GWR Coaling Stage

[melmerby]

Hi all

 

A few questions about the GWR elevated coaling stage as used at the larger sheds.

 

Presumably the coal wagons would be pushed up the slope by a loco.

 

How were they prevented from running back down whilst awaiting unloading?

E.g. was a wheel scotch used or did they rely on the wagon brakes?

What happened when the first wagon was empty? would it be allowed to run down the slope controlled by it's brakes?

How would the next wagon be moved into place for unloading?

Would the wagons have been coupled together when first pushed up the slope?

 

 

Cheers

 

Keith

[LMS2968]

I'm not a GWR type, but I know that the track through the stage extended beyond it. I assume that the loaded wagons were pushed up the slope by a loco and out the other side of the stage, then run back into the stage by gravity, someone controlling their speed by the wagon handbrakes. The empties would therefore be on the right side ready to be taken away.

 

Does that sound about right?

[Philately]

Only that I'd have thought it unlikely that locos would go up the ramp. In the North-East, there would have been a number of wagons between coal trucks and loco so that the latter stayed on the flat. Apologies if this is a statement of the ... obvious!

[fender]

there is a pic of a 45XX at Long Rock on the ramp at the coaling stage in my book 'Working with Steam in Cornwall', so they did go up there.

 

there is also a description of the procedure but unfortunately I don't have the book with me at the moment. iirc, it was basically what LMS2968 said above.

[melmerby]

I'm not a GWR type, but I know that the track through the stage extended beyond it. I assume that the loaded wagons were pushed up the slope by a loco and out the other side of the stage, then run back into the stage by gravity, someone controlling their speed by the wagon handbrakes. The empties would therefore be on the right side ready to be taken away.

 

Does that sound about right?

I know the gradient up to the coal stage 1:35 and also that beyond it 1:80, from some of my books but not the method of use.

The only level bit is where the wagons are unloaded, so once empty they are faced with a fairly steep gradient back down to the approach line.

 

Keith

[southern42]

Hi Keith.

 

Here are a couple of notes I've collected re coaling stages for my layout, Great West Road.

 

They are from An illustrated history of Great West Railway engine sheds, London Division by Chris Hawkins & George Reeve, Wild Swan Publications. Splendid book which I picked up second hand in excellent condition.

 

Old Oak Common, pages 53 and 62

"The [two elevated] tracks [supported on arches] are laid on a gradient of 1 in 80 so that the empty coal wagons can be let down by gravity as required."

 

Didcot, page 284

"Coal arrived at Didcot once or twice aweek, the wagons usually broken out of a train bound for London and brought into the shed by a shunting pilot. They were hoisted up onto the stage when ready, by any engine which happened to be available about the depot."

 

Coaling stage at Didcot Railway Centre. Maybe a source for your questions (and mine!)

http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/guide/engineshed.html

 

Inside Didcot's coaling stage showing trucks with coal loaded from the wagons. Pic from my Great West Road thread, page 2.

 

If you've not been to Didcot, it's really worth a visit.

Will follow your thread and hope to learn something into the bargain.

Best wishes

Polly

[melmerby]

Hi Polly

 

I wonder whether they are still allowed (elf & safety!) to push the tubs out to the edge as they did in olden times, they would have been on a narrow gauge track and up-ended in the hooks on the end.

 

I see there is something across the opening and the tubs are a bit higgledy-piggledy in the photo.

 

Cheers

 

Keith

[Pobrien]

Here are two photographs of St Philips Marsh Bristol.

 

This one shows Pannier Tank 7436 on the slope with mineral wagons leading up to the coaling stage

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bristolsteam/5626785559/in/set-72157626201932662

 

This is the other side of the coaling stage with empty wagons stabled in the siding beyond the stage

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bristolsteam/5821484894/

[southern42]

Hi Polly

 

I wonder whether they are still allowed (elf & safety!) to push the tubs out to the edge as they did in olden times, they would have been on a narrow gauge track and up-ended in the hooks on the end.

 

I see there is something across the opening and the tubs are a bit higgledy-piggledy in the photo.

 

Cheers

 

Keith

 

The coaling stage is still in use as far as I know.

I've seen a video (youtube) where volunteers are sending coal into a loco below on a running day.

