Re-painting schedules during livery changes?

[OnTheBranchline]

I suspect the answer to this question will be "it depends", but how long after the GWR livery was changed by the management would the locos be re-painted? Obviously, the mainline express ones (Kings/Castles/Stars) would be repainted first, but could months or years go by before the shirt-button was painted over with GWR on it?

[Kris]

You would be looking at years. Loco's would be repainted during overhauls.

[DaveF]

An example is GWR Pannier tank 8700, the link is to a photo of it with the GWR shirt button crest still surviving , captioned as taken on 28th February 1960.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/44544845@N08/8637307163/

 

There is a photo of the same loco in "Drawn by Steam" by LC Jacks, pub Bradford Barton dated 1959 with the shirt button crest.

 

IF you think how long it is taking DBS to repaint locos in these very image conscious times.....

 

David

[The Stationmaster]

The simple answer is that once the works painters had received the new Instruction they would usually work to it unless they were also mandated to use up old transfers or the like.  But certainly in BR days - and quite likely in GW days too as it was pretty parsimonious about painting locos - full repainting was only undertaken at Heavy Overhauls, tthus old liveries could survive for a long time on classes/locos that didn't require major attention and complete stripping.

[OnTheBranchline]

The simple answer is that once the works painters had received the new Instruction they would usually work to it unless they were also mandated to use up old transfers or the like.  But certainly in BR days - and quite likely in GW days too as it was pretty parsimonious about painting locos - full repainting was only undertaken at Heavy Overhauls, tthus old liveries could survive for a long time on classes/locos that didn't require major attention and complete stripping.

 

What was the usual amount of time between overhauls for the various classes?

[The Great Bear]

The simple answer is that once the works painters had received the new Instruction they would usually work to it unless they were also mandated to use up old transfers or the like.  But certainly in BR days - and quite likely in GW days too as it was pretty parsimonious about painting locos - full repainting was only undertaken at Heavy Overhauls, tthus old liveries could survive for a long time on classes/locos that didn't require major attention and complete stripping.

 

Sorry for coming back from something so long ago, Mike.

 

So, say, if the boiler was swapped (eg at what the "Book of" series calls Intermediate overhaul) the loco wouldn't get complete repaint? Would they just remove boiler cladding swap in new boiler, put old cladding on and touch up as need be?

 

(My reason for the question is trying to decipher wartime and post-war re-painting especially Halls, whether ones painted black in wartime would have gotten green by nationalisation)

 

Thanks

 

Jon

[28XX]

Good question, Jon. Similarly, we are told that tenders got swopped around as they didn't need as much / as frequent attention as the engines. Black and white or even early colour photos wouldn't show differences in paint batch or levels of fading, but the human eye would notice.

(I have three tiles in my kitchen from a different batch which annoy me still after 13 years).

Edited February 28, 2017 by 28XX

[The Stationmaster]

Sorry for coming back from something so long ago, Mike.

 

So, say, if the boiler was swapped (eg at what the "Book of" series calls Intermediate overhaul) the loco wouldn't get complete repaint? Would they just remove boiler cladding swap in new boiler, put old cladding on and touch up as need be?

 

(My reason for the question is trying to decipher wartime and post-war re-painting especially Halls, whether ones painted black in wartime would have gotten green by nationalisation)

 

Thanks

 

Jon

 

As I understand it Jon it wasn't normally the practice to repaint at an Intermediate unless it was absolutely necessary as any work at that level of repair was restricted to the absolute minimum and the boiler didn't come off the engine (provided we use the term 'Intermediate Repair' in the way Cook introduced that class of repair at Swindon in the 1920s when it was termed 'partial repair').    Post war the situation would have been little different, and in some respects more so, as there was a big backlog of work and a shortage of engines so time under repair would be kept to the minimum and it was very much Cook's philosophy to work in that manner as if effectively deferred the need for General Overhauls and thereby saved money.

 

The only real question mark is in respect of tenders as usual Swindon practice was to give the first available suitable tender to an engine coming out of works but presumably (note that word) tenders would also receive no greater attention than was needed, if any, and equally wouldn't be repainted.  In fact I wonder if in some cases they even went into the tender shop as most work needed on tenders could be carried out at the larger running sheds.

 

Interestingly in his book about Caerphilly Works Eric Mountford also notes that under the new system introduced there in the late 1920s 'engines were only repainted when necessary' - and that could include after a full strip down and boiler change.

[BenL]

An example is GWR Pannier tank 8700, the link is to a photo of it with the GWR shirt button crest still surviving , captioned as taken on 28th February 1960.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/44544845@N08/8637307163/

 

There is a photo of the same loco in "Drawn by Steam" by LC Jacks, pub Bradford Barton dated 1959 with the shirt button crest.

