Adding another booster

[250BOB]

I'm not certain what this entails.

 

I currently use a Lenz LZV100 booster, my pal uses the Gaugemaster Prodigy2.

If we had such a big layouts that required an extra booster, does this simply mean we have to buy another booster unit each.

And where on the layout would you position it.?

[RFS]

For the Lenz system you would need an LV102 + TR150 transformer as the second booster.  There needs to be a connection between the LV102 and LZV100 in order to provide the same DCC command stream, but you would have two DCC buses, one connected to the LV102 and the other to the LZV100.   Track would be separated by IRJs on both rails at the boundary between the two.

 

But it all depends on how much power you actually need.  If 5 amps is more than enough for all concurrently running trains, then you could divide the layout by using circuit breakers instead.  The PSX series work very well with Lenz (I have one on mine). You would divide the layout with separate buses as above, but each is connected to one circuit on the PSX which comes with 1,2,3 or 4 individual circuits.  If you get a short on one it only cuts power to that circuit, not the others.  It also means when you have an unexplained short you can at least narrow it down.    But then you could also divide the layout into sections and just use DPDT switches to power them on and off.  So an unexplained short can still be limited to a particular section. 

 

On my layout I have a single track bus and a separate accessory bus for the DCC-controlled turnouts.  The track bus goes through the PSX but the accessory bus does not, so if I get a short caused by driving trains against the points by mistake, I can still change them to correct that. But I also have the bus wires divided into two fed from the single PSX, so I can disconnect one side or the other to assist with fault finding.

[Crosland]

Over there -->

 

Given what you have learned about the length of bus wires you want to split the layout logically so that the bus from each booster is as short as possible. This might mean left and right halves as you look at the layout.

 

The two parts of the layout must be completely isolated from each other (isolation gaps in both rails at the boundaries). Do not simply add another booster to the existing wiring.

 

You do need one common conection between the two boosters. Follow the manufacturers instructions about how this is to achieved. The Lenz documentation is quite good in this respect.

 

Andrew

[250BOB]

Thanks RFS and Andrew,

 

Firstly, I am NOT going to get another booster, well certainly not in the short term.

 

My point of this thread was to get an understanding of what a booster is, and how it is fitted into a current system.

 

I now understand it is not just another LZV100......., you only need the one "brains" on the layout........adding a booster, LV102, is for just exactly that purpose, boosting the power supply.

 

I'm clear now.........thanks for bearing with me guys.

[Ron Ron Ron]

My point of this thread was to get an understanding of what a booster is, and how it is fitted into a current system.

 

I now understand it is not just another LZV100......., you only need the one "brains" on the layout........

Hi Bob,

The confusion may arise from the use of the term "Booster", which is more of a colloquialism for "Power Station", that has entered common usage to mean the same thing.

All DCC systems incorporate at least one "Power Station" (a.k.a. "Booster"), somewhere in the system.

 

The LZV100 houses the Lenz systems "Command Station" (the "brains" if you like) and primary "Power Station" ("Booster"), in a single box.

(n.b. the previous version had them in separate matching boxes and the LZV100 was basically a repackaging of both modules into a single box.)

 

As you say, you can only have one "Command Station" (the "brains"), however you can have several additional "Power Stations" ("Boosters"), up to the particular systems limitations.

 

In loose terms, "Booster" refers to increasing, or boosting the DCC command signals up to track power level and not boosting the existing DCC track power itself.

However having said that, by adding a more powerful "Booster" than the systems basic power provision, you can increase the available track power (for example, by adding a 5 amp "Booster" to a 1.7 amp system), but that is not what the term 'Booster" is meant to represent AFAIK.

 

 

.....adding a booster, LV102, is for just exactly that purpose, boosting the power supply.

In the case of adding LV102's to the Lenz system, it doesn't increase ("boost") the power of the system, but allows the provision of additional "Power Districts", or separate accessory buses etc.

For want of a better description, it might be said that this increases the power capacity of the system.

Maybe someone else can put that in better terms?

 

 

 

.

 

[250BOB]

Hi Bob,

The confusion may arise from the use of the term "Booster", which is more of a colloquialism for "Power Station", that has entered common usage to mean the same thing.

All DCC systems incorporate at least one "Power Station" (a.k.a. "Booster"), somewhere in the system.

 

The LZV100 houses the Lenz systems "Command Station" (the "brains" if you like) and primary "Power Station" ("Booster"), in a single box.

