Ceptic Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Hi Frank, Is there anything you haven't a picture of?! A great help to see the picture, which confirms what I thought; the drawings show the windows much too 'square' at the corners. Mike King's drawing does show the door drop lights correctly with a lower bottom edge than the fixed panes either side. This is a detail I got wrong on my Bulleid 2 HAPs - grrr. All the best, Colin Colin, Dom't forget dasatcopthorne's pics on your 2-HAP build. http://www.rmweb.co....attach_id=51757 Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 16, 2012 Author Share Posted October 16, 2012 Colin, Dom't forget dasatcopthorne's pics pics on your 2-HAP build. http://www.rmweb.co....attach_id=51757 Cheers. Oh Dear! I'm having to be reminded of my own topic's content. Must be all the superglue last night.... Thanks Frank. Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 16, 2012 Author Share Posted October 16, 2012 When I've done this (I think I was using a 20 thou top covering 1.5mm-ish holes), all looked well at first, but after a while, telltale dimples appeared on the top surface where the holes were located, so I think the drilling holes method is definitely tempting fate with a 10 thou top surface. The amount of solvent used seems to be a critical factor. When laminating sheets, I now generally favour scrawking them with fine grooves in an attempt to provide some solvent-venting routes. Thanks for the tips Miss prism. I'm still looking for those dimpled areas! What I intend to do re. laminating, is have vertical strips of 20 thou. no wider than approx. 6mm, backed with horizontals of 10 thou. sheet. I am hoping that this will create enough gaps for any trapped solvent to escape. I have have been very frugal with the solvent and all is well 24 hrs later with the test piece. It could be a while before I am sure the construction is stable though. Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold griffgriff Posted October 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 16, 2012 Limonene Plastic Solvent is the stuff you want for laminating ... lovely stuff and it smell nice too (of lemons that is!) Cheers Griff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Godfrey Glyn Posted October 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 16, 2012 Many moons ago I remember talking to the guy who brought out a plastic kit of a Mk 1 Full Brake - Railway King was the brand name. He said that when he scaled the actual radius of the window corners to 4 mm scale they looked far too tight and he had to increase the radius to make the windows look right. Have you found this Colin? Or perhaps it was his pattern maker covering up for a mistake! Colin your threads are quite simply outstanding and I really think you ought to be thinking of a book, I am sure it would be a best seller and a future classic! Many thanks for showing us how it should and can be done! Godfrey Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lofty1966 Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Just polished my leather chair and pumped the cushion to make myself comfy whilst reading the build thread........No pressure Colin..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 16, 2012 Author Share Posted October 16, 2012 Limonene Plastic Solvent is the stuff you want for laminating ... lovely stuff and it smell nice too (of lemons that is!) Cheers Griff Thanks Griff, Are you saying that the Limonene solvent doen't cause these solvent pockets? If so, I shall try and find some. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 16, 2012 Author Share Posted October 16, 2012 Many moons ago I remember talking to the guy who brought out a plastic kit of a Mk 1 Full Brake - Railway King was the brand name. He said that when he scaled the actual radius of the window corners to 4 mm scale they looked far too tight and he had to increase the radius to make the windows look right. Have you found this Colin? Or perhaps it was his pattern maker covering up for a mistake! Colin your threads are quite simply outstanding and I really think you ought to be thinking of a book, I am sure it would be a best seller and a future classic! Many thanks for showing us how it should and can be done! Godfrey Hi Godfrey, That is an interesting anecdote re. model windows. Perhaps we just see what we expect to see. In the case of the plans I have, they are drawn too tight at approx. 3" scale radius instead of the 4.5" that Ceptic states. On the work featured, the window corners were radiused with a round section needle file using the fattest end, which is 3mm in diameter - or a scale 9". Thanks too for the comments re. writing a book(!). All that I know about these things and including all the mistakes are here to be seen on RMweb. Search for Bulleid 2 HAP or 2 HAL in this section of the forum and these is the 4 CIG topic in 'Modifying and Detailing RTR Models'. It's warts and all stuff including some near-libellous comments on the accuracy of several products! All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 16, 2012 Author Share Posted October 16, 2012 Just polished my leather chair and pumped the cushion to make myself comfy whilst reading the build thread........No pressure Colin..... Hi lofty 1966, No pressure?! Gulp! The last build was pressure enough, this one was meant to be a relaxing iterim project. Now I find myself worrying about melting plastic and invisible joins. Tonight I have decided to take some time off and go down the pub for a half with a mate. Possibly best not to handle the old Swann-Morton afterwards. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Hi Colin. I hope these measurements make sense ? They are based on those taken when compiling drawings of extraenious Bulleid, multi-door, loco hauled stock,. back in the late '70s .The width of the corridor side main-lights depend on the width of the compartments + partitions. I'm afraid I don't have any reliable, 'Tin' HAL, references to these*. Another recommended book would be the MRC Planbook No.1. The 4-SUBs' front ends are included. *Otherwise, my finger's on the pulse. Have a pint fer me. Cheers, Frank. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 They must have made thousands of those doors! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 They must have made thousands of those doors! Yep, I reckon so. I paid a visit to an Eastleigh Open Day, many moons ago, when the Carriage Shop was still going hammer & tongs. Outside was a 6' high x 12' long stack of 'em. Whilst, inside, by the presses, were examples, of the, stage by stage, Std. Mk.1 door production. I had my tape measure handy, unfortunately, no camera. Regards, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Just added this to the links page on the Southern Electrics forum http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/41640-southern-electrics-forum-and-other-useful-links/&do=findComment&comment=446817. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Hi Colin. I hope these measurements make sense ? They are based on those taken when compiling drawings of extraenious Bulleid, multi-door, loco hauled stock,. back in the late '70s .The width of the corridor side main-lights depend on the width of the compartments + partitions. I'm afraid I don't have any reliable, 'Tin' HAL, references to these*. Another recommended book would be the MRC Planbook No.1. The 4-SUBs' front ends are included. *Otherwise, my finger's on the pulse. Have a pint fer me. Cheers, Frank. Hi Frank, The photo you have posted with the dimensions has been very useful. The Mike King drawing is bang on in all measurements. As for the large corridor lights, I shall use the same principal (as do both drawings in my possesion), that their width is equal to each corresponding pair of lights on the opposite compartment side. This would give their measurements as : 3 @ 4' 6", 1 @ 3' 9" and 3 @ 3'3" - or as near as I can cut them! Please correct me if that seems wrong. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 The burning of the midnight lamp: The sides are underway. This shot shows the marking out of the motor coach sides. The Mike King plan has been trimmed down to fit the cutting mat. Drawing in the 'verticals' for the windows is done as usual by lining up the plan and plastic with the bottom edge of the mat. It is then just a simple matter of sliding the 'T' shaped ruler along the edge of the mat and marking things in with a pencil. Thanks to Ceptic, the windows should come out the right size. (That's 'should' with a capital 'S'.) Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 19, 2012 Author Share Posted October 19, 2012 Tonight it's the Parks version of 'The Great British Bake-Off' . I shall be making roofs in the oven! Now, the first time I posted pictures of the former used it was quite popular, so I am showing it again. This is the new improved forming method. There are removeable sides on the female part which should keep the edges straight. In the past, it was case of pressing the edges until they set as the sides were a bit shallow. They have to be removable as the original depth is exactly right for the finished height of the roof section. It is a simple matter to clamp the moulded roof and trim the sides by running a knife carefully along the edge when the removeable parts are off. The female part of the former is now screwed to a hefty piece of oak. When I tried the assembly first of all without this, there was an ominous cracking noise as the female side was splayed by the plastic sheet as it was pressed down by the force of the clamps. After my last experiences (or should I say burns), I will be using two sets of clamps. This will allow the former to be clamped up after the first 'baking' with cold clamps. 'G' clamps fresh form the oven and piping hot are best avoided, believe me. The sides have reached this stage: All fixed windows are cut. I am still pondering how to proceed with the drop-lights which need to be backed with 10 thou. from behind. Cutting through two layers at once could be fraught with difficulties: solvent melting the laminated sides, areas around the window openings not being completly welded together which will only show up when cutting and the fact that I now realise cutting 10 thou. sheet is actually quite easy and far more fun than chopping away at 20 thou. stuff. Tregaron Fire Brigade remain on standby......... Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 21, 2012 Author Share Posted October 21, 2012 An unflatteringly close-up view of part of the motor coach sides. The window apertures are now all cut out in the top layer of 10 thou. sheet for both trailer and motor coach. I had said I was pondering the next step in constrution of the sides. It seemed best - although not quickest to cut the door droplights and toplights before adding the second layer of 10 thou. backing to this area. It has the advantage that the straight-topped droplight frame can be cut into the second layer and if things go well, the toplight can be cut smaller on the second layer to represent the toplight window frame. (Not sure about this last bit, because the frame should be behind the glazing. If it looks wrong on the first example, the toplights will just be opened out to the external dimensions. All the cutting has been done, as close as I can, with reference to Ceptic's most usefully dimensioned photo. It has proved best not to cut across the corners of the windows to aid cutting out. This led to some tearing of the plastic due to wayward cuts near the corners. What works best is to cut horizontals and verticals then. with the tip of the knife blade, carefully move the work around in a semi-circle to produce the radiused corners. This isn't too risky an operation as the tip of the blade is held steady in the cutting mat. The corners are then refined with a round needle file. Very little pressure is needed ans it's more a case of twisting the file between the fingers to make the window shape required. The view through the magnifying lamp lens takes some getting used to, as the convex lens distorts all the marking out except immediately dead-centre. I think it is about x3.5 magnification and I couldn't do without it. Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vac_basher Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Wow! To cut out all those windows.... I envy your patience!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Hi Colin. In Holland at mo but have built a tin hal and have a bit of info plus a side on shot of the roof of a d/t. Will post again on Mon or Tuesday Cheers Dave Smith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 21, 2012 Author Share Posted October 21, 2012 Hi Colin. In Holland at mo but have built a tin hal and have a bit of info plus a side on shot of the roof of a d/t. Will post again on Mon or Tuesday Cheers Dave Smith Hi Dave, Any information gratefully received. As usual, I am building a model without all the details being clear. I have a Mike King drawing which is very much better than others I have used in the past. The exact distance between the roof gutters eludes me. It seems to be about a scale 7ft between the vertical parts of the gutters, which appear to be 'L' section. Any roof photos would be good. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Hi Colin. Re :- Door top-lights. These were recessed to act as a ventilator, allowing air in, or out, around the periphery. Some of the early works pics of building the prototype 4-SUBs show the doors having two semi-circular inset scoops, in place of the top-light, whilst the early loco-hauled stock were flush glazed. Some sort of trial run, I would guess, as both were later retro fitted with the agreed design. These pics might help to illustrate my banter. Loco hauled stock 4-SUB Regards, Ceptic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 Hi Frank, Thanks for posting those pictures of the door top light. I can now see what is going on in that area. Funny, but at first glance these units seem to have a very smooth surface. On closer inspection there are all these tricky little details. Representing the toplight inner frame is a hard job: looking at your dimensioned drawing, the measurement of three quarters of an inch equates to 10 thou. in 4mm. With 34 of them to do, if I can't get it neat enough it will be a feature that will have to be ignored. The other really fiendish bit is the lips over the tops of the doors which protrude just slightly from what I can see. That is going to be fun to model! All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 I really should be working, but couldn't resist a couple of minutes of chopping: With a new, sharp knife blade, the task of cutting the top light and door droplight frame ws not too odious. Still some tidying up to do, especially to the r/h bottom corner of the droplight, but there is hope. This picture was taken in such a close-up position that all the horizontal lines are bowed - honest! The door area to the left has been blanked off from behind with 10 thou. sheet (as have all the doors) in preparation for this procedure. Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted October 22, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 22, 2012 Colin, which blades and handles (presumably Swann-Morton) do you use for the fine work? I ask because the recommended handle/blades for cutting coach sides in Jenkinson's plasticard coaches book is the Swann-Morton metal handle with the two knurled knobs which uses a slightly stiffer blade than the SM 'surgical' type (3s and 4s) which are more bendy (and breakable!). Very fine work there! I tried it once following an article by ERH (Teddy) Francis in a 70s MRC on plasticard GW coaches if a little unsuccessfully! I tried it in 7mm with better success. I still have the sides somewhere! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Hi Dave, Any information gratefully received. As usual, I am building a model without all the details being clear. I have a Mike King drawing which is very much better than others I have used in the past. The exact distance between the roof gutters eludes me. It seems to be about a scale 7ft between the vertical parts of the gutters, which appear to be 'L' section. Any roof photos would be good. All the best, Colin Hi Colin. I've just got round to measuring "VE"'s 4-SUB drawings in the MRC Planbook. The rain water strips/angles are drawn at 30mm.(Scale 7'-6") apart, approx. in line with the outer edges of the cab's front windows. I should've referred to this book when the earlier build question of the 'original' 2-HAL's domed ends arose. My first signs of 'Alcoholic Amnesia', perhaps ? Cheers, Ceptic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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