 

IF you think how long it is taking DBS to repaint locos in these very image conscious times.....

 

David

That's a great shot, thanks for sharing David. Does anyone know when 8700 got top feed fitted? I'm wondering if she'd have looked like this in 1947 and give me an excuse to buy the recent Bachmann model of her...

[NCB]

There's a pic of 8700 in the Pannier Papers vol. 4 in 1958 with the top feed. Most of the 87XX engines in that book seem to have had it fitted by 1956, but not all. 8723 is shown at Cardiff General in 1956 without one, 8793 on withdrawal at Swindon in 1963 also without one.

[The Stationmaster]

That's a great shot, thanks for sharing David. Does anyone know when 8700 got top feed fitted? I'm wondering if she'd have looked like this in 1947 and give me an excuse to buy the recent Bachmann model of her...

 

You definitely need dated photos if you can find them - and the important thing to remember is that just because it could be seen with a top feed at a particular date doesn't mean that it still had one some years later as some engines definitely reverted when reboilered.

[tomparryharry]

You definitely need dated photos if you can find them - and the important thing to remember is that just because it could be seen with a top feed at a particular date doesn't mean that it still had one some years later as some engines definitely reverted when reboilered.

 

 

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Thanks for that reply Mike. Eric Mountford did tell me that Taff Vale No28 never made it into GW green, so I'm a bit mystified as to why it currently bears that colour. I'm pretty sure Sir Hadyn of this parish will help out there.

 

Cheers,

Ian.

[DCB]

I guess the Tender shop where most transfers were applied was similar but I know the GW at Swindon didn't have a paint shop for locos, the painters worked round the fitters.  Hence if the boiler was changed they would have to repaint around the boiler bands etc so would probably do the whole of the  boiler cladding. Obviously the GW tried to match black locos with black tenders but some slipped through the net, maybe substitutions at sheds as GW tenders were standard, unlike BR non standard locos and LNER where even identical tenders would have different braking systems.

 The GWR worked on a Mileage basis of around 80 000 miles for repairs,sometimes several Intermediate repairs, axle boxes, pistons etc before a  Heavy overhaul which I believe was where a boiler was lifted/ changed.  Unlike other railways the GW overhauled locos before they got badly run down.  They had to, their flimsy frames needed patching before the boilers gave trouble.  Obviously when boilers were swapped Top feeds, copper capped chimneys  etc came and went so just because 6795 had a top feed in 1946 does not mean it had one in 1962.   With Pannier Tank Engines it may well be the tanks did not need repainting so they did n't paint them , they lift off with lifting eyes.  That said there must have been a certain amount of skulduggery for GWR lettered tenders to survive into 1965, surreptitious transfer changes ahead of special trains?

Edited March 1, 2017 by DavidCBroad

[Karhedron]

That said there must have been a certain amount of skulduggery for GWR lettered tenders to survive into 1965, surreptitious transfer changes ahead of special trains?

The infamous GWR tender was used behind Mogul 6324 and later behind Frilsham Manor was apparently something of a pet of Reading shed. One story is that the tender was in fact repainted but that the coat started to flake off revealing the GWR lettering underneath. Enthusiastic cleaners then "helped" reveal the rest of it. I don't know if the story is true but it would explain the more modern features like the electrification flashes.

 

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by Karhedron

[MarcD]

I don't know very much about GWR repainting however one would suspect the GWR, SR, LMS, and LNER would all follow similar practices as they were all faced with the same financial issues. I know that the LMS did not even start to repaint absorbed Furness Passenger locos until 1926 unless they were taken in for a major repair. It then took until 1930 before all surviving Furness locos were repainted. Most Furness locos were scrapped before they were repainted and some missed out on the 1923-28 all together. LMS painted locos quite often had their numbers changed by BR and they still carried LMS pre-war liveries on their tanks and tenders.

 

Marc   

[adb968008]

The infamous GWR tender was used behind Mogul 6324 and later behind Frilsham Manor was apparently something of a pet of Reading shed. One story is that the tender was in fact repainted but that the coat started to flake off revealing the GWR lettering underneath. Enthusiastic cleaners then "helped" reveal the rest of it. I don't know if the story is true but it would explain the more modern features like the electrification flashes.

I’m trying to guess the colour of Frilshammanor at this point, I assume both loco and tender are black.

[Il Grifone]

There is a patch of green on the firebox and the cab has faint traces of orange/black/orange lining. Conversely, the tender appears to be unlined black.

