrangement and class code are noted, it merely says "diesel" or "DMU" for the other breed.  I often wonder if books on the various diesels just refer to Kings, Castles, Halls, prairies and panniers as  "steam locomotives." Oops, just admitted that I'm rather short on diesel books.   

 

After washing my mouth out, I'll draw up a table of how these comings and goings might look for GWRd.  Some things, including times and number and type of trains and locos, would have been different by 1961(-1965) and will be followed up in due course but, at the moment, I'm more concerned with getting a feel for Great West Road's existence and getting to know what's inside our growing library so that when the layout build goes ahead (target start date 2015), I have an idea of what I want to achieve.

 

One of my favourite photos is of two pannier tanks on the bridge over The Ham of a round spectacled 57xx and a square windowed 8750.*  The pair won't appear together on GWRd in 1961.  All, 81C's allocation of the 57xx were withdrawn by then  

*  Photo on Disused Stations Brentford Dock  (also in Brentford Dock and Railway by Diana Willment)

 

Edit: add word to clarify.

Edit 2: Did anyone spot the deliberate mistake?  Corrected @ 1809.

Edited November 14, 2014 by southern42

[southern42]

Polly,

I assume that you know about Parkside's web site

 

(Stating the obvious because sometimes it isn't.)

I do, Chris, but thanks for posting the link, I've used it several times already.   

 

 

Repainting RTR is often over looked as a means of achieving great models Polly. The BR black panels can be done quite neatly with permanent markers.

 

The details on the "croc" could be done with 15 thou plastic sheet with rivets/bolts etc punched with a blunt point from the rear.

 

Cambrian models also do a range of wagon bogies!

 

Squatch 

 

Thanks, Squatch.

I've now got a list of wagons on my (Santa) Wishlist.

Your comment about repainting made me see sense.  If I'm going to do a repaint job, anyway, I might as well get the up to date version of the coke wagon with NEM sockets, etc. So I've added the MOY wagon to the list to relabel and repaint as The Gas Light & Coke Co.

Many thanks, Shaun.  You've been a great help.

 

Polly

[southern42]

 

Thanks, Squatch.

I've now got a list of wagons on my (Santa) Wishlist.

Your comment about repainting made me see sense.  If I'm going to do a repaint job, anyway, I might as well get the up to date version of the coke wagon with NEM sockets, etc. So I've added the MOY wagon to the list to relabel and repaint as The Gas Light & Coke Co.

Many thanks, Shaun.  You've been a great help.

 

Polly

 

If you're all wondering why I simply don't get the Cambrian kit and start afresh...

Well...umm...if you saw how many kits I've already accumulated you wouldn't ask. 

 

From now till the end of January, Camel Quay will demand most of my attention.  After that, I hope to be able to devote more time to GWRd.  And as a start, I bulldosed the shed mock-up today - I decided it was too short.  Having seen some superb 2 loco length sheds on layouts, I think that's the way to go.   Ooohhh....lots of those large black vents....  which were pretty useless, apparently!  The wall that divides the diesel roads from the steam roads didn't exist in 1961.  Does anyone know when it was put up, by any chance?  Of course, I could plough through my accumulation of pics....and note the dates until I find which year....

 

Polly

Edited November 14, 2014 by southern42

[southern42]

Branch line station signalling, track and points.

 

1965.

 

6106, on the Thames Valley Tour, stands in the Brentford branch line platform:

http://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/GWR-and-BRW/GWR-other-tank-engines/i-jMFqPsS/2/L/W_BR_6106_25-7-65_GWRA110706-L.jpg

 

The signal on the platform caught my attention so I had a look at maps and track diagrams, again.  Diagrams in the Shed books don't go much beyond the footbridge so they don't provide help with the station building end. 

 

My original intention for GWRd was a passing loop and two sidings coming off the branch line, all roads terminating beyond the road bridge making it a BLT layout.

 

Going back in time, the 1914 OS map shows a passing loop with terminal shunt between the main line and lines to the south sidings.  http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/southall/index1.shtml

 

On this 1962 map, http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/southall/index2.shtml, there's a significant change with what looks like (to my novice eyes) a single or double slip under the road bridge.  This would open up a different possibility if GWRd had a fiddle yard beyond the road bridge.

Any clarification on the 1962 track and signalling would be much appreciated.

 

1983.  In a photo of the waste train there isn't a point under the road bridge anymore but presumably the track leads out onto the main line rather than an end stop - 7th picture down on this page: http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/southall/index0.shtml

 

Today, its easy to see the relief roads join the mainline about ¹/₂ mile (800m) west of the road bridge on google map.  Dig that birds eye view of the gasometer and its long shadow!