Unfortunately, I didn't book mark it. Possibly, it was a "GWR 175 Extravaganza - 08/05/10" video but there are several parts to this one or a GWs 50 2011.

 

Perhaps someone else can help out on this one.

Polly

[Karhedron]

I was there for the GWR 175 celebrations and they certainly had some good coaling demonstrations. However I think that the hard carts in the coaling stage had been pre-charged for the demo. I don't remember any wagons being shunted up the incline (although it could easily have happened while I was riding one of the trains).

[keefer]

OT as it's ex-caledonian and not GW, but found this nice pic of coaling tubs being used

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/holycorner/8150976940/in/set-72157631917451460/

[ChrisH]

LMS2968 has got it about right, although the loco would probably not pass through the stage. The move would stop when the wagon next to the loco was in position for unloading - why go any further?

 

As I remember it, there were no rails inside the stage for the tubs, the platform was steel plated and tubs were simply skidded into position. There were guides on the drop down flap however.

 

The wagons would probably still been coupled when they were pushed up the ramp, there is no reason I can think of to uncouple them, and the previous move would have been to draw the rake out of the holding sidings.

 

Don't forget the upturned tub on the ground next to the stage, they did sometimes get away!

 

Chris

[Castle]

Hi Polly

 

I wonder whether they are still allowed (elf & safety!) to push the tubs out to the edge as they did in olden times, they would have been on a narrow gauge track and up-ended in the hooks on the end.

 

I see there is something across the opening and the tubs are a bit higgledy-piggledy in the photo.

 

Cheers

 

Keith

 

Hi Keith,

 

Yes - most certainly, the 10 cwt tubs have been extensively refurbished and are still in use today. There are two types - one with a front that opens right up for tender locos and one with a narrow door that is used on tank engines. There are quite a few so they are usually charged by one of the volunteers before show time. In steam days there were 15 of them on shed. The smaller locos at Didcot do go up the slope (especially as there are only have 2 coal wagons!) but it is only the smaller steam (Panniers at most) and the diesel shunters. There is a picture in the book Laira Fireman that shows No. 1363 on the ramp at the afore mentioned shed.

 

The loaded loco coal wagons were in a coupled rake of five and pushed right to the buffers at the top of the bank. Therefore, here was no room for a locomotive in the 'shed' section. They went up the bank, propelled by the shed pilot loco, as far as was needed to unload them so there was no need to put a loco inside. I think there is a plate to tell you not to let locos in on the wall but I am not sure... They were then let down on the handbrake individually under gravity as they were emptied. A warning that the loaded tub of coal was due was given by the coal crew by either tapping the metal floor or the water tank feed pipe.

 

There were instances of runaways from the stage - fairly frequently according to Bernard Barlow in his book Didcot Engineman (darn good read!) and to prevent these causing anything other than the requisite mischief, a trap point is fitted near the bottom of the bank. We don't want coal wagons ending up at Paddington now do we?!

 

The thing to remember is that ALL the coal on the Western was hand shovelled from its humble beginnings to the demise of steam in the mid 1960s. 15 to 20 tons per day per man. That is a lot of lives spent shovelling coal...

 

All the best,

 

Castle

Edited December 18, 2012 by Castle

[Andy M]

Locomotives were strictly prohibited from entering the covered areas of coaling stages due to the fire risk. The shed pilot link at most large depots was given to Pannier Tanks, although Laira often used a 1361. There is a photo of 4900 Saint Martin on the ramp at Newton Abbot, proving 'big un's' were used when needed!

 

Regards,

 

Andy.

[melmerby]

Thanks for the replies.

I've been looking at my Lyons' Engine shed books and many, especially the more modern, coaling stages had a notice "Caution Engines must not pass this arch"

However some older and non standard ones had a cut out at the top, presumably for clearance of a loco chimney. (none of these have a notice)

 

Keith

[Andy M]

Here is the photo of 'Saint Martin' at 83A, dated May 1958.

 

Regards,

 

Andy.

[Castle]

Locomotives were strictly prohibited from entering the covered areas of coaling stages due to the fire risk. The shed pilot link at most large depots was given to Pannier Tanks, although Laira often used a 1361. There is a photo of 4900 Saint Martin on the ramp at Newton Abbot, proving 'big un's' were used when needed!

 

Regards,

 

Andy.

