Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[ChrisN]

Although I've used Tenshodo SPUDs for motorised bogies, I doubt they'd be suitable for larger wheels because the gear ratio is about 14:1, which would be far too little reduction.  In case anyone picks up the wrong idea, I think you meant 0-16.5 (rather than 009) in your earlier reference, since these are 16.5 mm gauge units.

 

Mike,

I might be wrong but I had assumed there was also a 9mm wheel spacing version.

 

If I used these then I would motorise the tender so the wheels would be about 12mm.

[NCB]

2-4-0s and 0-4-2s are dead easy if you whack twin compensation beams on the drivers, and have the third non-driving axle pivoted about it's centre. Balanced right you can get weight distributed evenly over all 6 wheels, which helps with road-holding, adhesion and pickup. I've just finished a chassis for a Metro tank in 3mm this way, and it gives better running than my previous method, which was a fixed leading driver, pivoted rear driver, and a sort of pony truck for the leading axle, with weight balanced over the drivers. Here's a pic:

 

:

 

You can just see the lower compensation beam, sitting above the lower sideframe; it's pivoted in it's centre by a cutdown 1.5mm axle, which can be seen projecting slighty above the centre of the top sideframe. There's enough room on the leading driven axle to stick a High Level Slimliner Compact+ gearbox.

 

The compensation beams are similar in principal to those I used in my Rhymney M; see:

 

 

 

Had the beams etched. If you're doing a lot of scratch building it might be worthwhile teaching yourself enough CAD to draw artwork for etching; I went in that direction because I was absolutely hopeless doing things like drilling holes accurately where they ought to be :-(

 

I've both an Albion and a Seaham on my to-do list, and I'll be using this approach.

 

Nigel

 

 

[Donw]

Don,

Thank you for this.  I assume if the drive shaft is from the tender then the working wheelbase of the locomotive is measured from the back tender wheel to the front non-bogied wheel on the loco?

 

No the drive shaft should have universal joints either end. Some examples of Jerry Clifford's work here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/52798-bath-queen-square/page-14

 

Don

[Simond]

2-4-0s and 0-4-2s are dead easy if you whack twin compensation beams on the drivers, and have the third non-driving axle pivoted about it's centre. Balanced right you can get weight distributed evenly over all 6 wheels, which helps with road-holding, adhesion and pickup.

 

Nigel

Fully agree!

 

And, if you fix the bogie pivot height, you can do 0-4-4 & 4-4-0s in the same way, but I’d note that springing, whilst much more bother to set up, can provide more weight on the drivers for traction purposes.

 

Best

Simon

[Edwardian]

2-4-0s and 0-4-2s are dead easy if you whack twin compensation beams on the drivers, and have the third non-driving axle pivoted about it's centre. Balanced right you can get weight distributed evenly over all 6 wheels, which helps with road-holding, adhesion and pickup. I've just finished a chassis for a Metro tank in 3mm this way, and it gives better running than my previous method, which was a fixed leading driver, pivoted rear driver, and a sort of pony truck for the leading axle, with weight balanced over the drivers. Here's a pic:

 

m148.jpg:

 

You can just see the lower compensation beam, sitting above the lower sideframe; it's pivoted in it's centre by a cutdown 1.5mm axle, which can be seen projecting slighty above the centre of the top sideframe. There's enough room on the leading driven axle to stick a High Level Slimliner Compact+ gearbox.

 

The compensation beams are similar in principal to those I used in my Rhymney M; see:

 

 

m29.jpg

 

Had the beams etched. If you're doing a lot of scratch building it might be worthwhile teaching yourself enough CAD to draw artwork for etching; I went in that direction because I was absolutely hopeless doing things like drilling holes accurately where they ought to be :-(

 

I've both an Albion and a Seaham on my to-do list, and I'll be using this approach.

 

Nigel

 

That sounds like a good solution, though, even with pictures, frankly I do not understand what you have done!

[Simond]

 

you know how a see-saw works. 

 

So imagine two see-saws next to one another - these are the compensation beams. 

 

You could then balance two planks (the axles) across the seats of the see-saws, and then, they could be parallel to the floor and one another, or, you could press down on one plank, and the others would move up to accommodate the deflection you caused.

 

This is compensation, and it means that all 4 driving wheels can stay in touch with the rails through a range of movement, maybe a couple of mm.

