rob D2 Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Hi, Having heard alot about early 47 radiators and later serck shutters I don't really understand. I compared my bachy 47035 of late 70s to 47474 RES 90s , and the roof on each appears identical, am I missing something ?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted October 26, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 26, 2012 One of these has Serck shutters and the other one hasn't so I was reliably (?) informed when I took this photo. I think I can see a difference in the roof thingies but, being a steam man, I haven't really got a clue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Most of the Class 47 were built without the shutters, but all were converted/built with them by the time blue livery was introduced, so a late 70's should be the same as a 90's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cb900f Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Phil, They have both got Serck radiator shutters. The shutters are in the open position on the rear loco. They are the 2 black squares in the roof side (back cab) adjacent to the guy in the blue T shirt. The shutters are closed on the front loco and are the 2 panels in the roof side immediately behind the front cab. When built there were 3 fixed panels exactly the same in design as the rest of the panels down the roof side. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopardml2341 Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Hi, Having heard alot about early 47 radiators and later serck shutters I don't really understand. I compared my bachy 47035 of late 70s to 47474 RES 90s , and the roof on each appears identical, am I missing something ?? Have a look at a Bachmann 47148 for instance and the difference will become apparent................... Google Images Bachmann 47148 and they're there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted October 26, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 26, 2012 Phil, They have both got Serck radiator shutters. The shutters are in the open position on the rear loco. They are the 2 black squares in the roof side (back cab) adjacent to the guy in the blue T shirt. The shutters are closed on the front loco and are the 2 panels in the roof side immediately behind the front cab. When built there were 3 fixed panels exactly the same in design as the rest of the panels down the roof side. Pete Of course, I meant to say that they both have Se.... Told you I was a steam man Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted October 26, 2012 Author Share Posted October 26, 2012 Ah ok, thanks guys. I used to have '148, but currently updating 2 x 035, currently running as '029 and 119 to 121 and 146 in 1991 condition. Confused ? I am ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Flying Pig Posted October 27, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 27, 2012 Phil, this (steam era) picture shows a Brush Type 4 as built without Serck shutters: the radiators are at the near end and there are three fixed grilles at the shoulder. The radiators are in the same place on the green 47 in your picture and the moveable slats of the Serck shutters form two obviously flat panels against the curve of the roof. They open and shut automatically to control the coolant temperature. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted October 27, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 27, 2012 but all were converted/built with them by the time blue livery was introduced, Before anybody gets hold of the wrong end of the stick, a decent number of Rail Blue Brush 4's did exist without Serck shutters. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
slilley Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 The reasons for the original 3 position fixed grilles and the later movable 2 position grilles are all bound up in the equiping of Brush Type 4s with air brakes. I hope the following from the book "Class 47: 50 Years of Locomotive History will help understanding of what happened and when. As part of the initial development work for the ‘Liner Trains’ (or ‘Freightliners’ as they later became known), authority was given by BR's Technical Committee in March 1963 for the fitting of air brake equipment to 10 locomotives. This was to be installed retrospectively in five English Electric Type 4s and in five new Brush Type 4s during construction. The estimated cost for the Brush-built locomotives was £3,000 each. In April 1964, No D1758 was the first Brush-built locomotive to be fitted with what became known as Mk1 Auto Air Brake equipment. Mainly due to difficulties with the trades unions, the introduction of the ‘Liner Trains’ was delayed by several years, although the fitting of air brakes to new locomotives went ahead anyway. Later, the authority for this expenditure on the Brush Type 4s was cancelled. As the train air brake had been adopted as standard, the requirement would be met from newly built locomotives. For the Brush Type 4s it was necessary to install an additional compressor, and increase the air reservoir capacity. The existing brake cubicle was displaced by one of the compressors, and the floor plating needed strengthening in order to take the increased weight of the new equipment. The main air reservoir was placed in the corner of the right-hand cab partition area, and two other reservoirs were mounted near the compressors. A further reservoir mounted on the radiator section was connected in series with the existing reservoirs. The air valves were moved to new positions on a floor-mounted frame. The existing triple valve was modified to accommodate the new system, and an additional pipe was mounted on the buffer beam above the steam heating pipe to provide the external connection to the train. In each cab, the desk was modified to accommodate a new combined driver’s brake valve, along with an additional gauge, warning lights and switches. Further warning lights and switches were placed on the bulkhead. The task of incorporating the additional equipment had proved to be something of a challenge for the design staff, as the auxiliary compartment of the Brush Type 4s was already cramped. The Mk1 arrangement was to prove unsatisfactory due to problems encountered with accessing equipment for maintenance purposes, and it was decided to modify the layout. However, locomotives continued to be equipped with it while the new design was worked out. Once the Mk2 arrangement was finalised, it was incorporated into new locomotives as they were built. For those with the Mk1 version, it was necessary for them to be modified to the Mk2 design. Brush provided BR with an estimate of £1,560 per loco to modify the 85 examples that had the Mk1 equipment. Authorisation was given in May 1965 for the conversion of five locomotives while the price for the other 80 was negotiated. When Brush began work, they found it necessary to strip out other components and undertake an extensive cleaning operation including the air brake equipment, before they could begin the conversion work. As a result, the price escalated to £3,400 per locomotive, over double the original estimate. Other modifications to the fleet that were in progress at the time caused delays in releasing locomotives for conversion, leading to the work being spread over 2½ years as opposed to the original timescale of 18 months. The final design change was the introduction of the Mk2 Auto Air Brake equipment in place of the Mk1 variety. It was introduced on Brush-built No D1807 while under construction in December 1964. Considerable problems had arisen when fitting the additional air brake equipment, while trying to retain an arrangement that allowed ease of access for maintenance. It was soon found in service that this had not been achieved with the Mk1. To accommodate the Mk2, space was created by the removal of the radiator drain tanks and some