C & L Finescale 4BBOO back to back gauge for RTR 00 scale

[southernelectric]

Can anyone confirm if this C&L Finescale back to back gauge is designed for use with standard RTR 00 locos from Hornby, Bachmann, Dapol, etc, running on standard Hornby/Peco 00 gauge (not P4/EM) track?

 

http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=346_375_376&product_id=3211

 

 

[Ian Fisher]

Think its safe to say it is for 00 gauge.

 

They also market the following:-

 

http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=346_384&product_id=3212

http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=346_361&product_id=3210

[southernelectric]

Think its safe to say it is for 00 gauge.

 

They also market the following:-

 

http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=346_384&product_id=3212

http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=346_361&product_id=3210

 

Thanks. I seem to recall somewhere on here somebody saying it wasn't? But the fact that it appears in the '00' and not EM/P4 sections would suggest it's OK for regular 00. I acquired one from a shop recently and could not believe how far out the tender wheels were on a Bachmann Tornado! I had to push them out quite a bit. The rattling and squeaking subsided substantially after I adjusted the wheels with that gauge. But I was worried it might have been too much adjustment in the wrong direction!

[Ravenser]

Can anyone confirm if this C&L Finescale back to back gauge is designed for use with standard RTR 00 locos from Hornby, Bachmann, Dapol, etc, running on standard Hornby/Peco 00 gauge (not P4/EM) track?

 

http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=346_375_376&product_id=3211

 

 It isn't .

 

It's for Gibson/Ultrascale wheels and 16.5mm track with 1.0mm flangeway, and it gives a 14.8mm B2B,. Useful if you are rewheeling something with an Ultrascale wheel pack - not otherwise

 

DOGA do a suitable gauge for your requirements (labelled OO Intermediate) . http://www.doubleogauge.com/shop.htm

 

Unfortunately they're in the process of changing their Sales Officer so the address on the website for him isn't valid any more - your best bet might be to try their stand

at Peterborough or Warley, when someone should be able to sort something out for you

[Ian Fisher]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/14661-back-to-back-gauge/

 

Seems to be what your thinking about?

 

There is always some variation between wheels and manufacturers, sometimes they are way out.

 

I think it safe though you would know if using an EM or P4 one, the back to back from memory in em is 16.5mm!

[southernelectric]

 It isn't .

 

It's for Gibson/Ultrascale wheels and 16.5mm track with 1.0mm flangeway, and it gives a 14.8mm B2B,. Useful if you are rewheeling something with an Ultrascale wheel pack - not otherwise

 

DOGA do a suitable gauge for your requirements (labelled OO Intermediate) . http://www.doubleogauge.com/shop.htm

 

Unfortunately they're in the process of changing their Sales Officer so the address on the website for him isn't valid any more - your best bet might be to try their stand

at Peterborough or Warley, when someone should be able to sort something out for you

 

OK, so now I'm confused! C&L make no mention of that on their website for this gauge...

[southernelectric]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/14661-back-to-back-gauge/

 

Seems to be what your thinking about?

 

There is always some variation between wheels and manufacturers, sometimes they are way out.

 

I think it safe though you would know if using an EM or P4 one, the back to back from memory in em is 16.5mm!

 

Yes that's the thread but Ravenser posted that this gauge is only suitable for Ultrascale wheels... 

[Ian Fisher]

I suppose its a case of checking how far out or in they are.

 

I have two back to back gauges one spec is an EM gauge society one used on everything bar my Exactoscale wheels which come with a finer tread and their bespoke gauge is ever so slightly wider.

 

From the more chunky wheels to the finest your talking about a possible variance between 0.5mm 14.3mm to 14.8mm

[Oldddudders]

You are right to be wary. Things that are right for OO Gauge may not always be right for the OO gauge that most of us use - i.e. RTR trains on Peco track. I recently bought a number of bufferstops said to be OO/EM/P4 - beautiful castings but intended for use with build-your-own finescale track, typically using the very popular C&L components, no doubt.