 

Hi Andy,

 

Quite right too - the locomotives used in preservation at 81E are the little ones but, as I said earlier, the locomotive in use was the shed pilot. This could have been almost anything that was in steam and in the right place at the right time to be conscripted for duty so the use of a Hall in place of nothing more suitable is quite reasonable I suppose!

 

I love the picture of 4900 by the way - in many ways the most interesting of the Halls as the prototype and ex Saint. It is interesting that the Stars were converted to Castles quite a lot but only this one Saint became a Hall... That is a discussion for another place however!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[LMS2968]

It wasn't too uncommon to use a large engine which was long due for overhaul as the shed pilot. It might be unsuitable for main line use due to steaming qualities or its rough ride at speed, so would fill in its waiting days trundling unhurriedly around the shed!

[AlfaZagato]

Were the coaling stages only found at the largest facilities?

 

I'm used to the American method of a stonking great tower either on the approach to the shed, or randomly out on the mainline.  I'll have to see if the one near me is still up.

[melmerby]

Were the coaling stages only found at the largest facilities?

 

I'm used to the American method of a stonking great tower either on the approach to the shed, or randomly out on the mainline.  I'll have to see if the one near me is still up.

The GWR had facilities which ranged from virtually nothing, e.g. just a stack of coal and baskets or similar to chuck the coal into the coal space on the loco right up to the very large facility at Old Oak Common with twin sided drops. However they hadn't progressed to mechanical coaling towers as had the LMS & LNER.

 

This is a typical medium/large sized coaling stage: (although bigger than many which only dropped on the one side)

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrt2398.htm

 

The wagons were pushed up the ramp by a loco to the loading area where the coal was unloaded from the wagons into small tubs which were manually pushed out to the opening on the side and tipped into the loco.

some stages had multiple drops on the one side.

 

This is a smaller one: (but same principal)

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrsa614.htm

 

Keith

 

EDIT: This is an LMS one however:

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrrm988.htm

 

(visit the main   http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/ site for plenty of pictures!)

Edited January 22, 2014 by melmerby

[Fat Controller]

I wonder to what degree the coaling crews on the Western sorted the coal according to the job the loco was intended to do? Would particular sizes of lump be better for some purposes/locos than others?

I can understand the (G)WR not using mechanical coaling, as Welsh steam coal was notoriously friable, and would not take kindly to being dropped from a height.

[The Stationmaster]

I wonder to what degree the coaling crews on the Western sorted the coal according to the job the loco was intended to do? Would particular sizes of lump be better for some purposes/locos than others?

I can understand the (G)WR not using mechanical coaling, as Welsh steam coal was notoriously friable, and would not take kindly to being dropped from a height.

Bigger depots had a 'passenger side' and 'the other side' but at smaller depots with a single side and wagons shunted up in a raft of several vehicles I would have thought 'selection' was very difficult - unless the wagons were pre-marshalled to allow it and both types of coal were used at the same rate. 

 

certainly locos on top quality passenger work could finish up with lees than top quality coal in Br days with lumps that were too big and thus had to be broken or with a load of rubbish.  Towards the end on the Western a very high percentage of the 'coal' was ovoids which at least weren't a bad size to shovel but which did not burn well unless the fire was really hot and the engine was in really good condition.

[melmerby]

It seems appropriate to post this one up here as well as on my own photo thread.  81E - GW150 - 24.05.1985.  I managed to time the shutter just right.

 

slide477.jpg

Nice shot that. It shows plenty of the small detail which is not often visible.

 

Cheers

 

Keith

[AlfaZagato]

OK, thank you gentlemen.   I ask mostly to decide whether or not to get Mill Lane Sidings coaling stage kit.  Looks neat, but I have to decide whether or not if fits what I plan to do.

[Andy M]

Hi All,

 

Thought I would post a few interior images of the Didcot Coal Stage, taken during the excellent RMWeb tour organised and hosted by Mr Castle last year.

 

Such photos from the working days of steam are very rare, I guess due to the fact it was not a place you would wish to linger! You get an idea of the simplicity of the process, but one can only wonder at the back breaking work the men of the larger sheds must have endured feeding a constant stream of hungry locomotives!

 

 

Hope these are of interest.

 

 

Regards,

 

Andy.