[Marshall5]

My understanding is that the B.R. built Manors were turned out in lined black but, up to 1957, any GWR built ones were re-painted in unlined black. From 1957 all? Manors were progressively re-painted into lined green.  I would agree that the loco is definitely in lined green.  Whilst many of the 63xx were repainted in lined green from 1957 many remained in unlined black and so it is possible that the tender is, indeed, black.  However, I'm not sure how many tenders would have been turned out in wartime black with GWR lettering.  I think it highly possible that the tender was repainted black by B.R. but some enterprising soul has rubbed through it to reveal the GWR which is actually on the green paint darkened with age and, now, appearing to be black like the rest of the tender?  Just my thoughts on it.

Ray.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Marshall5

[Il Grifone]

My understanding is that the B.R. built Manors were turned out in lined black but, up to 1957, any GWR built ones were re-painted in unlined black. From 1957 all? Manors were progressively re-painted into lined green.  I would agree that the loco is definitely in lined green.  Whilst many of the 63xx were repainted in lined green from 1957 many remained in unlined black and so it is possible that the tender is, indeed, black.  However, I'm not sure how many tenders would have been turned out in wartime black with GWR lettering.  Could it be that the tender was repainted black by B.R. but some enterprising soul has rubbed through it to reveal the GWR which is actually on the green paint darkened with age and, now, appearing to be black like the rest of the tender?  Just my thoughts on it.

Ray.

 

It's not impossible, but the lettering does seem to be in good condition for having any overcoat rubbed off and there is no trace of any BR emblem. It would have been a real labour of love. Or is that green paint on top of the 'R'?

[Karhedron]

My understanding is that the B.R. built Manors were turned out in lined black but, up to 1957, any GWR built ones were re-painted in unlined black. From 1957 all? Manors were progressively re-painted into lined green.  I would agree that the loco is definitely in lined green.

Almost right. The GWR manors were repainted in unlined black at nationalisation which the BR-built ones were initially turned out in lined MT black. However the class passed through Swindon in the early 50s for blastpipe modifications to improve steaming and the BR Manors seem to have acquired unlined black at this time. Prior to receiving lined green, the whole class was in unlined black.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Karhedron

[Dunsignalling]

Sorry for coming back from something so long ago, Mike.

 

So, say, if the boiler was swapped (eg at what the "Book of" series calls Intermediate overhaul) the loco wouldn't get complete repaint? Would they just remove boiler cladding swap in new boiler, put old cladding on and touch up as need be?

 

(My reason for the question is trying to decipher wartime and post-war re-painting especially Halls, whether ones painted black in wartime would have gotten green by nationalisation)

 

Thanks

 

Jon

The economic conditions and the urgent need to refurbish the worst run-down locos at the time meant that, other than the very top-link jobs, like Kings and the best Castles allocated to prestige workings, anything that looked half decent would just be touched up unless the work included swapping parts or tenders that were different colours. Even then, it would be easier and quicker to paint a tender to match the loco.

 

The Halls were a large class and I'd think it highly unlikely that all those in wartime black would have got repainted in three years, especially as there were loads still carrying pre-war paint that would have presumably been in far greater need. 

 

John

Edited December 21, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Compound2632]

I’m trying to guess the colour of Frilshammanor at this point, I assume both loco and tender are black.

 

The Indian Red tender frames are a rather entertaining throwback!

[Karhedron]

There is a patch of green on the firebox and the cab has faint traces of orange/black/orange lining. Conversely, the tender appears to be unlined black.

Agreed, the cabside lining in the clincher that the loco itself is in extremely grubby lined green livery. The tender is harder to pin down as it looks almost the same shade as the loco but we know it cannot be since it is unlined. It also looks like it is cleaner than the loco as the sides appear to have been wiped to keep the GWR lettering visible. Here is another shot which looks like it was probably taken at the same time.

 

[Marshall5]

Agreed, the cabside lining in the clincher that the loco itself is in extremely grubby lined green livery. The tender is harder to pin down as it looks almost the same shade as the loco but we know it cannot be since it is unlined.

 

Whilst I agree that, in this case, the tender (from a withdrawn 63xx) is probably black the lack of lining is not definitive as several 3,500 gal tenders were turned out in unlined green including  behind some Moguls.Thanks for posting the photo.

Cheers,

Ray.

[bécasse]

I saw 7816 arrive at Oxford from the south hauling a couple of Halls one Sunday in June 1965. My memory says both loco and tender appeared to be green through the grime and that the G W R marking looked artificial, but that might have been because that was the only clean part of the loco.