[giz]

For rtr wheels on Peco track something like this would be more suitable:

 

http://www.modellers-mecca.co.uk/accessories/9958-pcp4-oo-gauge-back-to-back-gauge-145mm.html

 

(no connection, just picked them because I know they have them in stock)

[tender]

I'm sure Martin Wynne of these parts will have the definitive answer, but as far as I can remember there are three OO standards (maybe more)

 

1. Peco/Hornby that use a 1.2mm flange way (what DOGA refer to as intermediate)

2. DOGA finescale that has a 1mm flange way (RTR needs B2B resetting to 14.8mm)

3. OO-SF that has a 1mm flange way but allows RTR to be used without modification to B2B (assuming its correct in the first place)

 

I'm pretty sure the C&L B2B gauge is for the DOGA finescale standard.

 

If you're using Peco/Hornby track then you need the DOGA intermediate B2B gauge (14.4mm +/-0.05mm) or similar.

 

(DOGA - double O Gauge Association)

 

Hope this helps.

Ray.

[martin_wynne]

Can anyone confirm if this C&L Finescale back to back gauge is designed for use with standard RTR 00 locos from Hornby, Bachmann, Dapol, etc, running on standard Hornby/Peco 00 gauge (not P4/EM) track?

 

http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=346_375_376&product_id=3211

 

No it isn't.

 

The C&L 00 track gauges, 00 back-to-back gauge, and 00 gauge turnout kits with assembled crossings (frogs), are for the DOGA Fine standard which is not suitable for use with unmodified RTR models. The C&L back-to-back gauge is 14.8mm.

 

C&L have caused massive confusion and disappointment over the years by failing to make this clear. To be fair to Pete Llewellyn at C&L this is a situation which he took over from Brian Lewis and I'm not sure even now that he is fully aware of the different 00 gauge standards.

 

For unmodified original RTR wheels the back-to-back should be 14.4mm. The only suitable back-to-back gauge that I know of is from the NMRA for standard H0 models with RP25/110 wheels.

 

edit. The dimensions for RTR wheels are on the DOGA web site at: http://www.doubleogauge.com/standards/commercialwheels.htm

 

There are several suppliers (e.g. Markits) of 14.5mm back-to-back gauges for the finer BRMSB and RP25/88 replacement wheels.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[southernelectric]

Oh crikey! I didn't realise this would be so complicated! You can tell I'm still a novice at all this!!! Thanks for all the replies everyone, greatly appreciated.

 

So, a bit of searching around on here and it seems that DCC Concepts make a gauge of the correct type. Gaugemaster have it in stock on their website under part code DCDCG-14.5 (picture attached - can't seem to link directly to it for some reason)

 

Would this be the correct one to obtain one use on standard unmodified RTR 00 gauge stock running on standard 00 gauge track?

 

And what should I do about the wheels on the Tornado tender that I used the C&L gauge to push out? Push them back in when I get the correct gauge? 

[Kenton]

B2B for OO all a bit of waste of money if you ask me.

 

Buy yourself an electronic calliper and find other measuring uses for it in addition to setting it to 14.5 or 14.8 (or any other number you care to use) for B2B use. They are cheaper (typically £9.99) and just as easy to use and multi-purpose.

[martin_wynne]

DCC Concepts make a gauge of the correct type. Gaugemaster have it in stock on their website under part code DCDCG-14.5 (picture attached - can't seem to link directly to it for some reason)

 

Would this be the correct one to obtain one use on standard unmodified RTR 00 gauge stock running on standard 00 gauge track?

 

Hi,

 

For RTR with original wheels it is actually a bit too wide. The correct back-to-back for RTR wheels is 14.4mm -- see:  http://www.doubleogauge.com/standards/commercialwheels.htm

 

The critical dimension is from the back of one wheel to the front of the flange on the other wheel. This must not exceed 15.2mm. Most RTR wheels have flanges 0.8mm thick, which means the back-to-back dimension should not exceed 14.4mm.

 

If you have widened any RTR wheels to the C&L back-to-back gauge (14.8mm) and you are not hand building track to the DOGA Fine standard, you should adjust the wheels back to 14.4mm. Even if you are using DOGA Fine track, the correct dimension for original RTR wheels would be 14.7mm, not 14.8mm.

 

The 14.5mm and 14.8mm back-to-back gauges are intended for BRMSB and RP25/88 replacement wheels, not for original RTR wheels.

 

It's a shame that the whole thing is such a muddle for the beginner. 

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[southernelectric]

It's a shame that the whole thing is such a muddle for the beginner. 

 

You're not wrong there!