Google satellite view 2014 : https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5057256,-0.3781807,93m/data=!3m1!1e3

[Clicking on  "Explore" (bottom right) hides the street photos along the bottom.  Handy if viewing on a small screen]

 

 

The changing face of the branch and mainline platforms can be seen on the web pages of Disused Stations, Southall, and if you like the current steam railmotor No. 93, there are a couple of pics of that in there, now, too! 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/southall/

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/southall/index0.shtml

 

 

Thanks for reading.

 

Polly

 

[southern42]

Late posting last night because I made the mistake of watching TV or rather, putting on a DVD because there wasn't anything on TV to watch.

Remember the Christmas when everyone gave you HMV tokens which became invalid, then valid again?

With mine I bought a 6-volume set The Best of Steam Trains.  We decided on The South West, expecting an hour of the North Cornwall Railway.

 

But blow me down!  There were visits to Western sheds beginning with Southall. 

It didn't mention that in the blurb.  Had it done so, I would have dug the video out a whole lot sooner!

 

The clip wasn't very long but I shall have to play it again....and take note of what's happening.

 

Polly

Edited November 18, 2014 by southern42

[Jaz]

Late posting last night because I made the mistake of watching TV or rather, putting on a DVD because there wasn't anything on TV to watch.

Remember the Christmas when everyone gave you HMV tokens which became invalid, then valid again?

With mine I bought a 6-volume set The Best of Steam Trains.  We decided on The South West, expecting an hour of the North Cornwall Railway.

 

But blow me down!  There were visits to Western sheds beginning with Southall. 

It didn't mention that in the blurb.  Had it done so, I would have dug the video out a whole lot sooner!

 

The clip wasn't very long but I shall have to play it again....and take note of what's happening.

 

Polly

Stuff you come across by accident....that you have previously hunted for.....is always a real BONUS.

[The Stationmaster]

Polly,

 

Like many other places Southall has a long history of layout changes.  There were some in 1950 (about which I know nothing), possibly some in the early - mid 1960s (where the best source would be Tony Cooke's volume - if you can find a copy).

 

Then for resignalling in May 1968p see here -

 

http://www.signallingnotices.org.uk/scans/34/1968%20-%20LXO%20100%20Old%20Oak%20Common%20Stage%207.pdf

 

Then for resignalling in 1995 when my 'higher speed' layout was put in which was intended to allow faster moves to/from the Goods Lines at Southall West Jcn and east Station and simplify the connection to the Brentford branch, at about the same time the Coke Road was removed (next to the Down Main) to make space for ohle structures - current volume of Quail is the best available source.

 

Hope that helps explain some of the changes 

Edited November 18, 2014 by The Stationmaster

[southern42]

Polly,

 

Like many other places Southall has a long history of layout changes.  There were some in 1950 (about which I know nothing), possibly some in the early - mid 1960s (where the best source would be Tony Cooke's volume - if you can find a copy).

 

Then for resignalling in May 1968p see here -

 

http://www.signallingnotices.org.uk/scans/34/1968%20-%20LXO%20100%20Old%20Oak%20Common%20Stage%207.pdf

 

Then for resignalling in 1995 when my 'higher speed' layout was put in which was intended to allow faster moves to/from the Goods Lines at Southall West Jcn and east Station and simplify the connection to the Brentford branch, at about the same time the Coke Road was removed (next to the Down Main) to make space for ohle structures - current volume of Quail is the best available source.

 

Hope that helps explain some of the changes 

 

Many thanks, Mike.

The Tony Cooke volume - is that the Banbury Direct to Old Oak Common (Track Layout Diagrams, GWR & BR(WR) V.26) I need?  The London one (V. 25) contains Ealing-Paddinton so doesn't appear to go down to Southall.

 

I knew Southall lost the West Southall signal box but the pdf puts the whole signalling thing into perspective, so I'm delighted you've added the link for that.

 

I also hadn't realised that the coke road had been disconnected even though I knew there wasn't a track down the side of the shed in recent years! A simple case of not joining up the bits of info!   Doh!

 

I've found the Quail book (3) so will get that.

 

Of course, when it comes to building GWRd, I'll need a layout that works in the space available, but knowing what has gone before and why should help tremendously.