 

Of course, these see-saws only provide two of the legs, and a milking stool needs three legs, so the third leg is created by supporting the loco on the centre of the trailing axle, which can then rock from side to side, to cope with any roughness in the track.

 

Does this help?

best

Simon

[Edwardian]

 

you know how a see-saw works. 

 

So imagine two see-saws next to one another - these are the compensation beams. 

 

You could then balance two planks (the axles) across the seats of the see-saws, and then, they could be parallel to the floor and one another, or, you could press down on one plank, and the others would move up to accommodate the deflection you caused.

 

This is compensation, and it means that all 4 driving wheels can stay in touch with the rails through a range of movement, maybe a couple of mm.

 

Of course, these see-saws only provide two of the legs, and a milking stool needs three legs, so the third leg is created by supporting the loco on the centre of the trailing axle, which can then rock from side to side, to cope with any roughness in the track.

 

Does this help?

best

Simon

 

 

Yes, thank you. Can't say I could go from there to building such a unit without more, but that is a helpful explanation of the principle.

[Simond]

I’m pleased. About half way through I was wondering if it would all make sense!

 

Best

Simon

[Edwardian]

I’m pleased. About half way through I was wondering if it would all make sense!

 

Best

Simon

 

Simon,  it made perfect sense, thank you.  I just need a practical example to work from  (I have my own Seaham tank project at some point).

[ChrisN]

2-4-0s and 0-4-2s are dead easy if you whack twin compensation beams on the drivers, and have the third non-driving axle pivoted about it's centre. Balanced right you can get weight distributed evenly over all 6 wheels, which helps with road-holding, adhesion and pickup. I've just finished a chassis for a Metro tank in 3mm this way, and it gives better running than my previous method, which was a fixed leading driver, pivoted rear driver, and a sort of pony truck for the leading axle, with weight balanced over the drivers. Here's a pic:

 

m148.jpg:

 

You can just see the lower compensation beam, sitting above the lower sideframe; it's pivoted in it's centre by a cutdown 1.5mm axle, which can be seen projecting slighty above the centre of the top sideframe. There's enough room on the leading driven axle to stick a High Level Slimliner Compact+ gearbox.

 

The compensation beams are similar in principal to those I used in my Rhymney M; see:

 

 

m29.jpg

 

Had the beams etched. If you're doing a lot of scratch building it might be worthwhile teaching yourself enough CAD to draw artwork for etching; I went in that direction because I was absolutely hopeless doing things like drilling holes accurately where they ought to be :-(

 

I've both an Albion and a Seaham on my to-do list, and I'll be using this approach.

 

Nigel

 

Nigel,

Thank you.  I have yet to master brass and soldering but all this information is useful.  To approach something like this will have to wait until I start on the locos in earnest which may be a while.  I assume the motor sits on the rocking frame?

 

I do not intend to scratchbuild vast quantities of  locos so I am not sure if learning CAD and doing etches would be of help.

[ChrisN]

No the drive shaft should have universal joints either end. Some examples of Jerry Clifford's work here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/52798-bath-queen-square/page-14

 

Don

 

Don,

Thank you.  I shall certainly think about this method.

[ChrisN]

 

you know how a see-saw works. 

 

So imagine two see-saws next to one another - these are the compensation beams. 

 

You could then balance two planks (the axles) across the seats of the see-saws, and then, they could be parallel to the floor and one another, or, you could press down on one plank, and the others would move up to accommodate the deflection you caused.

 

This is compensation, and it means that all 4 driving wheels can stay in touch with the rails through a range of movement, maybe a couple of mm.

 

Of course, these see-saws only provide two of the legs, and a milking stool needs three legs, so the third leg is created by supporting the loco on the centre of the trailing axle, which can then rock from side to side, to cope with any roughness in the track.

 

Does this help?

best

Simon

 

 

Simon,

Thank you.  It certainly does make sense and I can now see the compensation beams on Nigel's locos.  It is another skill set to learn.

[ChrisN]

I am afraid this is a silly post, but is probably necessary.

 

I was going to post, and may well have done, a question about the Bachmann Thomas Red Coaches as the brake third will be just right to put with the First Class saloon as 1) it is a brake, and 2) it can carry the servants needed, although as they are going to friends I am not sure how many they will need?  (Henderson at Ty Mawr the young Englishman's butler would not be very happy if another butler turned up, but I suppose the butlers acted as valets as well.?  Lady X will have her personal maid, the groom will be in the horse box so not sure who else?) 