[southernelectric]

B2B for OO all a bit of waste of money if you ask me.

 

Buy yourself an electronic calliper and find other measuring uses for it in addition to setting it to 14.5 or 14.8 (or any other number you care to use) for B2B use. They are cheaper (typically £9.99) and just as easy to use and multi-purpose

 

Just did a search on eBay, found a whole load of them including digital ones for less than a tenner. They look a bit fiddly to use but I'll take your word for it that they are easy to use 

[Kenton]

Press "on" button

Press "zero"

Open to 14.50mm (or whatever)

Tighten thumbscrew

place between wheels opening or compressing wheels on axle as required

next job ....

 

(do not forget to switch off as battery usage can soon mount up)

[southernelectric]

Press "on" button

Press "zero"

Open to 14.50mm (or whatever)

Tighten thumbscrew

place between wheels opening or compressing wheels on axle as required

next job ....

 

(do not forget to switch off as battery usage can soon mount up)

 

Thanks! But do I have to take the wheels off to do it?

[Ravenser]

I'm sure Martin Wynne of these parts will have the definitive answer, but as far as I can remember there are three OO standards (maybe more)

 

1. Peco/Hornby that use a 1.2mm flange way (what DOGA refer to as intermediate)

2. DOGA finescale that has a 1mm flange way (RTR needs B2B resetting to 14.8mm)

3. OO-SF that has a 1mm flange way but allows RTR to be used without modification to B2B (assuming its correct in the first place)

 

I'm pretty sure the C&L B2B gauge is for the DOGA finescale standard.

 

If you're using Peco/Hornby track then you need the DOGA intermediate B2B gauge (14.4mm +/-0.05mm) or similar.

 

(DOGA - double O Gauge Association)

 

Hope this helps.

Ray.

 

Peco use a 1.39mm flangeway on Streamline (Setrack used to be coarser still)  - dunno what Hornby use.

 

1.2 +/- 0.05mm is DOGA OO Intermediate, and the old BRMSB OO track standard - which is still by far the commonest standard used for handbuilt OO track falls within the tolerances...

 

The C+L gauge is for tender's 2. The DOGA Intermediate gauge is your best bet if using RTR on commercial readymade track. It is now specified as 14.4mm, in line with the DOGA OO Intermediate wheel standard

 

The advantage of the brass gauges is that you can press the wheels onto them , and they will then be set to the correct back to back.  So in the case of your tender wheels , you slip the new gauge between the wheels and squeeze them onto it, to reduce the B2B

 

The calipers Kenton illustrates are excellent for measuring what the B2B is (I have an old fashioned dial caliper), and you can in principle measure the wheels on the vehicle- but I'm not convinced they are ideal for setting the wheel to the correct figure 

[southernelectric]

Peco use a 1.39mm flangeway on Streamline (Setrack used to be coarser still)  - dunno what Hornby use.

 

1.2 +/- 0.05mm is DOGA OO Intermediate, and the old BRMSB OO track standard - which is still by far the commonest standard used for handbuilt OO track falls within the tolerances...

 

The C+L gauge is for tender's 2. The DOGA Intermediate gauge is your best bet if using RTR on commercial readymade track. It is now specified as 14.4mm, in line with the DOGA OO Intermediate wheel standard

 

The advantage of the brass gauges is that you can press the wheels onto them , and they will then be set to the correct back to back.  So in the case of your tender wheels , you slip the new gauge between the wheels and squeeze them onto it, to reduce the B2B

 

The calipers Kenton illustrates are excellent for measuring what the B2B is (I have an old fashioned dial caliper), and you can in principle measure the wheels on the vehicle- but I'm not convinced they are ideal for setting the wheel to the correct figure 

 

Thanks...I'll email DOGA and see how I can obtain one as Ravenser mentioned the email address for the shop is not valid anymore.

 

So now I'm curious...what would be the implications, out of interest, of using a finescale back to back gauge (like the C&L one I have) to set the back to back on 00 RTR model wheels with standard wheels and then running the models on standard 00 gauge (i.e. Peco/Hornby) track?

 

When I used the C&L gauge on the Bachman Tornado tender it reduced the rattle and squeaking considerably.

 

Now I don't have anything more than a temporary oval at this juncture, no pointwork, etc. But I am curious as to what would the results would likely be on a slightly more elaborate layout.