(n.b. the previous version had them in separate matching boxes and the LZV100 was basically a repackaging of both modules into a single box.)

 

As you say, you can only have one "Command Station" (the "brains"), however you can have several additional "Power Stations" ("Boosters"), up to the particular systems limitations.

 

In loose terms, "Booster" refers to increasing, or boosting the DCC command signals up to track power level and not boosting the DCC track power itself.

However having said that, by adding a more powerful "Booster" than the systems basic power provision, you can increase the available track power (for example, by adding a 5 amp "Booster" to a 1.7 amp system), but that is not what the term 'Booster" is meant to represent AFAIK.

 

 

In the case of adding LV102's to the Lenz system, it doesn't increase ("boost") the power of the system, but allows the provision of additional "Power Districts", or separate accessory buses etc.

For want of a better description, it might be said that this increases the power capacity of the system.

Maybe someone else can put that in better terms?

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

Thanks Ron,

All this explanation is much appreciated......and you are right...the word "Booster" has for me, been a form of confusion.  However, I am now crystal clear as to what it all means.

 

I hear this word power districts quite often, and that it helps if the layout is divided up when looking for faults.

 

But surely you dont have a "Booster" for each power district at well over £100 per booster..??

 

So how are power districts formed with the use of one booster...?

 

Thanks....Bob.

[Oldddudders]

And a booster is a booster. They are not, by their nature, necessarily tied to the manufacturer of the DCC system that drives them. Other boosters may be cheaper than lordly Lenz.

[Ron Ron Ron]

And a booster is a booster. They are not, by their nature, necessarily tied to the manufacturer of the DCC system that drives them. Other boosters may be cheaper than lordly Lenz.

 

Only assuming "dumb Booster" usage - subject to the caution mentioned by Dutch_Master.

 

If there is any "smart Booster" type functionality being exercised (e.g. RailCom), then appropriately equipped or matching Boosters will be needed.

 

The cheapest off-the-shelf 5 amp ("dumb") Booster I'm aware of, costs something like £33.

 

 

.

[PaulRhB]

Late to this but as I have an 8 amp booster for my garden railways can I simply split the feed via circuit breakers to different power districts? If that's the case does it matter what make of breaker or just go for a known good one?

I'm wondering if I can split the Bus via a decent tag strip to say 3 pairs which then go to a circuit breaker and off as three individual Bus for a large modular set up.

[Oldddudders]

Late to this but as I have an 8 amp booster for my garden railways can I simply split the feed via circuit breakers to different power districts? If that's the case does it matter what make of breaker or just go for a known good one?

I'm wondering if I can split the Bus via a decent tag strip to say 3 pairs which then go to a circuit breaker and off as three individual Bus for a large modular set up.

The key thing is that the trip in the booster must be set to react more slowly than the trip for each of the power districts - otherwise the whole shebang will shut down every time. This may dictate your choice of trips for the districts.

[Ron Ron Ron]

.....can I simply split the feed via circuit breakers to different power districts? .....

 

To prevent confusion, it might be better to refer them as "Power Sub Districts", as they will still be fed and limited by the output from a single Booster.

 

If you can say what your DCC system is, others may be able to advise on suitable circuit breakers.

 

 

.

[PaulRhB]

Thanks chaps

It's the a Roco Z21 with an Uhlenbrock 8 amp booster. I don't need 8 amps for OO so I was wondering if I can split that output as opposed to adding more lower rated boosters.

[Sunnysa]

With the addition that the ways to connect a booster to a command station varies between various manufacturers and even the way the DCC signal is generated can differ. This can cause errors or even destroy expensive equipment if you get it wrong...

Anything can be destroyed or at least cause an error if not connected properly.

 

 I have two (2) lenz power stations (boosters), an LV101 & LV100, working with  an ESU ECoS.

 

Working very well for 8 yrs with no problems.

 

 Each power station, (obviously) has it's own  power supply. I use 15v AC 5amp for PS.

 

 Point being, because power stations (boosters) are dumb most can be connected to any command station.( With own appropriate power supply)

 

They are not manufacturer dependent.

 

 Cheers

 

 Ian

[PaulRhB]

Paul, the Z21 is already rated at 3 Amps. Unless you have an exceptionally large amount of loco's (with sound) I'd say "skip the booster"

Hi DM, yes it's perfectly good for most needs but I already use the booster with G gauge as a few locos draw 2 amps under load so I need around 6 amps there. With the possibility if using this on the RMweb modular style layout there might be 4-5 locos under load drawing around 4 amps plus potentially several sound locos at idle so the base 3 amp unit would be stretched to its limit all the time. The more powerful booster saves that and is significantly cheaper to replace if there is a problem that gets past it's breaker. What I don't want though is a short trying to pull all 8 amps through a point and melting it OO track is a bit too small compared to G rail section for that.