ancillary equipment, the result being a noticeable improvement in access. The removal of the drain tanks meant that an alternative had to be found to minimize the risk of the radiators freezing in cold weather with the locomotives operating at high speed. The solution was the fitting of the now familiar two-part hydrostatically controlled shutters on the radiator air intakes. As the temperature rises in the engine room so the shutters open, to allow cooling to take place. The shutters begin to open when the temperature reaches 158 degrees Fahrenheit and begin to close when the temperature drops below 164 degrees Fahrenheit. The opening of the shutters is often seen when a Class 47 moves off from stationary. A header tank was also provided as part of the revised system, and was fitted with a gauge to indicate the water level. On locomotives Nos D1500-D1519 a low level switch was provided instead to warn the train crew of low water levels. Regards Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Thanks very much for sharing that "Slilley". It certainly explains the "transition" of the locos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Trainshed Terry Posted January 2, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 2, 2013 Phil, this (steam era) picture shows a Brush Type 4 as built without Serck shutters: the radiators are at the near end and there are three fixed grilles at the shoulder. The radiators are in the same place on the green 47 in your picture and the moveable slats of the Serck shutters form two obviously flat panels against the curve of the roof. They open and shut automatically to control the coolant temperature. You beat me to it. But here is a colour image of a Type 4 with the fixed radiator grills at the far end of the loco. http://www.class47.co.uk/c47_zoom_v3.php?img=0646050000210 Terry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
slilley Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Thanks very much for sharing that "Slilley". It certainly explains the "transition" of the locos. Phil My pleasure. No point in just me knowing stuff and not sharing it. Makes a bit of a mockery of spending many hours at the National Archives trawling through documents. Anything else I can help with let me know. That goes for anyone else on the site. Best wishes Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
class"66" Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Very interesting thread!!! lots of good information... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I'll second that class 66! I have a few of these on the work bench and feel these vents will give me the biggest headache! Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cb900f Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 If memory serves me right On the first 20 the shutters were air operated with electric Rad fans as opposed to hydrostatically operated shutters and Rad fans. All the 47s were fitted with a Mobrey float switch to indicate low water level. When we got a bright blue fault light on the locos it was easy to remember which fault had brought up the bright blue. High , low , blow. High water temp Low water level Blower motor Easy to work out which fault Obviously if you had been working the loco hard it would be HWT but would eventually dim when the water cooled. Blower motor would remain illuminated for all the shift. Low water level would cause the fault light to continually brighten/dim as the water slopped about in the header tank due to the rockin and rollin that 47s would tend to do at speed. Apologies for off the topic information. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Phil My pleasure. No point in just me knowing stuff and not sharing it. Makes a bit of a mockery of spending many hours at the National Archives trawling through documents. Anything else I can help with let me know. That goes for anyone else on the site. Best wishes Simon Thanks again Simon for sharing. There are a hundred questions to ask but I'll keep it simple !! Were all the no-boilered examples delivered with a blanking plate over the boiler exhaust Simon ? Do you know from roughly when, were the Brush type 4s delivered new in blue- ie from which loco number ? I want to model a dual braked class 47 (for MGR and freightliner working)in around 1967 or 1968 or maybe 1969. I guess most of those delivered would have retained their original coat of two tone green, but maybe a few brand new ones were blue from delivery. Thanks Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cb900f Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 According to the class 47 site (address in post 12 ) D1953/61 were brought into service in blue. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
slilley Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 According to the class 47 site (address in post 12 ) D1953/61 were brought into service in blue. Pete Thats right, Brush painted them blue, whilst Crewe was still turning out its last few in green. Brush were stuck with plenty of green paint and asked BR what they should do with it!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon020 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I'll second that class 66! I have a few of these on the work bench and feel these vents will give me the biggest headache! Cheers. Sean. The thing is that if we keep pestering Brian, he'll provide us with some lovely delicate etches. I think it's on his to-do list. We mentioned fully operational with DCC control of course... the thing is I think he was serious! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 For clarity, that's D1953-61 delivered in so-called 'Brush Blue,' notable for having double arrows on all four cab sides. The other earlies into blue, were liveried as per Bachmann's model of D1547, but all that lot (with one exception, D1661) retained the tri-grilles at that time. Phil, your best (cheapest most probably) bet is a Serck-fitted two-tone green machine, by '68 or '69 the full yellow ends being fairly predominant. Bachmann's model of 1764 would be a good starting point. These were bargains until relatively recently and shouldn't be hard to obtain. That is the variant that needs a wee bit of fettling (bogies, underframe, windscreen surrounds), but it's decent enough material to work with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 For anyone who's interested, here's a link to one I did earlier: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/217/entry-2559-brush-blue-d1958-major-surgery-for-47148/ EDIT: Jon020 - I just noticed you even commented on that blog entry back in the day (three years ago - I can't believe it!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon020 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 For anyone who's interested, here's a link to one I did earlier: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/217/entry-2559-brush-blue-d1958-major-surgery-for-47148/ EDIT: Jon020 - I just noticed you even commented on that blog entry back in the day (three years ago - I can't believe it!) Streuth, is it really that long ago... good to be reminded.... and here I am still struggling with my 47. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium HillsideDepot Posted February 22, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 22, 2013 This photo http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_hoare/8495183511/sizes/k/in/photostream/ dated May '75 must be pretty late for the original fixed three-part grilles. And just look at the train... Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted November 16, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 16, 2013 Rather than starting a new topic I'll use this one... Does anyone have a good video of the serck shutters opening as power is applied? Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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