 

I would imagine de-railing on points might be one issue?

 

And would the Gaugemaster/DCC Concepts gauge really be a problem to use? The difference between 14.4 and 14.5 millimetres is tiny!

[Ravenser]

So now I'm curious...what would be the implications, out of interest, of using a finescale back to back gauge (like the C&L one I have) to set the back to back on 00 RTR model wheels with standard wheels and then running the models on standard 00 gauge (i.e. Peco/Hornby) track?

 

 

 

You'd probably get away with it almost all the time.

 

But anything so treated would be significantly less reliable/more track sensitive at pointwork than models set to 14.4mm B2B

 

[southernelectric]

anything so treated would be significantly less reliable/more track sensitive at pointwork than models set to 14.4mm B2B

 

Even if I went with 14.5mm instead of 14.4mm? Email sent to DOGA in any case!

[martin_wynne]

I would imagine de-railing on points might be one issue?

 

Hi,

 

Yes.

 

If the wheels are set to 14.8mm back-to-back the check rails will be rendered ineffective and there will be nothing to prevent the wheel flanges from hitting the nose of crossings (frogs) on standard 00 track. The result will be bumpy running with frequent derailments.

 

 

And would the Gaugemaster/DCC Concepts gauge really be a problem to use? The difference between 14.4 and 14.5 millimetres is tiny!

 

Whether it makes any difference will depend on the actual wheels on the model. If the wheel flanges are 0.7mm thick they will be fine. If they are 0.8mm thick they will bump the crossings. The correct back-to-back dimension for RTR wheels is 14.4mm.

 

If you are building your own track there are several options to choose from. Several years ago I wrote a round-up of the options for 00 -- you can find it here:  

 

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_post.php?post_id=567

 

If you are using commercial 00 track you don't have these options. On such track:

 

1. With RTR original wheels (2.8mm wide, 0.8mm flange thickness) set the back-to-back to 14.4mm in accordance with the NMRA H0 standard. Models made in the Far East factories are almost always built to this standard.

 

2. With BRMSB replacement wheels (2.5mm wide, 0.7mm flanges, e.g. Markits) and RP25/88 replacement wheels (2.3mm wide, 0.7mm flanges) set the back-to-back to 14.5mm in accordance with the BRMSB standard.

 

3. With finer replacement wheels (0.6mm flanges, e.g. Ultrascale) set the back-to-back to 14.6mm.

 

In summary -- for RTR original wheels the correct dimension is 14.4mm. There is no reason to use any other, and if you do you risk problems on pointwork.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[southernelectric]

Hi,

 

Yes.

 

If the wheels are set to 14.8mm back-to-back the check rails will be rendered ineffective and there will be nothing to prevent the wheel flanges from hitting the nose of crossings (frogs) on standard 00 track. The result will be bumpy running with frequent derailments.

 

 

 

Whether it makes any difference will depend on the actual wheels on the model. If the wheel flanges are 0.7mm thick they will be fine. If they are 0.8mm thick they will bump the crossings. The correct back-to-back dimension for RTR wheels is 14.4mm.

 

If you are building your own track there are several options to choose from. Several years ago I wrote a round-up of the options for 00 -- you can find it here:  

 

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_post.php?post_id=567

 

If you are using commercial 00 track you don't have these options. On such track:

 

1. With RTR original wheels (2.8mm wide, 0.8mm flange thickness) set the back-to-back to 14.4mm in accordance with the NMRA H0 standard. Models made in the Far East factories are almost always built to this standard.

 

2. With BRMSB replacement wheels (2.5mm wide, 0.7mm flanges, e.g. Markits) and RP25/88 replacement wheels (2.3mm wide, 0.7mm flanges) set the back-to-back to 14.5mm in accordance with the BRMSB standard.

 

3. With finer replacement wheels (0.6mm flanges, e.g. Ultrascale) set the back-to-back to 14.6mm.

 

In summary -- for RTR original wheels the correct dimension is 14.4mm. There is no reason to use any other, and if you do you risk problems on pointwork.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

 

Thank you Martin! And thanks for the link. All makes sense now and confirms what I thought about pointwork implications (in my case not something to worry about....yet)

 

Hopefully I'll be able to source one from DOGA via mail order without having to drive hundreds to miles to a show!