 

If I did not post the question, and I cannot find it on my thread, then it popped up fortuitously on someone else's thread.  I have looked at the two most likely candidates and drawn a blank. This is the question.  Are the Bachmann red coaches good enough.  The answer came back that they needed detailing.  Someone else said that there was another kit, 3D print or something.  This is my question, what was the answer?

 

Just to let you know, modelling time is very limited at the moment and my stuff has to be regularly packed away so no painting is being done.  However, the 6T vans are nearly finished, updates when phots are done, and I am working on the windows of another set of laminations from a silhouette file cut.  Good news, two more are on the way!  (Thanks Andy!)  Once the windows are done, laminating will start and the beading on the first coach will continue.

 

Anyway, if you have been, thanks for looking.

[Northroader]

Gary (Blue Lightning) of the Oak Hill thread has a slightly modified set of these coaches on his line.http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107470-oak-hill-lbscr-secr-1905ish/page-52

For the rest, the nuances of upgrading footmen to valets etc., you must watch more “Downton Abbey”

[ChrisN]

Gary (Blue Lightning) of the Oak Hill thread has a slightly modified set of these coaches on his line.http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107470-oak-hill-lbscr-secr-1905ish/page-52

For the rest, the nuances of upgrading footmen to valets etc., you must watch more “Downton Abbey”

 

Gary (Blue Lightning) of the Oak Hill thread has a slightly modified set of these coaches on his line.http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107470-oak-hill-lbscr-secr-1905ish/page-52

For the rest, the nuances of upgrading footmen to valets etc., you must watch more “Downton Abbey”

 

Northroader,

Thank you.  I thought there was a thread that said these are ok but try this.  I may have dreamt it.  I am fairly certain Gary's mention of them occurred when I was thinking of posting about them.  I am surprised I remember my name some days!

[ChrisN]

Well, this week  have achieved in the region of 3 hours modelling so there may be something to show for it when I get chance to take some pictures.  In the meantime, having just posted on another thread that when you are not looking for something it will turn up, or you will have a flash of inspiration I decided to Google D&S Stroudley Coaches and this turned up.  I am sure someone mentioned it on another thread.  I am not too impressed that it appears that the lid roof does not fit, however, it does have brake gear which is what I would have expected and gas lighting.  I will have to do some research or post a question as to when it got both but as the Thomas red coaches cost about £27.00 and this is £30.00 there is not a lot of difference particularly as there will need to be some modification.  There is no rush, I will have to put it on my Christmas list, no birthdays before then.

 

So Mr Price mentioned a coffin, here it is,

 

 

It is of course a box file.  The spring has been taken out of the paper holder. 

 

 

The card has been cut to size, and polythene foam has been cut to make the sections and glued down with PVA.  Why do I need this I hear you say?  Should not these figures be on the layout?  Yes they should but the layout has no scenery, some figures are for the other layout not yet started, and I have more figures than I could really use.  No that is not quite true, once it is all done, with the parade and crowd and the market on the other layout all will be well, but in the meantime I will know where they all are.

 

Finally here is the Albion tender,

 

 

This is the Cambrian standard 4 wheel tender which would have gone on the Volunteer.  It is a 3D print from Sparkshot Creations.

 

 

You see it has a bottom.  (Well I suppose it would or the coal and water would fall out.)  It is quite fragile so if I started to hack it about to get a Tenshodo spud in there it might not do very well.  I could possibly scratchbuild one.  I could also possibly scratchbuild one around a spud.  We shall see.  I would like to do something clever like Nigel suggested but that is a bit further away.  Building coaches is taking more time than I had expected and more coaches are being added to the list.  Still there are only a finite number to build and then it is onto brass and soldering.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

 

 

[ChrisN]

Gary (Blue Lightning) of the Oak Hill thread has a slightly modified set of these coaches on his line.http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107470-oak-hill-lbscr-secr-1905ish/page-52

For the rest, the nuances of upgrading footmen to valets etc., you must watch more “Downton Abbey”

 

Sorry, forgot to mention.  The nearest I ever got to Downton Abbey was when my wife and one of my daughters-in-law had a girly night in watching a video of them, so I will just have to make it up as I go along.  No change there then!

[Mikkel]

Hi Chris. What a good idea to build a "personnel carrier", so to speak. I will remember that for our upcoming house move.

 

Your earlier question about Butlers is interesting. It made me wonder whether a Butler would travel on first class with his employers?