 

Polly

[The Stationmaster]

Polly,

 

The Tony Cooke book which covers Southal is Volume 24, Lower Thames Valley, Reading to West Ealing (inclusive) including branches.  I haven't got a clue where you might be able to get one as it is years out of print and Lightmoor seem to have stopped republishing them (I think is a staff resource thing but as ever I shall ask them at Warley what the future holds.  I know Tony has been working on a massive tome about private sidings in South Wales but I understood last year it was fairly complete so he might get back to these with luck as they area  superb resource.  Regrettably when they first came out years ago I couldn't afford them and have only, thus far, got hold of those that have been revised and republshed).  Alas my various (original) signalbox  diagrams do not include Southall East Station although I have got the office copy of Southall East Jcn

 

List here

 

http://lightmoor.co.uk/category.php?page=3&section=Track%20Plans

[southern42]

Polly,

 

The Tony Cooke book which covers Southal is Volume 24, Lower Thames Valley, Reading to West Ealing (inclusive) including branches.  I haven't got a clue where you might be able to get one as it is years out of print and Lightmoor seem to have stopped republishing them (I think is a staff resource thing but as ever I shall ask them at Warley what the future holds.  I know Tony has been working on a massive tome about private sidings in South Wales but I understood last year it was fairly complete so he might get back to these with luck as they area  superb resource.  Regrettably when they first came out years ago I couldn't afford them and have only, thus far, got hold of those that have been revised and republshed).  Alas my various (original) signalbox  diagrams do not include Southall East Station although I have got the office copy of Southall East Jcn

 

List here

 

http://lightmoor.co.uk/category.php?page=3&section=Track%20Plans

 

I hope you had a good day at Warley, Mike.  We decided to go at the last minute but had 1!/2hrs knocked off our time there because a train in front of us tangled with a traffic cone.  Still enjoyed it but a rather hasty dash round.

 

If there's no news on the Lower Thames Valley front, I see that MMRS (Manchester Model Railway Society) Library has a copy.  They may be able to help.

 

Polly

[The Stationmaster]

I hope you had a good day at Warley, Mike.  We decided to go at the last minute but had 1!/2hrs knocked off our time there because a train in front of us tangled with a traffic cone.  Still enjoyed it but a rather hasty dash round.

 

If there's no news on the Lower Thames Valley front, I see that MMRS (Manchester Model Railway Society) Library has a copy.  They may be able to help.

 

Polly

Pretty good day thanks Polly - but no news from Lightmoor on anything by Tony Cooke alas.

[southern42]

Some Warley pics.  Mostly, grabbed on the hoof trying to see as much as possible on a shortened day.

 

Not when you're avyn to get up at 04:30 to catch the 06:01 train.

 

Western Glory

Tanks - Must remember to take my tank to the weathering stand.

 

Waton

 

 

Old Elms Road

 

More later...

 

Polly

[southern42]

More Warley.

 

Lonstoke West

...tanks...yes, must remember...weathering stand...

 

 

 

Kepier Colliery

 

One of the two centre pieces.  My pic of the coach didn't come out too well, so just the loco.

 

Alloa

 

 

34047 Callington running through Blandford Forum.

On second thoughts, it looks like 34042 Dorchester.

 

More to come...

Edited November 23, 2014 by southern42

[Andrew P]

Hi Polly, obviously you and Ray had a good Day, and just what DID YOU BUY?

[southern42]

And to finish.

 

Now we're talking... [Edit: Lord of the Isles]

 

A bit of Downunder at Dawes Creek, Australia.

 

A jammy shot of Little Histon.

 

A time remembered at Clarendon.

 

 

I had to get Ray to reach up to capture this little beauty - Clarendon's steam railmotor.

 

Dainton Bank

 

Want one!

 

First jam, now chocolate...

 

A trip out west to Trenance

 

and east to Germany.

 

...mustn't forget the weathering...

 

A lot of my photos were of very poor quality - light flare and bad focus mainly.  For you, I've selected the best photos.

Edited November 23, 2014 by southern42

[southern42]

Weathering...Made it!

And Ray went off to buy a book!

All done by the time he got back.

 

 

Many thanks, Baz.  A great job.

More photos when I've added some everyday weathering.

 

 

The wagon is for Camel Quay but, now I know how Baz does the tarry bit, I shall be on the lookout for some tanks for Great West Road as Southall Gas Works distilled tar.  Can anyone help out here?

 

The Gas Light and Coke Company (GLCC), formerly the Brentford Gas Company, became the North Thames Gas Board when the industry was nationalised.  Were tar tanks used at Southall and did they carry North Thames Gas Board livery?

 

Below are links to tanks at Beckton Gas Works, Newham on the other side of London. 

http://www.newhamstory.com/node/1426?size=_original

http://www.newhamstory.com/node/1428

 

 

Polly

Edited November 23, 2014 by southern42

[Barry O]

Polly

Out may need to add more ink as tar seems to spread...and a little dust as well as it attracts dirt...

Nice photos..some very clean milk tankers in them.

Baz