[Izzy]

Thanks chaps

It's the a Roco Z21 with an Uhlenbrock 8 amp booster. I don't need 8 amps for OO so I was wondering if I can split that output as opposed to adding more lower rated boosters.

Just splitting the booster alone into sub-districts, say via switches, won't split the current supply. Each will still get the full output of the booster, 8amps in this case. You would need to use circuit breakers for each district that had lower or adjustable cut-off rates. Some go down to 1.7amps.

 

Izzy

[PaulRhB]

Just splitting the booster alone into sub-districts, say via switches, won't split the current supply. Each will still get the full output of the booster, 8amps in this case. You would need to use circuit breakers for each district that had lower or adjustable cut-off rates. Some go down to 1.7amps.

Izzy

Hi Izzy

Yes I mention further breakers in the post higher up I'm not an electronic expert but I knew a switch wouldn't split current but I did wonder if I could do as you allude to and supply three, say 3 amp, breakers with 8 amps and then they supply three bus outputs that can be linked independently to three districts. I wasn't sure if one would hog the supply if I did that. I can't find any direct diagrams to say yay or nay as it always seems to assume you buy 3x 3amp booster with a circuit breaker each from what I've seen.

 

On this simple diagram

Red = command station

Black = 8 amp booster

Orange = Circuit breaker 2-3amp?

Green wires would be three independent BUS for the track.

Now will this work ?

 

[Oldddudders]

Yes! This page offers some of the options on the market.

 

http://www.tonystrains.com/products/type_powerprotect.htm

[PaulRhB]

Ok many thanks Ian that seems exactly what I need and useful for modular or home use as I can just use one of the outputs.

I'll contact them to see if they recommend it for the Z21 or just certain systems.

[PaulRhB]

Going with what's available from a local suppier here is my working out of what I need, any suggestions or errors please point out

 

PLEASE NOTE BOOSTER & BREAKERS PART NOT PROVED.

 

[PaulRhB]

It appears that all breakers are not the same so this particular option may be dead in the water. And there I was believing NMRA spec meant they were all the same standard

I'm not prepared to experiment with nearly £600 of command and booster equipment so unless I can find evidence of the breakers being used with an Uhlenbrock booster I think I might have to consider the more expensive multiple booster route if I choose to do this for the modular layouts.

[Izzy]

It appears that all breakers are not the same so this particular option may be dead in the water. And there I was believing NMRA spec meant they were all the same standard

I'm not prepared to experiment with nearly £600 of command and booster equipment so unless I can find evidence of the breakers being used with an Uhlenbrock booster I think I might have to consider the more expensive multiple booster route if I choose to do this for the modular layouts.

 

Having had a while to look at this since my problems with trying to use a separate CB I am coming to the view that it isn't probably a good idea to have CB's in-line, i.e. one in the command station/booster, and then another before it, a recipe for conflict between them I feel, since these days they are all mainly 'clever', both checking to see if there is a real short or just extra drain from sound equipped locos, and if the short still exists. That the extra CB's must be set so they can trip before the 'main' one is another issue to be tackled.

 

Although it is the considerably more expensive route to take, having separate boosters might thus be the more reliable and flexible option in the longer term.

 

Izzy

[PaulCheffus]

Hi

 

I use circuit breakers (NCE EB3) in line with the command station (Lenz LVZ100) and haven't had an issue. The circuit breakers are set to shutdown quicker than the command station so the command station doesn't see the short.

 

I also use a NCE EB1 (this was before MERG provided their own cutout) with my MERG Command station again in line and it works perfectly.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[RFS]

I also use Lenz LZV100 but with a PSX circuit breaker in line with it.  One of the options with the PSX is that you can choose at what voltage you want it to trip.  Plus you can also set it to automatically reset after 2 seconds, which is useful if the short is an intermittent one.

 

I also have separate track and accessory buses both powered off the same LZV100.  However, the accessory bus bypasses the PSX so if I get a track short I'm still able to operate accessories, with this most usually involving correcting the position of the point I forgot to change! The accessory bus doesn't give shorts - if did then the LZV100 would itself trip.