[ChrisN]

Hi Chris. What a good idea to build a "personnel carrier", so to speak. I will remember that for our upcoming house move.

 

Your earlier question about Butlers is interesting. It made me wonder whether a Butler would travel on first class with his employers?

 

Mikkel,

I hope your house move goes well.  I have no idea how buying and selling houses works in Denmark but in England and Wales, it is different in Scotland, it can be a long process and very stressful, but now at the end with computer bank transfers of money the end happens very quickly.  All the best.

 

Generally I would think that the butler does travel First Class with his employer, waiting on him I should think, but in this coach it might be a bit cramped, unless he sat with the governess and the children.  (I think he might prefer third class.)

[uax6]

That's an interesting question. The LNWR built some bogie Family saloons which had internal gangways, but still had separate areas for the servants, but they could now get to the 'toffs' area when required. I wonder if the earlier ones had solid partitions between each class?

 

Andy G

[NCB]

Fully agree!

 

And, if you fix the bogie pivot height, you can do 0-4-4 & 4-4-0s in the same way, but I’d note that springing, whilst much more bother to set up, can provide more weight on the drivers for traction purposes.

 

Best

Simon

 

Simon

 

True, I've done a Dukedog chassis this way. Works nicely.

 

Question: I'm not sure about your comment about springing. I'm assuming that an engine has a fixed amount of weight, so that it all that's available no matter what sort of suspension you use. So I don't quite see how springing would increase weight on the drivers. With the Metro and double beam compensation, then roughly the same amount of weight is carried by each of the 6 wheels. Altering the balance point of the body can very this slightly; further back and there's more on the drivers, but you have to be careful that you don't take too much weight off the leading wheels.

 

Cheers

Nigel

[Simond]

Nigel,

 

Dukedog s are a challenge. I just built a model of Tre Pol & Pen, and played around with it lots to get the haulage I was looking for (5 bogies up 1in 100 seemed a suitable target)

 

Compensation wouldn’t do it, and the issue is getting weight into the loco, as the boiler is quite small, and the firebox is quite full of motor, and the weight distribution is therefore not ideal.

 

Effectively, I have hard springs on the leading coupled axle, and softer ones on the rear, the bogie is rigid. The springs work both ways, ie the loco is not sitting on the adjuster screws, and the weight distribution is something like 20% on the bogie, 50% on the leading axle, and 30% on the rear.

 

If you were compensated, you’d find something more like 50%-25%-25%, so the springing gives you around 30% more useful weight on the drivers, thus more haulage capacity.

 

On the level, she’ll haul rather more:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/79052-porth-dinllaen-in-0/?p=3000889

 

Best

Simon

Edited February 4, 2018 by Simond

[Donw]

My Bulldog is the best runner I have the bogie is a simple pivot but all four drivers are sprung with a whitemetal body there is plenty of weight.  The motive power is a Portescap RG7. Springing needs a bit of weight to workproperly.

 

Don

[NCB]

Simon

 

Nice! Think it may depend on the scale used. Wasn't keen on it in 4mm and even less so in 3mm. Here's the chassis and loco:

 

 

 

The boiler has a lot of lead in it, the white metal castings help, and there's some lead under the cab floor. The loco balances over the leading driver, which is where I want it. So about 2/3 of the weight is carried by the drivers, shared equally between all 4 wheels, and 1/3 by the bogie.

 

Haven't tested it to its limit, yet, but I've had it pulling the equivalent of 4 bogie coaches with no sign of slipping, which is more than it's likely to pull in practice. Biggest weakness is that I could only squeeze in a Mashima 9/16 open frame motor, which pulls OK but isn't good at slow speeds.

 

Did try partial springing  in some 6-coupled locomotives. Middle axle fixed and driven, rear axle pivoted, front axle sprung, and weight just rear of middle drivers. Works OK, but with experience I think double beams on the rear two axles and pivoted front axle would be bettter, and I'm about to give that a try.

 

Nigel

Edited February 4, 2018 by NCB

[Simond]

Nice model, Nigel

 

If you’ve got 33% on the bogie & each axle, it seems like a pretty good outcome - if you equalise, the two driving axles will (obviously) share whatever the bogie doesn’t take,

 

There is another approach - to equalise the bogie & lead axle and fix the back axle - this may be better than the other route. I did this on a rebuild of a pal’s 2P, many years back, and whilst I never tried to find its limits, the rice pudding was skinned rather more easily than before I started on it!

 

Best

Simon